Murder rate drops as Gun sales soar.

[SmarterThanHick]

And guns are used by citizens to defend themselves about 2.5 million times/year.

False. A sketch phone survey of 5000 Americans determining that 2.5 million guns are used defensively per year has been pretty thoroughly deemed crap. A published professor at Harvard's School of Public Health used the shady methods of that survey with questions about UFOs and by those methods concluded that 20 million Americans have seen UFOs from another planet.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/self_defense.pdf

Like I mentioned earlier, England has the same crime rate it had 100 years ago when you could buy anything you wanted. In fact, since their various gun bans, crime has risen. The same goes for Austrailia.

In one sentence you say it's the same, and in the next you say it's risen. You do realize the two are mutually exclusive, right? But again this shows that a country which is saturated with guns will show a minor increase in crime with minor gun bans. Total scarcity however, as seen by other countries, shows dramatic decreases in crime rate.

But what you're talking about is a cherry picked data point. Of course you can find one (or even two or three) countries with fewer guns and about the same crime. But when you look at all countries by number of guns and number of gun related crimes, it's clear that more guns is NOT less crime. In most studies, the US comes out as being top 10 as far as number of crimes per capita, and we have over three times more guns per capita than most other countries. If guns make us safer, why are we consistently at the top of the crime list?

 

[The Rabbi]

So your solution is a total ban on all gun in this country?

Let's see. There are several million sold each year. Guns have a working life of a century if well maintained. Additionally the tools and materials to make them are easy to get and the engineering is not complicated. Anyone with a high school machine shop education could do so.
So to enforce this ban you would literally have to do a house to house search everywhere in America. And do another oen every 2 years or so thereafter. Further, it would create a revolution like you have never seen.
So, yeah. What a great idea.
Hick must be really, really stupid.

 

[CMike]

And guns are used by citizens to defend themselves about 2.5 million times/year.

False. A sketch phone survey of 5000 Americans determining that 2.5 million guns are used defensively per year has been pretty thoroughly deemed crap. A published professor at Harvard's School of Public Health used the shady methods of that survey with questions about UFOs and by those methods do realize the two are mutually exclusive, right? But again this shows that a country which is saturated with guns will show a minor increase in crime with minor gun bans. Total scarcity however, as seen by other countries, shows dramatic decreases in crime rate.

But what you're talking about is a cherry picked data point. Of course capita, and we have over three times more guns per capita than most other countries. If guns make us safer, why are we consistently at the top of the crime list?

False. He in no way proved that or backed it up .

Just a left winger spouting nonsense.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

So your solution is a total ban on all gun in this country?

Let's see. There are several million sold each year. Guns have a working life of a century if well maintained. Additionally the tools and materials to make them are easy to get and the engineering is not complicated. Anyone with a high school machine shop education could do so.
So to enforce this ban you would literally have to do a house to house search everywhere in America. And do another oen every 2 years or so thereafter. Further, it would create a revolution like you have never seen.
So, yeah. What a great idea.
Hick must be really, really stupid.

Or, I never actually proposed anything you just said. You call me stupid and yet you prove your own illiteracy with this ridiculous straw man argument. Point out where I said all guns should be banned. Show me.

And no, people with a high school machine shop education don't make guns in their basements. That's dumb. I'm sure you also have some vision of them going down to the local walmart and picking up some potassium nitrate and sulfur and making gunpowder too, don't ya?

False. He in no way proved that or backed it up .

Just a left winger spouting nonsense.

False. Here is the article published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by Dr. David Hemenway that overviews exactly what I just stated, as well as the survey given by ABC News and the Washington Post using the same sketch methods to come to the ridiculous conclusion that millions of Americans have seen and been in contact with aliens.

Just a dumbass ignoring evidence and proclaiming themselves to be right.

 

[rightwinger]

And guns are used by citizens to defend themselves about 2.5 million times/year.

