My thank you and my confession

[SAYIT]

...At the end of the day, I am done with the 'Palestinians'. Either form your peaceful state now or forever forget about it.

Pro Palestinian does not mean Anti Israel at all......and am affronted by your suggestion quite honestly...steve

Yeah, I can see how one such as you would be, NaziBoy, but your indignation is as bogus as your "love" for the peeps of the region. You're a bigoted fraud and everyone here knows it.

Well that may be your opinion but not others,I have many pm's even from your side of the wall.....I think Teddy's post was excellent.....but your response as usual is chronic......it is impossible to dialogue with you it really is..steve

You earlier claimed to be "affronted" by Teddy's post and there are 2 good reasons why you can't "dialogue" with me:
1) you're a fuckin' lying anti-Semitic twit (and everyone here knows it) and,
2) you're a flaming idiot (and I mean that with all due respect).

Coming from you,I mean what a sham you are,Anti Everyone with such venom...but you talk bullshit....No one is listening to you,by the way STOP this practice of speaking for others....You just don't like being exposed for the Curr you truly are...I can only feel Pity for you..steve

While I don't understand your denials, I do understand your obvious hate for Jews, Bubba, and despite your lame denials you fool no one. Sieg Heil.

 

[Phoenall]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

Then the Pro Israel must by the same criteria not be anti Palestinian

 

[Phoenall]

I have had this post on my mind for a long time, but I have found that it will take too much to just post, so I'll compose it locally before posting it publicly.

Which I have now done.

I don't know how to start. The confession or the thank you first.

I guess I'll say thank you first for now. I have been a member of tripadvisor.com and have posted and read almost exclusively in the Israel forums. Reading there, I planned my own trip to Israel and that experience showed me that Israel is an awesome place to be able to visit and not at all the 'war zone' that most of the world believes it to be. However, discussing the politics of the area there is a big no-no. So I wanted to find a place that people discussed the politics of the area, and that is how I landed here. I started as pro-Israel, but wanted to truly attempt to open my mind to try to learn the 'other side' of the story. Well, I have. I have learned quite a bit from those who are Pro-Palestine; not only from the information that 'they' have posted, but also the sources and the means in which most of it has been posted. And I must confess, it hasn't done much to change my stance. I will admit there were times, it could have, or maybe should have, but upon further investigation, I must say that most of the information was based upon an emotional response or a twisty turny path through reality. I have learned a lot about the history of the region and a lot about the incidents that occurred in the past and the present that keeps this conflict (unfortunately) alive. I have learned that to be Pro-Palestine is just another way of being anti-Israel.

Suffice it to say: as others have said, it is like trying to figure out which came first. The chicken or the egg. That seems to be at the heart of the conflict currently. However I am still somewhat on the side of the Israelis; as I think that everything was hunkey dorey while the Ottomans and the British encouraged the Jews; no, invited the Jews to come back to Israel and form a homeland for the Jews. But between the Jews and the Arabs; the Mufti of Jerusalem decided to incite the Arabs against the Jews. Hebron 1929. But the hatred of the Jews started well before that. Search out the real truth and you will see it too. Around 150 BCE the King of Syria wanted to outlaw the Sabbath and circumcision. Funny that the City of San Fransisco wanted to outlaw circumcision in the early 21st century as well. Coincidence? Moving forward, the Jews have been persecuted all through the common era all over Europe. But nobody talks about that, especially the 'pro-palestinian' crowd. All through the middle ages, European country after country expelled the Jews, or at the very least wanted to take away their property and turn them into slaves. For what? Even Martin Luther wanted the world to hate the Jews. The Moslems have never been persecuted like that. Ever.


On the other side of my coin, my confession.

