Minimum Wage

[The Rabbi]

And what world do you live in? Factories are paying temp workers normally $8.00 to $9.00an hour to work in here in the Midwest. And that is increasingly becoming their workforce. No insurance, no unemployment benefits!

And those jobs are going begging, right? No one wants to work for those kinds of wages/benefits.

 

[zzzz]

And what world do you live in? Factories are paying temp workers normally $8.00 to $9.00an hour to work in here in the Midwest. And that is increasingly becoming their workforce. No insurance, no unemployment benefits!

And those jobs are going begging, right? No one wants to work for those kinds of wages/benefits.

No they are not. A lot of people have no choice because they have no unemployment left or they have none in the first place. Sure even here in Indiana the Hipanics are a comsiderable portion of the temp workers but there are a lot of born Americans taking these jobs too.

 

[hortysir]

Minimum wage increase was just one nail in the coffin of small businesses.

Now we have dim-bulbs working towards a maximum wage.

Maybe, one day, we'll all meet in the middle......

Let me get this straight, manufucturing business in China pay now (because of their growing success and workers as a whole demanding more), $0.88-$1.00 an hour. Mexican workers make the same, but you still have Guatamalian, Haitian and other 3rd world shitholes that get by paying pennies a hour/day to their workers.

Manufacturing jobs in America all pay above the minimum wage, in fact they get to $15-35 an hour! So how was raising the minimum wage a nail in the coffin.

Who did minimum wage effect? Restaurants and service industry! The industry that has primarily NOT and CAN NOT go over seas.

What we need is to reduce taxes, spending and costs to our businesses (through employer health insurance and overbearing regulation costs), then they will come and stay!!!

That's exactly who I'm concerned about.
Never said anything about manufacturing or outsourcing.
Being a restaurant proprietor, I see the dents in the bottom line every time MW gets increased.

 

[The Rabbi]

And what world do you live in? Factories are paying temp workers normally $8.00 to $9.00an hour to work in here in the Midwest. And that is increasingly becoming their workforce. No insurance, no unemployment benefits!

And those jobs are going begging, right? No one wants to work for those kinds of wages/benefits.

No they are not. A lot of people have no choice because they have no unemployment left or they have none in the first place. Sure even here in Indiana the Hipanics are a comsiderable portion of the temp workers but there are a lot of born Americans taking these jobs too.

Yup.
QED.
Having a job is better than not having one. If the gov't mandated health insurance etc for temporary workers those jobs would dry up too, leaving the workers out in cold with no job prospects at all.
And some people think this is preferable.

 

[GHook93]

Sure we need to support the economy but if you are making minimum wage, where are you going to buy clothes? China-mart or Levis at another American store?

Walmart does have some US made clothes. Look it up. I don't buy exclusively US made clothes, but I make an effort to get them. However, when you buy clothes at Walmart or Target you pay for what you get. Low quality and not fashionable. I buy some work clothes that I don't care about. But Jeans and dress shirt! LOL, I can spend a few extra dollars not to look like a douche bag!

It comes down to getting the best bargain for most Americans and that is the capitalist way.

Price matters no doubt, but when its comes to clothes, they are not a commodity! The look, feel and quality matter more than price in most cases!

A lot of designer clothes that cost crazy amounts (that my wife lovess, ouch!!!) are made from all over the board, some US, some Europe, some Latin America, some Africa and some Asia. Nevertheless it comes down to quality in many cases. Its kind of like art. You could buy that ugly painting for a dollar, or that magnificent painting for $1000.

A more important trend in the workforce is the proliferation of temporary work services. Companies are turning more and more to these temp services to employ citizens thereby avoiding unemployment taxes, workers insurance and they acquire the flexibility to hire and fire at will. They can hire you for a few hours and then let you go. If the trend continues most of the general laborer jobs in the US will be permanent temp jobs. In addition to the temp jobs companies are eliminating insurance to full time employees. So what are you getting if your get $7.25 an hour? No insurance and increasingly no steady job.

Not the manufacturing sector. It takes cost and month to train their employees. Some might do this, but that would be a bad business move for most.

 

[boedicca]

If you can't afford to pay the minimum wage, then you shouldn't be in business in the first place. You are not qualified to be an employer.

There is NO INALEINABLE RIGHT TO BUSINESS!

The minimum wage should be indexed against the cost of living in the area.