False. A sketch phone survey of 5000 Americans determining that 2.5 million guns are used defensively per year has been pretty thoroughly deemed crap. A published professor at Harvard's School of Public Health used the shady methods of that survey with questions about UFOs and by those methods do realize the two are mutually exclusive, right? But again this shows that a country which is saturated with guns will show a minor increase in crime with minor gun bans. Total scarcity however, as seen by other countries, shows dramatic decreases in crime rate.

But what you're talking about is a cherry picked data point. Of course capita, and we have over three times more guns per capita than most other countries. If guns make us safer, why are we consistently at the top of the crime list?

False. He in no way proved that or backed it up .

Just a left winger spouting nonsense.

Amway admitting he just got his ass kicked and has no response

 

[rightwinger]

Did someone just compare the crime rates of DC, a major city, to hicksville Michigan? REALLY now?

The problem here is that people believe more guns = more safety. Compared to every other country, this is solidly proven incorrect. Where do you people believe criminals get guns from in the first place? I'll give you a hint: they're not making them in the basement. They're stealing yours. You buying more guns = criminals getting more guns. It's as simple as that.

So yes, there's a small correlation to areas with more firearms mildly reducing crime. But there's an overlying correlation between no guns and markedly reduced crime much more than getting more guns. Furthermore if you actually look at the stats, the percentage of gun owners who actually have their guns for use during a crime is minuscule.

This all comes down to the ridiculous American mindset of "screw community, I'm looking out for me". It doesn't matter that if everyone agrees to tossing guns then crime gets reduced, because dumb hicks only look out for themselves, at the expense of others, and their neighbors repay the favor.

Hick must be one really fucking stupid person.

Another wingnut admitting he got his ass kicked and has no response

 

[The Rabbi]

So your solution is a total ban on all gun in this country?

Let's see. There are several million sold each year. Guns have a working life of a century if well maintained. Additionally the tools and materials to make them are easy to get and the engineering is not complicated. Anyone with a high school machine shop education could do so.
So to enforce this ban you would literally have to do a house to house search everywhere in America. And do another oen every 2 years or so thereafter. Further, it would create a revolution like you have never seen.
So, yeah. What a great idea.
Hick must be really, really stupid.

Or, I never actually proposed anything you just said. You call me stupid and yet you prove your own illiteracy with this ridiculous straw man argument. Point out where I said all guns should be banned. Show me.

And no, people with a high school machine shop education don't make guns in their basements. That's dumb. I'm sure you also have some vision of them going down to the local walmart and picking up some potassium nitrate and sulfur and making gunpowder too, don't ya?

False. He in no way proved that or backed it up .

Just a left winger spouting nonsense.

False. Here is the article published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by Dr. David Hemenway that overviews exactly what I just stated, as well as the survey given by ABC News and the Washington Post using the same sketch methods to come to the ridiculous conclusion that millions of Americans have seen and been in contact with aliens.

Just a dumbass ignoring evidence and proclaiming themselves to be right.

Oh so when you make the comment about "total scarcity shows dramatic decreases in crime" that isn't an implicit suggestion?
You need to write more clearly.
And when I say "anyone with a high school machine shop education could produce one" and you respond they aren't doing that then you need to read more clearly as well.

What is clear is that you have nothing of substance to add here. The anti gun arguments have been thoroughly debunked from every angle. Completely, totally. They belong with conspiracy theories in the set of credible arguments.

 

[The Rabbi]

Did someone just compare the crime rates of DC, a major city, to hicksville Michigan? REALLY now?

The problem here is that people believe more guns = more safety. Compared to every other country, this is solidly proven incorrect. Where do you people believe criminals get guns from in the first place? I'll give you a hint: they're not making them in the basement. They're stealing yours. You buying more guns = criminals getting more guns. It's as simple as that.

So yes, there's a small correlation to areas with more firearms mildly reducing crime. But there's an overlying correlation between no guns and markedly reduced crime much more than getting more guns. Furthermore if you actually look at the stats, the percentage of gun owners who actually have their guns for use during a crime is minuscule.