Well, as I said, the Ottoman's, the British, and even some of the Arabs decided that after centuries of Jewish persecution that the Jews should be allowed; no, invited to immigrate back to and re-establish their homeland in Israel; well why not? The rest of the world has hated them and persecuted them for hundreds of years. Yes, there were people that would be displaced in the process. I feel sorry for them. However, those 'peoples' were also on one hand invited to stay and become part of the new nation; yet on the other hand encouraged to flee in hopes that (from the neighboring countries) the Jewish state would not last. Or to say bluntly, "The jews will be driven into the sea". But they were not. So, I feel it is all on the Arabs that they 'lost' "Palestine". Deal with it! They could have stayed as many other Arabs did. Just look at Tel Aviv-Yafo. Yes, it is a shame that some Arabs were displaced, or at the very least, felt like they had to leave; or at the very worst some were expelled. In 1948, sure many Arabs/Moslems were expelled from Israel (abt 750,000), but at the same time more like a million Jews were expelled from the neighboring Arab countries. AT THE SAME TIME! In 1948. And I still really have a very hard time with the fact that there were about 750,000 "refugees" from "Palestine" yet now there are more like 6.5 million! Sounds more like a welfare state than anything else.


So to wind down, in 1948, the British decided they were done with trying to mediate the 'civil war' between the Arabs and the Jews and gave it over to the UN. The UN partitioned the area and the Jews said, (paraphrased) "Ok we will take what we have now and declare a democratic country right here with what we have". Over the years as we all know, the Arab countries disagreed, but have lost conflict after conflict; war after war. And many agreements and occords later: So as I have posted before, now that the Palestinians are where they are with the areas that they control, why shouldn't they do the same as the Israelis did in 1948? Declare an independent democratic state right where they are and can? Why not? Sorry 'Bibi'! I see that as the only solution, otherwise, the "Palestinians" are going away. Or as Lope stated, maybe just give up and let Israel declare the whole of the country as Israel and let the 'Palestinians' become Israeli's.

At the end of the day, I am done with the 'Palestinians'. Either form your peaceful state now or forever forget about it.

Pro Palestinian does not mean Anti Israel at all......and am affronted by your suggestion quite honestly.......I have always said a free Palestine and a free Israel....Peace between these Semitic Peoples.

I will not even bother to go into how Israel became a nation and used the UN (an organization Israel have snubbed consistently since 1948) but the UN recommendation was only that...It was Never Ratified by the UN Security Council to be made Law....It never was.

I have lived in Israel and visited on numerous occasions and get on well with the majority of Jewish and Palestinian people.

For your information Jews were expelled from mainly 1948 onwards because of the treatment the meated out to Palestinians........in an effort to get their own homeland.Jews had lived for centuries in Arab lands prior to that with little or no problems.

The Arabs misjudged the Zionists/Jews in my opinion but for you to say all of Palestine should be Israel,and the Palestinians be happy about that,merely shows how out of depth and niave you are Teddy.....It is not what the Palestinians want or should aspire to.

It is clear that throughout your wanderings you did not dialogued in any meaningful way with any Palestinians,otherwise you would not post such errant nonsense at times.

Your summation is clearly Pro Jewish,which I personally have no problem with at all Teddy.........but it is a shame for all of us on here (because your prose is excellent and interesting) that you eliminated the bias you had before leaving for Israel and been more open minded and been more diligent during your foray there.

Well you may be done with the Palestinians Teddy......but I never will be done with either the Jews or Palestinians because I have found the majority of both wonderful people....Palestinians have prior to 1930's never been against Jews..................quite the reverse or Arabs in the main......The real Culprits against Jewish people.....HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CHRISTIANS......It is they that should Carry the Guilt...........

I would like to thank you Teddy for having the courage of your convictions,albeit too slanted against the Palestinians,in my humble opinion, because you did not do due diligence properly whilst you were away.Again Thanks......steve

BULLSHIT as the arab muslims have used res 181 to create their state fully expecting the world to step in and go to war with the Jews. When it didn't turn out like that, and they found they needed to negotiate a settlement they realised they had lost.

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians have rejected their own state on 3 occasions...........Under the UN mandate they chose War over Peace........................

Two other solutions have been rejected.............and on both of these deals Israel was ready to give up land and pull people out of their homes to do so.............

The Palestinians rejected both of these.......................

They have no one to blame but themselves.........on another thread I posted this data...........including the UN resolution and the maps from the deals with Israel............

