More lefties learn the glory of the 15 dollar minimum wage....unemployment.....

[Flopper]

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?
Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

Dont be a dumbass. Building a burger/chicken/fish sandwich machine is child's play.
You really need to look into CNC machines that can build an engine block out of a solid hunk of an aluminum or cast steel...in one set up.
Talk to me when you really understand the true ability of computerized numerical control... at this point you just sound foolish.

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Dont be a dumbass. Building a burger/chicken/fish sandwich machine is child's play.
You really need to look into CNC machines that can build an engine block out of a solid hunk of an aluminum or cast steel...in one set up.
Talk to me when you really understand the true ability of computerized numerical control... at this point you just sound foolish.

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

Again ....you dont know shit.
Let me know when you know you know shit about automation.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Dont be a dumbass. Building a burger/chicken/fish sandwich machine is child's play.
You really need to look into CNC machines that can build an engine block out of a solid hunk of an aluminum or cast steel...in one set up.
Talk to me when you really understand the true ability of computerized numerical control... at this point you just sound foolish.

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Dont be a dumbass. Building a burger/chicken/fish sandwich machine is child's play.
You really need to look into CNC machines that can build an engine block out of a solid hunk of an aluminum or cast steel...in one set up.
Talk to me when you really understand the true ability of computerized numerical control... at this point you just sound foolish.

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

And again you dont know shit.
A machine that can build a burger is childs play compared to a machine that can build a car block.

 

[Flopper]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

Nonsense --- there's not a nickel's difference between cooking chicken or hamburgers. One of the prime concerns when making 'menu changes' is to 1) not use anything new - just find different ways to present the same raw materials, 2) use the same delivery methods in order to avoid increased training costs, and 3) increase profitability for the same materials.

Actually, automation is extremely flexible --- it's just a matter of building it to be flexible.

I beg to differ. There is a huge difference in preparing a hamburger, a fried chicken sandwich, eggs, or pancakes. Fast food restaurants build their menu by adding new food items to see how they sell. If they are successful, then they become a staple item on the menu. What you're suggesting is that restaurants will limit their menu to items this machine can prepare. It seems highly unlike that major fast food franchises would prefer this to raising prices to cover minimum wage increase. In fact, this is exactly what McDonald's is doing. It started raising prices last year and will continue to do so in order pay employees $1 over local minimum wage by July 1, 2015. The average employee will be making over $10/hr in 2016. It doesn't sound like McDonald is going to buy any burger machines.

You do realize that with every minimum wage increase proposed both state and federal, opponents have tried to scare employees with claims of massive job loss which never happens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/business/mcdonalds-raising-pay-for-employees.html

I don't try to scare anybody ---- but, I don't want you back here bitching because the unemployment rate went up 3 months later. Someday, you'll figure out the cost of labor, and the resulting automation to offset it, is the reason we haven't had robust job growth in 6 years.

Actually, in 2014 we had the greatest job growth since 1999, 2.6 million new jobs. The last minimum wage increase prior to the recession was in 1997/98 in which the minimum wage increased 21%. During this period the economy added 6.3 million jobs, the greatest job growth in 20 years. There is simply no evidence that raises in the minimum wage reduces job growth.

 

[Flopper]

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

And again you dont know shit.
A machine that can build a burger is childs play compared to a machine that can build a car block.

Of course you can build a burger machine but can you build a burger machine that meets the current and future needs of the restaurant at a price that makes sense.

 

[Steinlight]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

 

[Flopper]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

 

[Steinlight]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

 

[Brain357]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters - U.S. Department of Labor

 

[Brain357]

CNC machines don't cook food...

They absolutely can. Talk to me when you've spent 25 years working with em.
You truly dont know shit about automation.

A machine that can hold tenths of a thousands can make a burger without breaking a sweat.

There is no question as to whether it's possible. The question is whether a machine can be built at a reasonable price to provide burgers to the restaurant's specification, prepare the other foods the kitchen help must prepare, and be flexible enough to prepare other items the restaurant may decide to add to their menu.

The cost comes in when you start talking about precision.
The cost of precision when your talking about cutting tomatoes is a joke.

I would say the cost would be pretty high for a machine that would cook everything the kitchen prepares and any items management might want to add to the menu plus meet all customer requests.

Again ....you dont know shit.
Let me know when you know you know shit about automation.

The way you talk I don't understand why anyone is still hiring people to make food. I guess it's because in reality the machines you claim can be made so easily don't exist. You still have provided no links to support your wild claims.

 

[Indofred]

then close the doors and do something else with your life.

Yes, outsource from China.
Cheaper, less problem and you make more money.

 

[EverCurious]

I try to read the studies, the statistics, the long term projections and reflections, but I always come back to what I know from personal experience...

As a manager for a number of small businesses run by family friends I've had to go without paychecks on countless occasions so the bills got paid. I've counseled the owner's numerous times that we're not even breaking even, much less making a profit, that something has to give; prices go up, streamline, someone get laid off... When the prices are already higher than the local market can support, things are efficiently run, there's nothing left but to let people go; so I end up firing these kids. Everyone thinks I should feel bad about it, but I don't because they get fired for a reason; because they are constantly late, because they sluff their job off on their co-workers, because "its too hard" when in reality it's not.

