CDZ Muslim Terrorism versus Islamopohobes

[saveliberty]

As a microcosm let me mention an outright ban on Muslim immigration to the US. I find that against our history. I also find ignoring Muslim extremist terrorists in the US a mistake. One thing I have noticed is many of these folks traveled back to the ME and we know that. These would seem to be the folks to watch the most. Immigrants should have required paperwork and background checks. Sorry if it takes longer because you are a refugee.

 

[Coyote]

A "phobia" is an irrational fear. The worldwide Islamic community has demonstrated emphatically that it is a breeding ground for extremism, coupled with distrust, hate, and homicidal sentiments against not only non-Muslims, but Muslims who profess slightly different versions of Islam. It is not irrational for The Western World to take precautions against being victimized, and if some innocent Muslims are inconvenienced or rejected in our attempt to make ourselves safe, that is an acceptable collateral happening. Why are 70% of the Syrian refugees entering Europe young-adult males? It gives one pause.

While Islam claims to be peaceful and hospitable, one cannot fail to notice that the millions of Muslim refugees (starting with the "Palestinian" refugees fleeing Israel in the late 40's) are NEVER taken in by Islamic countries, and they INVARIABLY seek to settle in Western countries where they are a small minority. Is this because they want to embrace the joys of being German, or French, or British? It does not appear so.

In fact, Islam is not a "religion" as that term is understood in Western culture. "Separation of Church and State" is absurd in Islam; Islam is a comprehensive "rule book" for life that demands physical enforcement and hence, the dominance of government (in Islamic countries) by Islam and its leaders. In Iran, for example, every action by the elected political leaders and bodies is subject to being overturned by the chief imam. Even "moderate" Muslims around the world, when speaking truthfully, all support the concept of Sharia law - along with the enforcement that goes with it.

Separation of Church and State is a relatively recent phenomenum, that has yet to be recognized as a value in much of the world. The concept did not historically exist in Christian countries where King/Church were one. Nor is their separation of "church and state" in Israel. It's a concept that many religious followers actively oppose - you can see it in the constant disputes over that separation.

This is debatable, and it's a belief that undermines attempts to reconcile security and religious freedom: Even "moderate" Muslims around the world, when speaking truthfully, all support the concept of Sharia law - along with the enforcement that goes with it.

What is Sharia? Most fundamentally, it's God's rules for living as a Muslim, how it's interpreted and what that means varies according to who you ask

From an American Muslim point of view:

19. What is Sharia?

Sharia stands for Islamic or sacred law. It is an Arabic word meaning “the way” or “the path to water.” For centuries, Muslim scholars have given a broad definition of Sharia reflecting the diversity of interpretations on how Muslims have attempted to best understand and practice their faith.


The general definition of Sharia as understood by most American Muslims is as follows:


Sharia represents how practicing Muslims can best lead their daily lives in accordance with God’s divine guidance. It may be generally defined as the Islamic law revealed by God to the Prophet Muhammad. That divine law was then interpreted by Muslim scholars over the centuries. Among the primary aims of the Sharia are the achievement of justice, fairness and mercy.


The five major goals of the Sharia are the protection of sound religious practice, life, sanity, the family, and personal and communal wealth. The acknowledgement of sound local customs throughout the world is one of the five basic maxims of the Sharia according to all Islamic schools of law.


Sharia is overwhelmingly concerned with personal religious observance such as prayer and fasting. Just as many observant Jews follow Halakha, many observant Muslims follow some aspect of Sharia.


Currently, 35 countries incorporate Sharia into their civil, common or customary law. The diverse manner in which these countries apply Sharia to daily life highlights how Sharia is neither static nor rigid but instead a reflection on how different communities interpret it.5​

Implying that supporting the "concept" of Sharia and "it's enforcement" is misleading if Sharia isn't defined but left to the assumption that what is popularly assumed to be Sharia (ie - as defined by it's most radical adherents) is all it is and therefore is what is supported.

"Moderate Muslims"...do not "all support the enforcements" - what is supported depends on where you are....