This all comes down to the ridiculous American mindset of "screw community, I'm looking out for me". It doesn't matter that if everyone agrees to tossing guns then crime gets reduced, because dumb hicks only look out for themselves, at the expense of others, and their neighbors repay the favor.

Hick must be one really fucking stupid person.

Another wingnut admitting he got his ass kicked and has no response

What point were you making? Oh that's right. You never make points. Sorry.

 

[rightwinger]

Hick must be one really fucking stupid person.

Another wingnut admitting he got his ass kicked and has no response

What point were you making? Oh that's right. You never make points. Sorry.

I was making the point that when your only response is "Hick must be one really fucking stupid person."

You have been thoroughly defeated in the argument.....as usual

 

[The Rabbi]

Another wingnut admitting he got his ass kicked and has no response

What point were you making? Oh that's right. You never make points. Sorry.

I was making the point that when your only response is "Hick must be one really fucking stupid person."

You have been thoroughly defeated in the argument.....as usual

Okay. Then you failed because I addressed the posts and showed they were wrong.
Why not get back to cleaning sewers where you belong?

 

[rightwinger]

What point were you making? Oh that's right. You never make points. Sorry.

I was making the point that when your only response is "Hick must be one really fucking stupid person."

You have been thoroughly defeated in the argument.....as usual

Okay. Then you failed because I addressed the posts and showed they were wrong.
Why not get back to cleaning sewers where you belong?

Sewers are what made civilized societies possible.....

I am proud of my vocation

 

[CMike]

So your solution is a total ban on all gun in this country?

Let's see. There are several million sold each year. Guns have a working life of a century if well maintained. Additionally the tools and materials to make them are easy to get and the engineering is not complicated. Anyone with a high school machine shop education could do so.
So to enforce this ban you would literally have to do a house to house search everywhere in America. And do another oen every 2 years or so thereafter. Further, it would create a revolution like you have never seen.
So, yeah. What a great idea.
Hick must be really, really stupid.

Or, I never actually proposed anything you just said. You call me stupid and yet you prove your own illiteracy with this ridiculous straw man argument. Point out where I said all guns should be banned. Show me.

And no, people with a high school machine shop education don't make guns in their basements. That's dumb. I'm sure you also have some vision of them going down to the local walmart and picking up some potassium nitrate and sulfur and making gunpowder too, don't ya?

False. He in no way proved that or backed it up .

Just a left winger spouting nonsense.

False. Here is the article published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology by Dr. David Hemenway that overviews exactly what I just stated, as well as the survey given by ABC News and the Washington Post using the same sketch methods to come to the ridiculous conclusion that millions of Americans have seen and been in contact with aliens.

Just a dumbass ignoring evidence and proclaiming themselves to be right.

Some article, he is saying that he thinks the people answering the survey were lying

"Two aspects of the K-G survey combine to create severe misestimation. The first is the likelihood of positive social desirability response, sometimes referred to as personal presentation bias. An individual who purchases a gun for self-defense and then uses it successfully to ward off a criminal is displaying the wisdom of his precautions and his capability in protecting himself, his loved ones, and his property. His action is to be commended and admired.

Some positive social desirability response bias, by itself, might not lead to serious overestimation. However, combined with a second aspect of the survey-- the attempt to estimate a very rare event--it does. The search for a "needle in a haystack" has major methodological dangers, especially where researchers try to extrapolate the findings to society as a whole."


If that's true, you can say that about any survey.

He hasn't shown in any way that it was flawed.

Of course, the weak minded and the liberals will believe anything.

Once again about 2.5 million people protect themselves with guns every year.

 

[CMike]

I was making the point that when your only response is "Hick must be one really fucking stupid person."

You have been thoroughly defeated in the argument.....as usual

Okay. Then you failed because I addressed the posts and showed they were wrong.
Why not get back to cleaning sewers where you belong?

Sewers are what made civilized societies possible.....

I am proud of my vocation

Good, that's where you belong.

 

[rightwinger]

Okay. Then you failed because I addressed the posts and showed they were wrong.
Why not get back to cleaning sewers where you belong?

