Zone1 Mormons are fine, but I have to call BS on the golden plates story.

[Zebra]

Not just the Baptists. Every mainstream denomination refers to LDS as a cult. LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses are the two largest "Christian" cults. Another problem is the King James English. Why? The people weren't speaking King James English in early 1800s America.

good question!

 

[Zebra]

When I was 19 years old, I was proselytized by two Mormon missionaries for six months. They were very nice people I liked them. I also wanted to become a Mormon. I thought that Mormonism leant itself to a rational evaluation in ways the other religions did not. No one can prove that Jesus rose from the dead after dying on the cross. No one prove he did not. No one can prove that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed. No one can he did not.

The Book of Mormon, which I have on my desk as I type these words, claims to be a detailed history of pre Columbian America from about 600 B.C. to 421 A.D.

Since the Book of Mormon was written archaeologists have learned a great deal about what was really happening in the New World at that time. There is no independent evidence that any of the events written about in The Book of Mormon happened, and much evidence that it did not.

By contrast, the Bible mentions empires and people that we know existed because of evidence independent of the Bible.

Also, the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham has been found and translated. Contrary to what Joseph Smith said, the manuscript makes no mention of Abraham's travels in Egypt. Instead, it mentions ancient Egyptian deities.

I was sorry to make these discoveries, because I wanted to become a Mormon.

good arguments

 

[Zebra]

btw ... there is a poll on this topic now

 

[MarathonMike]

When I was 19 years old, I was proselytized by two Mormon missionaries for six months. They were very nice people I liked them. I also wanted to become a Mormon. I thought that Mormonism leant itself to a rational evaluation in ways the other religions did not. No one can prove that Jesus rose from the dead after dying on the cross. No one prove he did not. No one can prove that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed. No one can he did not.

The Book of Mormon, which I have on my desk as I type these words, claims to be a detailed history of pre Columbian America from about 600 B.C. to 421 A.D.

Since the Book of Mormon was written archaeologists have learned a great deal about what was really happening in the New World at that time. There is no independent evidence that any of the events written about in The Book of Mormon happened, and much evidence that it did not.

By contrast, the Bible mentions empires and people that we know existed because of evidence independent of the Bible.

Also, the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham has been found and translated. Contrary to what Joseph Smith said, the manuscript makes no mention of Abraham's travels in Egypt. Instead, it mentions ancient Egyptian deities.

I was sorry to make these discoveries, because I wanted to become a Mormon.

Interesting post, thanks.

 

[Zebra]

As was L. Ron Hubbard, Muhammed, and Saul/Paul. All con-men figuring out how to gain power thru religion.

interesting

 

[Zebra]

I was told by the Mormon missionaries who proselytized me that I should read The Book of Mormon, and pray to the Holy Ghost to tell me if the Book of Mormon is true. If the Book of Mormon is true, I would get "a burning in my bosom." I did all that, but I felt no "burning in my bosom."

The Book of Mormon makes assertions that are clearly untrue. It says that the American Indians are descended from Jewish refugees who cross the Atlantic Ocean about 600 B.C, DNA evidence clearly links the American Indians to people living today in northern Siberia.

The Book of Mormon says that there were horses in the Americas, back then. The Indians had long since then hunted horses to extinction. The Book of Mormon claims that wheat existed in the Americas. Wheat did not get there until after the time of Columbus.

The Mayans had a system of writing when the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the New World. Mayan writing makes no mention of this.

A manuscript cannot have two very different meanings. The manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham has been found and translated by people who really can read ancient Egyptian. The manuscript makes no mention of Abraham. It mentions ancient Egyptian deities.

good arguments

 

[Hector12]

As was L. Ron Hubbard, Muhammed, and Saul/Paul. All con-men figuring out how to gain power thru religion.

St. Paul was flogged several times and eventually executed because of his ministry. I think he was sincere.

I do not know about L. Ron Hubbard. Muhammed and Joseph Smith won temporal rewards because of the religions they formed.

 

[Hector12]

A manuscript can't have different meanings? Heck, there are 40,000 different sects of Christianity because of the interpretations of the Bible have different meanings to them. Not only that, you assume that the writings of the Pearl of Great Price came from a specific part of the scrolls. Refer back to Jeff Lindsay's writings on this subject. It's funny how so much recently has found strong points of the Book of Abraham. See, patience is a key and an attribute of Jesus Christ. Something we all should have as well. Enjoy the reading if you are truly seeking truth. If not, you should consider not using old outdated attacks.

The Bible has different interpretations, but it is still a reasonably accurate history of the Near East from about 1200 BC to about 70 AD. It is not simultaneously about the Near East and China.

The manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham. has been found. This is clear from looking at facsimile No. 1, No 2, and No 3 in the Book of Abraham, and the manuscript itself:

The manuscript has been translated by reputable Egyptologists. It is taken from the ancient Egyptian Book of Breathings. Nowhere is there mention of Abraham and his travels in Egypt. When I learned about this it was obvious to me that Joseph was a religious charlatan. He was not a prophet. He was not even deluded. He was a deliberate liar.

 

[ding]

St. Paul was flogged several times and eventually executed because of his ministry. I think he was sincere.

I do not know about L. Ron Hubbard. Muhammed and Joseph Smith won temporal rewards because of the religions they formed.

Immediately after the 1Corinthians 15 kerygma (with its list of witnesses), Paul presents an interesting dilemma which could apply to all the witnesses in that list:

First side of the dilemma: …if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are also found to be false witnesses of God because we witnessed before God that He raised Christ…

The other side of the dilemma: If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. …Why am I in peril every hour? …I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die” (1Cor 15:14-32).