Muslim Beliefs about Sharia

According to this article - which polls the opinions of a subgroup of Muslims, those who say they believe that Sharia should be the law of the land, responses range from 28 - 88 % support in corporal punishment for such crimes as theft, 21 - 88% support stoning for adultry and 4 - 86% death penalty for apostacy. Those who support "making Sharia the law of the land" in their country range from 8% of that countries Muslims to 99%, and among that group, 19%-74% state it should apply to everyone (including non-muslims).

 

[Mudda]

Muslims want the whole world to be under sharia law. Ipso facto, there are no innocent Muslims.

 

[Coyote]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

 

[saveliberty]

I recognize the phobia when people suggest we kill them all. I see much of the comparative information as excuse making. No one is really offering solutions.

The reason I offer comparisons to Christianity, Judaism, etc. is that I feel that we overreact to Islam, and we ignore the parallels to similar Christian behavior.

And there is a solution that is foundational in that comparison: treat both the same. Stop making excuses for fundamentalist Christian abuses, and stop generalizing the abuses of muslim fundamentalists to all of Islam.

Focus on the extremists, and stop the global generalizations about one religion when whackos in other religions do the same things.

Which is why I made the title what it is. To recognize both issues. I agree with you. Starting down the path to workable solutions too.

 

[Coyote]

Sometimes reviewing history or similar situations helps find an answer. Sometimes it bogs things down with arguments on side issues.

I recognize the phobia when people suggest we kill them all. I see much of the comparative information as excuse making. No one is really offering solutions.

You can't find solutions unless you are starting from accurate information and that is a big problem.

 

[Coyote]

As a microcosm let me mention an outright ban on Muslim immigration to the US. I find that against our history. I also find ignoring Muslim extremist terrorists in the US a mistake. One thing I have noticed is many of these folks traveled back to the ME and we know that. These would seem to be the folks to watch the most. Immigrants should have required paperwork and background checks. Sorry if it takes longer because you are a refugee.

I think that is very reasonable, and we already require background checks when immigrating from certain countries I believe - which is reasonable.

 

[Mudda]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

How about simply people who dislike backwards Muslim ideology? Why does it have to be some hate-sounding catchphrase that demonizes for no logical reason the very people it defines ?

 

[L.K.Eder]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

How about simply people who dislike backwards Muslim ideology? Why does it have to be some hate-sounding catchphrase that demonizes for no logical reason the very people it defines ?

people who proclaim that there are no innocent muslims, should not complain about demonization.

 

[Two Thumbs]

If reality had any place in America and especially on the right / conservative side, and the statistics of your likelihood to die from violence in America mattered, then you have turn your head to our armed society in which more have died from guns than all the terrorist acts combined. But fear of the other is a bogeyman and thus it must have a suit in which it can be called out and hated. Name it whatever it changes often in history.

"A viral image says the number of Americans killed by terrorism in the last decade is 24, while the number of Americans killed by guns in the last decade is 280,024." Fact-checking a comparison of gun deaths and terrorism deaths

this post is why I hate leftist.

their hate for our freedoms runs so deep that they choose to help people that will lower them into acid until the organs dissolve.

 

[GaryDog]

So tolerant. .

Mac, this is not helpful, nor a topic enhancing post. Please edit for more content please.

Sure!

I notice that certain people are far, far more tolerant of and defensive of one religion (Islam) than another (Christianity).

But I'm sure I really didn't need to say that.
.

That's because certain people are far, far more critical of and offensive to one religion (Islam) than another (Christianity), even though the latter is responsible for FAR more problematic policy in the U.S. than the former.

 

[Two Thumbs]

barring entry is a western value

protecting ones own is a normal reaction to violence.

When a group of people see members going over the edge, they have the responsibility to bring them to heel before things get out of hand. Or at the very least, sign up to fight them in droves.

but they refuse, out and out refuse.

Muslims murder people throughout the ME, in the EU, Africa, asia, russia, USA and even in the Philippines.

We no longer have any reason to be polite to the group, b/c that group has done nothing of any merit to stop the world wide violence.

 

[GaryDog]

If reality had any place in America and especially on the right / conservative side, and the statistics of your likelihood to die from violence in America mattered, then you have turn your head to our armed society in which more have died from guns than all the terrorist acts combined. But fear of the other is a bogeyman and thus it must have a suit in which it can be called out and hated. Name it whatever it changes often in history.