Sewers are what made civilized societies possible.....

I am proud of my vocation

Good, that's where you belong.

Thank you ....we sewer workers understand the vital role we play in this society

Unlike door to door salesmen

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Oh so when you make the comment about "total scarcity shows dramatic decreases in crime" that isn't an implicit suggestion?
You need to write more clearly.
And when I say "anyone with a high school machine shop education could produce one" and you respond they aren't doing that then you need to read more clearly as well.

What is clear is that you have nothing of substance to add here. The anti gun arguments have been thoroughly debunked from every angle. Completely, totally. They belong with conspiracy theories in the set of credible arguments.

So let me just make sure I got this right. I provide you a supported argument that thoroughly debunks your garbage, and you whine about unsubstantiated speculation and not understanding you. Great.

So when you want to talk like a big boy, perhaps you should provide a link or published article that supports.... well anything you're saying. Thanks.

Until then, I won't be believing people with high school shop experience have the skill, capacity, or resources to make guns or gunpowder in their basements. Birdhouses, probably. Guns: no.

Some article, he is saying that he thinks the people answering the survey were lying

"Two aspects of the K-G survey combine to create severe misestimation. The first is the likelihood of positive social desirability response, sometimes referred to as personal presentation bias. An individual who purchases a gun for self-defense and then uses it successfully to ward off a criminal is displaying the wisdom of his precautions and his capability in protecting himself, his loved ones, and his property. His action is to be commended and admired.

Some positive social desirability response bias, by itself, might not lead to serious overestimation. However, combined with a second aspect of the survey-- the attempt to estimate a very rare event--it does. The search for a "needle in a haystack" has major methodological dangers, especially where researchers try to extrapolate the findings to society as a whole."


If that's true, you can say that about any survey.

He hasn't shown in any way that it was flawed.

Of course, the weak minded and the liberals will believe anything.

Once again about 2.5 million people protect themselves with guns every year.

Oh I see. An undereducated hick has decided to hand waive away a published scholarly article from a peer reviewed journal, specifically in regards to known biased survey methods from two decades ago, drawing the conclusion that no survey can be legitimate if this one isn't. I'm sure your GED qualifies you to misinterpret the article and discredit a PhD at Harvard.

So in summary: another hick ignoring actual evidence and refuting a highly qualified expert with their own personal counter-evidence of.... nothing.

 

[Yukon.]

The MAD deterent requires nations that don't se eye-to-eye to have nulcear weapons. In this way the will of a single nation is not predominent. Middle-eastern Arab/Muslim countries will soon have nuclear weapons putting the entire world on a more even keel.

N. Korea for example is nuclear armed and is avoided completely by the US. Why do the Pentagon war mongers not insist on ivading N. Kopea as they did Iran ? That's easy. N. Korea can and will use nuclear weapons on an aggressor nation.

 

[CMike]

Oh so when you make the comment about "total scarcity shows dramatic decreases in crime" that isn't an implicit suggestion?
You need to write more clearly.
And when I say "anyone with a high school machine shop education could produce one" and you respond they aren't doing that then you need to read more clearly as well.

What is clear is that you have nothing of substance to add here. The anti gun arguments have been thoroughly debunked from every angle. Completely, totally. They belong with conspiracy theories in the set of credible arguments.

So let me just make sure I got this right. I provide you a supported argument that thoroughly debunks your garbage, and you whine about unsubstantiated speculation and not understanding you. Great.

So when you want to talk like a big boy, perhaps you should provide a link or published article that supports.... well anything you're saying. Thanks.

Until then, I won't be believing people with high school shop experience have the skill, capacity, or resources to make guns or gunpowder in their basements. Birdhouses, probably. Guns: no.

Some article, he is saying that he thinks the people answering the survey were lying

"Two aspects of the K-G survey combine to create severe misestimation. The first is the likelihood of positive social desirability response, sometimes referred to as personal presentation bias. An individual who purchases a gun for self-defense and then uses it successfully to ward off a criminal is displaying the wisdom of his precautions and his capability in protecting himself, his loved ones, and his property. His action is to be commended and admired.