When I go into some fast food place, or the checkout at the store, or a local coffee shop, I see these same types everywhere; clueless, wandering around with no care for their job, etc. These are the people who are going to get fired if min wage gets shot up. I don't particularly care about their fate, they can starve until they learn how to be /worth/ $10-$15/h, but I also know that those people are going to have a hard time "getting away with" the "minor" shit we managers let them get away with for a lower price. I almost find it funny that these people don't realize we /see/ the crap they're doing and let it go because it's not worth /our/ time to deal with, because it's not really affecting our bottom line so we let them get away with shit. Then they whine about not getting paid enough and we're like, nope. Not because we're greedy like all these 99% want to think, but because that employee isn't /worth/ more pay.

All the arguments for making a living wage, for income equality, such a foolish and short-sided view over what 3-5% of the employed population. These 3-5% of people who can't seem to get themselves over minimum wage's /worth/ in the eyes of an employer, or who can't qualify to do a better paying job... They're not going to make it through this with a "living" wage, they're going to have less hours, or get canned. So basically all this whining for an increased min wage, is not going to help these 3-5% of folks, it's going to drive more of them into poverty. I /almost/ feel bad for them all, but I know the deserving ones will rise to the challenge, they'll get their 2yrs of experience, work harder, and get "real" jobs that not only support their family, but buy them some nice things to boot. The rest of them though... The slackers, the always late's, the "its too hard's", the ones who don't care about their job - they are going to be in for a rude awakening.

I believe I've said it before; by all means, crank up that minimum wage, those of us who know better are going to be shaking our heads when all the "fluff workers" learn just how "nice" most owners and managers have actually been. The corporate world will be even more cut-throat than it already is, those types won't even get their foot in the door before someone politically assassinates their career, just to get ahead of them. Then, yet again, those people will find themselves stuck in a minimum wage job that can't pay their rising bills, and of course whining that someone else is making more then they do...

Managers will still make more, CEO's will still make more, and the wealthy are not going to feel the effects of the higher prices as they make more. Companies will continue to operate on established budgets that dictate how much they can afford to pay our employees, they will continue to recognize the global economy and hire in other countries, they will continue to invest in the stock market and [potentially] make more than those who can't afford to do so, and just maybe all the bleeding hearts will eventually understand that all the tears and compassion in the world cannot help these spoiled US employee's who do not want to better themselves, who do not want to work, who do not /care/ to make more of their lives than dead-end entry-level skill jobs which have a set cap on wages.

 

[skookerasbil]

simpleton thinking as applied to economics is ghey. Only the PC zombies think its a good idea to raise the minimum wage........populist BS rhetoric that ensures more trickle up poverty in society!!


Evercurious............real good post!!

 

[Brain357]

Keep in mind that low income people are a big customer base for fast food. If workers are replaced by machines that is unemploying the customer base. That is bad for sales.

 

[EverCurious]

I was originally thinking that automation would fly in the US simply because of the bad PR. If the Popeye's thing recently proved anything it's that the vocal majority in the US has soft hearts and they'd likely have a total hissy fit. At first I was thinking the only viable way to put in automation in fast food would be in opening /new/ places then slowly over time replacing the ones with employees kind of deal.

But then I remembered that they also have a transient rate of like 78%, with the min wage increases coming in, they could pull it off without any public uproar by just not hiring any new employees and having the automation systems waiting in the wings. Hell it's entirely possible they're already on it... McDonald's just announced that they're going to start paying employee's $10/h and I kind of had to think to myself why are they doing that given their average franchise profit margins, but then in prep for that they started kicking everyone down to part time so I was like oh I see (wage expense stays the same and they just don't have as much dead weight around.) Now I'm kinda wondering if they've got something like automation up their sleeve already... It'd make sense to start in the back too, less viewable by the public, then move onto the front folks; especially since the cooks are likely paid more than the counter folks. We'll see what happens when ACA and min wage (theirs or the fed's) kicks in in earnest.

 

[Brain357]

I was originally thinking that automation would fly in the US simply because of the bad PR. If the Popeye's thing recently proved anything it's that the vocal majority in the US has soft hearts and they'd likely have a total hissy fit. At first I was thinking the only viable way to put in automation in fast food would be in opening /new/ places then slowly over time replacing the ones with employees kind of deal.

But then I remembered that they also have a transient rate of like 78%, with the min wage increases coming in, they could pull it off without any public uproar by just not hiring any new employees and having the automation systems waiting in the wings. Hell it's entirely possible they're already on it... McDonald's just announced that they're going to start paying employee's $10/h and I kind of had to think to myself why are they doing that given their average franchise profit margins, but then in prep for that they started kicking everyone down to part time so I was like oh I see (wage expense stays the same and they just don't have as much dead weight around.) Now I'm kinda wondering if they've got something like automation up their sleeve already... It'd make sense to start in the back too, less viewable by the public, then move onto the front folks; especially since the cooks are likely paid more than the counter folks. We'll see what happens when ACA and min wage (theirs or the fed's) kicks in in earnest.

Sounds baseless given there really aren't any burger making machines in use.

 

[EverCurious]

Not yet, we'll see.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

$15/HR is ridiculous. But so is $7.25/HR.

Anyone who disagrees with either of those statements is likewise ridiculous.

 

[Brain357]

Not yet, we'll see.

Again their customer base is low income. Increasing min wage increases sales. Unemploying people with machines is untested and decreases sales.