If we look at this passage carefully, we can see the makings of a classical dilemma which has the objective of verifying the witness value not only of Paul, but also of the Twelve, the 500, James, and the “other apostles.” From a legal perspective, the most objective way of validating a witness’ testimony is to show that that witness has “everything to lose, and nothing to gain.” From the opposite perspective, a witness who has everything to gain and nothing to lose may be telling the truth, but there is no extrinsic way of validating this. Indeed, there is a haunting suspicion that the witness may be acting in his own self-interest. A better witness would be one who had nothing to gain or lose, for at least he would not be acting in his own self-interest. But the best witness would be one who had everything to lose (and nothing to gain) because this witness would be acting against his own self-interest, which is a disposition which most of us want desperately to avoid. I believe that Paul is trying to show that not only he, but also the others in the list of witnesses, are in this category, and therefore deserve to be ranked among the best possible witnesses.

 

[Hector12]

I actually like Mormon missionaries, but because you are getting nasty, I can get nasty too.

I know it takes a lot of courage to knock on doors the way they do. I tell them politely that I think Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a charlatan, and I explain why I think that.

I was overly harsh with this comment. have talked to many Mormon missionaries. I never told any of them that Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a charlatan. I did tell them about my study of Joseph Smith's claims.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I dont see how the 10 Commandments fairy tale is any more believable than the Golden Plates fairy tale. They're the same fairy tale.

 

[Zebra]

I dont see how the 10 Commandments fairy tale is any more believable than the Golden Plates fairy tale. They're the same fairy tale.

seems Smith tried to imitate Moses

 

[BULLDOG]

Kind of like Moses and the Ten Commandments

Where are they?

I had them but I broke them

So where are the parts?

 

[Cougarbear]

The Bible has different interpretations, but it is still a reasonably accurate history of the Near East from about 1200 BC to about 70 AD. It is not simultaneously about the Near East and China.

The manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham. has been found. This is clear from looking at facsimile No. 1, No 2, and No 3 in the Book of Abraham, and the manuscript itself:

View attachment 1164031

The manuscript has been translated by reputable Egyptologists. It is taken from the ancient Egyptian Book of Breathings. Nowhere is there mention of Abraham and his travels in Egypt. When I learned about this it was obvious to me that Joseph was a religious charlatan. He was not a prophet. He was not even deluded. He was a deliberate liar.

Start at 14:25 and check out the information. Also, www.pearlofgreatpricecentral.org

 

[Zebra]

The story is bunkum. There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and Smith's translation ability was proven to be total nonsense through his faux translation of the "Book of Abraham." This document was later proven to be a funerary tract, having nothing to do with Abraham, and written more than a thousand years after Abraham lived. The silly group of toadies who claimed to have seen the golden plates have mostly been neutered through later admissions and disavowing.

People who actually think about reality have determined that given the specific gravity of gold and the length of the BoM, the plates would have had to weigh at least a hundred pounds, which is totally inconsistent with Smith's tales of him carrying them around as though it were no heavier than a conventional, paper bible.

When you TRANSLATE a work from another language, you take the original meaning, and re-state it into the target language - in this case 19th century American English. Smith didn't do that. He created a document that employs 16th century British English, just like the King James Version. But Smith didn't understand the niceties of that language, misusing Thee, Thou, and adding "est" to verbs in a helter-skelter fashion.

The "history" set forth in the BoM is totally preposterous. It mentions horses, camels, cows, sheep, none of which existed in the pre-Columbian Americas. He talks of iron swords and breastplates; again, there was no iron in these continents. Same for chariots; the wheel had not yet been discovered in pre-Columbus days. In fact, Brigham Young University has spent more than a hundred years and untold resources trying to find a single archaeological proof of the BoM. Total failure. Nothing. Not a single artifact.

Those who are impressed by little things like genetics have noted that, although Smith believed that Amerindians were the descendants of the BoM Semitic people, but there is no genetic indication that this is the case.

Those who have done even a little bit of investigation know that an early partial draft of the Book was destroyed by the wife of Smith's co-conspirator, Oliver Cowdery. Smith, fearful that Ms. Cowdery was lying, agreed to re-translate the text, but cautioned Cowdery that the text might not be the same as the original text. Why would be do this if he was actually translating, and not making it up?

Nothing against Mormons, but their religion is based on quicksand.

he was an amateur at inventing religions

 

[Seymour Flops]

I've read a fair amount on the various major religions and I have to say, the story of Angel Moroni and the Golden Plates is the most suspect of all the stories I've read. Is there a Mormon out there who can better explain or defend why he or she believes these plates exist and were given to the Prophet Joseph to transcribe the Book of Mormon? This is not a knock on Mormons I have friends who are Mormons and they are very nice people and do lots of good things in the community and have good families. It's the Golden Plates story that just sounds like pure fantasy to me.

But do you not find the stories of talking serpants, two of every animal on the Ark, Jesus dying on the cross and walking around showing the holes in his hands, etc. just as unbelievable?

All religious tales of miracles seem unlikely to a nonbeliever.

 

[Robert W]

he was an amateur at inventing religions

What is amazing is how Muhammad started a religion that to this very day forces Muslims globally to drop to their knees, heed the prayer call and if they don't, they are not following their own religion. Muslim's goal is world domination.
Mormons don't do any of that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What is amazing is how Muhammad started a religion that to this very day forces Muslims globally to drop to their knees, heed the prayer call and if they don't, they are not following their own religion. Muslim's goal is world domination.
Mormons don't do any of that.

Right, their goal was simply to foment a cult pyramid scheme.

 

[Robert W]

Right, their goal was simply to foment a cult pyramid scheme.

We Mormons never did that. What do you think about how

Muslims plan to take the world over?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We Mormons never did that. What do you think about how

Muslims plan to take the world over?

You didn't, the deluded criminals who invented your religion did that.