Some positive social desirability response bias, by itself, might not lead to serious overestimation. However, combined with a second aspect of the survey-- the attempt to estimate a very rare event--it does. The search for a "needle in a haystack" has major methodological dangers, especially where researchers try to extrapolate the findings to society as a whole."


If that's true, you can say that about any survey.

He hasn't shown in any way that it was flawed.

Of course, the weak minded and the liberals will believe anything.

Once again about 2.5 million people protect themselves with guns every year.

Oh I see. An undereducated hick has decided to hand waive away a published scholarly article from a peer reviewed journal, specifically in regards to known biased survey methods from two decades ago, drawing the conclusion that no survey can be legitimate if this one isn't. I'm sure your GED qualifies you to misinterpret the article and discredit a PhD at Harvard.

So in summary: another hick ignoring actual evidence and refuting a highly qualified expert with their own personal counter-evidence of.... nothing.

I read it. The reason he said that the study was flawed was because he believes the respondenets were lying

What you really are doing is indicting left wing "professors" and the left wing flock, who won't question anything that their left wing leaders tell them.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM[/ame]

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh so when you make the comment about "total scarcity shows dramatic decreases in crime" that isn't an implicit suggestion?
You need to write more clearly.
And when I say "anyone with a high school machine shop education could produce one" and you respond they aren't doing that then you need to read more clearly as well.

What is clear is that you have nothing of substance to add here. The anti gun arguments have been thoroughly debunked from every angle. Completely, totally. They belong with conspiracy theories in the set of credible arguments.

So let me just make sure I got this right. I provide you a supported argument that thoroughly debunks your garbage, and you whine about unsubstantiated speculation and not understanding you. Great.

So when you want to talk like a big boy, perhaps you should provide a link or published article that supports.... well anything you're saying. Thanks.

Until then, I won't be believing people with high school shop experience have the skill, capacity, or resources to make guns or gunpowder in their basements. Birdhouses, probably. Guns: no.

.

If you presented any argument, never mind coherent , well thought out and supported, I would drop dead from shock.
Here ya go!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arjc_tKofhA]YouTube - Illegal Arms Market in Durra, Pakistan[/ame]
English Russia Chechen Self-Made Weapons

Now, are you going to say this links are biased? Are you going to say that Pakistani kids working in closets are actually PhDs? Or are you going to man up, admit I am right and then shut the fuck up and write on another thread?

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I read it. The reason he said that the study was flawed was because he believes the respondenets were lying

Oh that's what he said? Quote that from the article for me, please.

What you really are doing is indicting left wing "professors" and the left wing flock, who won't question anything that their left wing leaders tell them.

What YOU really are doing is continuing to hand waive evidence with no refuting evidence, and making this into a left vs right issue, whereby anyone who doesn't agree with you is some radical liberal with an agenda. It's a peer reviewed scholarly journal.

If you presented any argument, never mind coherent , well thought out and supported, I would drop dead from shock.
Here ya go!

Now, are you going to say this links are biased? Are you going to say that Pakistani kids working in closets are actually PhDs?

Oh I see! So you're saying a specific area of India with access to resources that is legally producing guns is proof that Americans with high school shop experience can illegally produce guns in their basements.

This is the best support you can find? A cherry picked youtube outlier from half way across the world of legal gun production that doesn't even apply to the conversation? So again let's recap: I make a point and support it with evidence that proves the point. You take an unsupported guess and show a youtube video that has little to do with your guess outside of the general topic of conversation. Awesome.

 

[CMike]

I did quote from it, here it is --- AGAIN.

"Two aspects of the K-G survey combine to create severe misestimation. The first is the likelihood of positive social desirability response, sometimes referred to as personal presentation bias. An individual who purchases a gun for self-defense and then uses it successfully to ward off a criminal is displaying the wisdom of his precautions and his capability in protecting himself, his loved ones, and his property. His action is to be commended and admired."

Basically he is accusing the respondents of lying.