"A viral image says the number of Americans killed by terrorism in the last decade is 24, while the number of Americans killed by guns in the last decade is 280,024." Fact-checking a comparison of gun deaths and terrorism deaths

this post is why I hate leftist.

their hate for our freedoms runs so deep that they choose to help people that will lower them into acid until the organs dissolve.

Islam doesn't "hate" our freedoms. By and large, it hates our meddling in the Islamic world.

 

[Mudda]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

How about simply people who dislike backwards Muslim ideology? Why does it have to be some hate-sounding catchphrase that demonizes for no logical reason the very people it defines ?

people who proclaim that there are no innocent muslims, should not complain about demonization.

So stating a fact that all Muslims want the whole world to be under sharia is demonizing them? Ask a Muslim in the US if he or she would prefer to live under sharia than under the US Constitution. If anyone chooses the latter, then they aren't Muslim to start with.

 

[Coyote]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

How about simply people who dislike backwards Muslim ideology? Why does it have to be some hate-sounding catchphrase that demonizes for no logical reason the very people it defines ?

people who proclaim that there are no innocent muslims, should not complain about demonization.

So stating a fact that all Muslims want the whole world to be under sharia is demonizing them? Ask a Muslim in the US if he or she would prefer to live under sharia than under the US Constitution. If anyone chooses the latter, then they aren't Muslim to start with.

It is if it isn't a "fact"... that's when it becomes an 'ism.

 

[Mudda]

barring entry is a western value

The West lets in more different kinds of people than China, Saudi Arabia and all the other non-Western countries who let virtually no one in.

 

[saveliberty]

If reality had any place in America and especially on the right / conservative side, and the statistics of your likelihood to die from violence in America mattered, then you have turn your head to our armed society in which more have died from guns than all the terrorist acts combined. But fear of the other is a bogeyman and thus it must have a suit in which it can be called out and hated. Name it whatever it changes often in history.

"A viral image says the number of Americans killed by terrorism in the last decade is 24, while the number of Americans killed by guns in the last decade is 280,024." Fact-checking a comparison of gun deaths and terrorism deaths

this post is why I hate leftist.

their hate for our freedoms runs so deep that they choose to help people that will lower them into acid until the organs dissolve.

...and also an excellent example of how difficult bridging gaps can be when "we" can't even agree.

 

[Arianrhod]

Personally, I find Muslims as a whole to be intolerant of many basic Western thoughts.

My first question would be: What is your opinion based on? Personal acquaintance with numerous Muslims? Extensive reading on Islam? Other?

Knowing that would be helpful in addressing your opinion.

 

[saveliberty]

barring entry is a western value

The West lets in more different kinds of people than China, Saudi Arabia and all the other non-Western countries who let virtually no one in.

Mudda, we are talking about Western values, not ME values.

 

[Mudda]

The word Islamophobia is a ridiculous misnomer, IMHO. A phobia is an extremely irrational dislike or fear of something. To dislike or be critical and concerned over the beliefs and ideas that make up Islam, or any religion for that matter, is not irrational, nor is it extremely fearful or hateful. It is no more phobic to dislike and criticise a religious set of beliefs, than it is any other set of beliefs.

And, as someone (NOT Christopher Hitchens, apparently) once said: Islamophobia: a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

What would be a better term? Anti-Muslim?

How about simply people who dislike backwards Muslim ideology? Why does it have to be some hate-sounding catchphrase that demonizes for no logical reason the very people it defines ?

people who proclaim that there are no innocent muslims, should not complain about demonization.

So stating a fact that all Muslims want the whole world to be under sharia is demonizing them? Ask a Muslim in the US if he or she would prefer to live under sharia than under the US Constitution. If anyone chooses the latter, then they aren't Muslim to start with.

It is if it isn't a "fact"... that's when it becomes an 'ism.

Like I said, go ask a few Muslims if they'd prefer the US be under sharia, you'll have your answer. The fact is, you won't find a Muslim who wouldn't prefer sharia over anything else, it's a central core element of their faith. Now you know. Glad I could help.