With Strings attatched......why can't you tell the whole story properly and honestly for a change.....instead of these one liner inaccurate news grabs.steven

What strings were agreed to then, or are you talking about the arab muslim illegal pre conditions they keep demanding. When you negotiate you start at the ends and meet somewhere in the middle, the arab muslims want to start at their end and expect the other side to capitulate . So do link to these "strings" that had to be agreed first before Israel would talk about anything else, then look at the arab muslim "strings"

 

[Phoenall]

Really, like a Trojan horse then hey! Read this part again, and then ask why? Also reread the book of Esther and see just how Jews are, although probably just a fable, first a lie, then Esther as a Trojan horse, the her Uncle causing trouble , then an massacre, and then a celebration!

Read below again, and then tell us that its a problem with the Palestinians, they didn't create anti semitsm.

Around 150 BCE the King of Syria wanted to outlaw the Sabbath and circumcision. Funny that the City of San Fransisco wanted to outlaw circumcision in the early 21st century as well. Coincidence? Moving forward, the Jews have been persecuted all through the common era all over Europe. But nobody talks about that, especially the 'pro-palestinian' crowd. All through the middle ages, European country after country expelled the Jews, or at the very least wanted to take away their property and turn them into slaves. For what? Even Martin Luther wanted the world to hate the Jews. The Moslems have never been persecuted like that. Ever.

Many nations had no problems with the Jews until certain people started the Blood Libels, mostly religious fanatics. But only one group has it as a religious command to kill the Jews because they refused to fall down and worship their leader. Now that is the worst form of anti Semitism that you can get.
You will find that in Europe the muslims are about to be persecuted worse than that, and it is all down to their arrogance and vanity

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

So true.

It is a way to hate Jews and feel really great about it! It is a way to accessorize your wardrobe with some really hip keffiyehs. It is a way to stick it to da man by supporting savagery. Its a way to march in lockstep with a huge majority as they persecute a tiny minority. It is a way to find a socially acceptable cult where you don't need to think, don't need to tell the truth, don't need to be fair or thoughtful or decent in any way -- you just have to repeat the jargon crafted for you.

Best of all, when you offer copious support for Palestinians who call for the extermination of all Jewry, you earn your right, proper badge as a non racist! By defending these calls to exterminate a tiny minority, your non-racism is proven beyond any doubt as you know in your heart of hearts that the cause is just because the 1.5 billion brave Muslims who call for it have been oppressed by the 14 million evil Jews, and so the loss of 14 million is such a small price to pay for supporting the 1.5 billion.

Damn, it's such a wonderful thing to be able to support all those things you support and be able to feel so great about it!

 

[Coyote]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

So true.

It is a way to hate Jews and feel really great about it! It is a way to accessorize your wardrobe with some really hip keffiyehs. It is a way to stick it to da man by supporting savagery. Its a way to march in lockstep with a huge majority as they persecute a tiny minority. It is a way to find a socially acceptable cult where you don't need to think, don't need to tell the truth, don't need to be fair or thoughtful or decent in any way -- you just have to repeat the jargon crafted for you.

Best of all, when you offer copious support for Palestinians who call for the extermination of all Jewry, you earn your right, proper badge as a non racist! By defending these calls to exterminate a tiny minority, your non-racism is proven beyond any doubt as you know in your heart of hearts that the cause is just because the 1.5 billion brave Muslims who call for it have been oppressed by the 14 million evil Jews, and so the loss of 14 million is such a small price to pay for supporting the 1.5 billion.

Damn, it's such a wonderful thing to be able to support all those things you support and be able to feel so great about it!

What are you talking about? By the way, have you found a link anywhere where I've "scapegoated" Jews?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What are you talking about?

Willis.


But get it right next time. . It's Whatchu, and not "what are you"

 

[montelatici]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

Then the Pro Israel must by the same criteria not be anti Palestinian

No, the correct analogy would be Israel supporters not necessarily being anti-Muslim or anti-Christian.

 

[Lipush]

If you're both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel... then you're better off finding a new hobby. Because they both hate you,

Actually Old School they don't at all...........Reading some of the Trolls on here you would think they would but in reality(in the real world) most people are very understanding of each other.......The Trolls on here do not represent Jewish folk in Israel or else where for that matter.

They are though,what I call fringe dwellers.......living in some weird space in their own mind........totally unrelated to the real world........steve,Love Teddy's work today,I thought he was very honest from his passionate point of view.....just a shame he didn't see the whole picture otherwise it would have been quite exceptional.Big Up To Teddy I say.

Wow, you're one snobbish person. How long have you lived among Israelis that you know who speaks for us, exactly?

Well I'll tell you something.....you don't that is for sure

My response is against regulations

Fcuk all that,that has never stopped you and the Zionist Beasts in the Past

But that'll sure stop me from being banned on board

 

[The Irish Ram]

In 1948, sure many Arabs/Moslems were expelled from Israel (abt 750,000), but at the same time more like a million Jews were expelled from the neighboring Arab countries.

Actually, it was not more like a million. Approximately 876,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled. It was about the same number 800,000 Jews, and like the Palestinians they fled for multiple reasons - some were expelled, some fled in fear of unrest and persecution, some to escape poverty.

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

In many ways, that's exactly what it is.

I disagree.

I think that is often thrown out to shut off debate.

Being Pro-Palestinian, to me - is recognizing the rights of the Palestinians for self determination in the form of either a state or full and equal citizenship, equality, and justice.

It does not mean being "anti-Israel" - I support Israel's right to exist and it's right to defend itself just like any other state.

And that is the key: like any other state.

Once the Palestinians have a state then they will be held to the same standards and same sanctions if they fail to hold up to the responsibilities of a modern state.

That's not being anti-Israel - it's about justice, equality, and doing what's right by people.

We need to know the facts before meting judgment on Israel. There were no Palestinians to expel. Here is the breakdown of property ownership prior to Israel becoming a Nation:
71.2% Britain
8.6% Jewish
3.3% resident Arabs
16.9% non resident Arabs.

What wasn't mandated to the Jews (71.2%) was bought by the Jews at a very high price from the Arabs. (16.9%). Of the 3.3% of Arab residents, (430,000) left on their own accord when the neighboring Arab countries told them to due to an upcoming invasion of Israel by Egypt and the other Muslim neighbors.
THIS was Israel's response to the exodus of those few Arabs:
"Do not fear. Do not destroy your homes with your own hands. Do not bring upon yourself tragedy by unnecessary evacuation and self imposed burdens...But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace for you and your families."

^That is a far cry from being thrown off of their property by the Jews. According to the Arab National Committee1950:
"The motivation for Arabs leaving Israel, came from Arab leadership. The removal of the Arab inhabitants was voluntary and was carried out at our request."
Those Arabs that were told to leave weren't allowed entry into these Arab countries though, and had no choice but to squat on Israeli land. They had lived in Israel for less than 24 months and didn't even qualify for aid as a refugee. They hadn't lived in Israel long enough to qualify. The law had to be changed in order to supply international aid. They weren't Palestinians. There was no Palestine. They were Egyptians living in Israel, Syrians living in Israel.......

Want to make it right? Insist on a two state solution between Egypt and "Palestinian"/Hamas. Syria and "Palestinian"/Hamas. Israel didn't make them refugees and does not owe them one inch of Israel.

 

[montelatici]

What a load of bullshit. The facts are documented. Making things up doesn't make it true. Jews owned less than 5% of the land prior to partition.

 

[Hossfly]

Here's a little blurb about Israel and Netanyahu that Sally found for me.


There is no world leader more hated by bien-pensant liberals in America and Europe than Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Whereas once the bile was directed at former U.S. president George W. Bush—for invading Iraq and Afghanistan, for identifying radical Islam in both its Shi’a and Sunni variations as an existential threat, and for backing Israel—it’s now largely focused on Netanyahu, an alleged “racist” and “war criminal” who just happens to have won a resounding vote of confidence from the Israeli electorate on March 17.

Two New York Times editorials speak to my point rather elegantly. The first, published on March 13, asked whether Turkey could still be considered a reliable North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) ally—concluding, based on the Ankara government’s stance towards international crises from the Islamic State insurgency to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, that it can’t. But while the substance of the editorial was basically correct, notable was the lack of any ad hominem attack on Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. “Increasingly authoritarian” was the best the New York Times could manage when it came to describing this boorish thug, who rejoices in conspiracy theories, baits his country’s declining Jewish population even as he assures them that they are safe, and imprisons journalists with the devil-may-care attitude only a dictator can enjoy.

Contrast that with the morning-after New York Times editorial on an Israeli election that saw Netanyahu defy polling predictions by winning a clear mandate to govern. (Netanyahu’s Likud party garnered 30 Knesset seats to the Zionist Union’s 24 seats.) “Racist,” “desperate,” “craven,” and “aggressive” are just a selection of the adjectives used to describe Israel’s prime minister. We are told that Netanyahu “expected to win an easy victory and then ended up fighting for his political life,” when the exact reverse was true. The paper then bemoaned Netanyahu’s “demagogy,” claiming that he “further incites the rage that has torn his country apart.” To slam an Israeli leader for incitement when so many of Israel’s neighbors turn to the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” anti-Semitic fabrication when they want insights into Israeli behavior is laughable, frankly.


Read more at Israel Not Netanyahu is the Ultimate Target - Israel News

 

[Coyote]

What are you talking about?

Willis.


But get it right next time. . It's Whatchu, and not "what are you"

No link huh? That's ok. I wasn't counting on it

 

[Coyote]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

Then the Pro Israel must by the same criteria not be anti Palestinian

I agree. You can just make blanket either/or statements about people.

 

[jillian]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

he learned more than you have listening to sunni ijit.

and yes, it is. but this issue confuses you.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

No link huh? That's ok. I wasn't counting on it

Sure.

Here you go

 

[teddyearp]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

Oh no. I believe I have learned enough. But my statement did leave out you and Humanity. However, if you look harder, you are being delusional in thinking that way. As was I. We were perhaps three amongst the rest who while being Pro-Palestinian are actually Anti-Israel. I suggest you carefully reread the myriad of posts. Even PFTinmore, as much as he seems to be peaceful, he really doesn't want the State of Israel to exist. None of them do.

No, for most of the world, being on the side of the Palestinians is to desire that the State of Israel would vanish from the face of the earth. As much as you might try to convince yourself otherwise, it the the cold hard truth.

The world learned a very hard lesson when Israel decided to attempt to give some land for peace with the Gaza withdrawal. Israel has learned it the hardest. I'll send you some pictures from Sderot if I get a chance to go there next month.

 

[Coyote]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

he learned more than you have listening to sunni ijit.

and yes, it is. but this issue confuses you.

No. I'm not confused in the least.

You see things in a dichotomy that allows for only two positions: You are either Pro-Palestinian and Anti-Israel or you are Pro-Israel and Anti-Palestinian. Nothing else is possible.

it's not confusing so much as dismaying to attempt to converse with someone who can not see beyond that.

 

[Coyote]

Then perhaps you didn't learn everything.

To be Pro-Palestine is not just another way of being anti-Israel.

Oh no. I believe I have learned enough. But my statement did leave out you and Humanity. However, if you look harder, you are being delusional in thinking that way. As was I. We were perhaps three amongst the rest who while being Pro-Palestinian are actually Anti-Israel. I suggest you carefully reread the myriad of posts. Even PFTinmore, as much as he seems to be peaceful, he really doesn't want the State of Israel to exist. None of them do.

No, for most of the world, being on the side of the Palestinians is to desire that the State of Israel would vanish from the face of the earth. As much as you might try to convince yourself otherwise, it the the cold hard truth.

The world learned a very hard lesson when Israel decided to attempt to give some land for peace with the Gaza withdrawal. Israel has learned it the hardest. I'll send you some pictures from Sderot if I get a chance to go there next month.

Does that mean that most Pro-Israeli's are Anti-Palestinian then?