I beg to differ.

We all have the inalieanble right to pursue our own vocation, which may include starting or running a business. Nobody forces an employee to accept a job at the offered wage. If the pay is not competitive, the business will have difficulty recruiting and retraining qualified staff.

There should not be a minimum wage. 5/6th of minimum wage earners are not heads of households; they are teenagers or people earning supplemental income for the household. A high minimum wage causes higher unemployment for teens, denying them the ability to learn skills and develop good work habits. A delay in entering the workforce is something that will affect them the rest of their lives - negatively.

Minimum wage proponents often claim that a higher wage floor will reduce poverty, ignoring that most minimum wage earners aren't poor. "A small fraction of minimum-wage workers are the sole breadwinner for their family," said Mr. Macpherson in an interview. "Historically, the number is one-in-six. So five-in-six are either secondary earners, or kids living with mom and dad, or kids living alone, such as college students."

Research by economists David Neumark and William Wascher has shown that minimum wage hikes also fail as an antipoverty measure because workers who receive the higher wage are counterbalanced by others who get laid off. Minimum wage laws are especially detrimental to black workers, who tend to be less experienced or have been trapped in failing public schools. The overall teen unemployment rate in June was 25.7%, versus 39.9% for black teens.

Young and Jobless - WSJ.com

 

[GHook93]

Minimum wage increase was just one nail in the coffin of small businesses.

Now we have dim-bulbs working towards a maximum wage.

Maybe, one day, we'll all meet in the middle......

Let me get this straight, manufucturing business in China pay now (because of their growing success and workers as a whole demanding more), $0.88-$1.00 an hour. Mexican workers make the same, but you still have Guatamalian, Haitian and other 3rd world shitholes that get by paying pennies a hour/day to their workers.

Manufacturing jobs in America all pay above the minimum wage, in fact they get to $15-35 an hour! So how was raising the minimum wage a nail in the coffin.

Who did minimum wage effect? Restaurants and service industry! The industry that has primarily NOT and CAN NOT go over seas.

What we need is to reduce taxes, spending and costs to our businesses (through employer health insurance and overbearing regulation costs), then they will come and stay!!!

That's exactly who I'm concerned about.
Never said anything about manufacturing or outsourcing.
Being a restaurant proprietor, I see the dents in the bottom line every time MW gets increased.

Well when your talking about jobs getting outsourced you are primarily taking about manufacturing jobs (although call centers and R & D jobs are getting sent to India). Therefore, the minimum wage primarily effects the consumer service and restaurant industry. These jobs aren't going overseas.

It has effected consumer service call centers. But cost of property to have these centers, health insurance costs, taxation, overbearing regulations have done more to cause this then salaries. Same with the R & D sector!

Now we have dim-bulbs working towards a maximum wage.

Very true, but you also get the support of knowing your business can not and will not be outsourced. I mean I am not going to order my steak dinner online from China to be delivered in a week! You have a piece of mind knowing you won't have to compete on the global market for customer (heck not even on the national market), not the same for your vendors through. Imagine if you owned the company that manufactured grills! They would have to compete with <$1 wages in the 3rd world, while at a minimum they would have to pay their employees $15 a hour. They are effected most, but not by the minimum wage.

Personally most would like the piece of mind you get from not having to be outsourced! If that makes any sense!

 

[The Rabbi]

Price matters no doubt, but when its comes to clothes, they are not a commodity! The look, feel and quality matter more than price in most cases!

A lot of designer clothes that cost crazy amounts (that my wife lovess, ouch!!!) are made from all over the board, some US, some Europe, some Latin America, some Africa and some Asia. Nevertheless it comes down to quality in many cases. Its kind of like art. You could buy that ugly painting for a dollar, or that magnificent painting for $1000.

That doesn't make them not a commodity, like any other item where you have high end merchandise and low end.
I specifically buy the cheapest jackets I can because I wear them everyday and will wear one out in a year to 18 months, no matter what. No point buying expensive clothes.

 

[zzzz]

Not the manufacturing sector. It takes cost and month to train their employees. Some might do this, but that would be a bad business move for most.

Have you been in a factory lately? There is less and less demand for highly trained employees because these jobs are being replaced with machines. To train employees how to run and monitor the machines takes a minimal amount of time. The people who are trained to repair and set up these machines are permanent employees but fewer of them are needed. Temps are filling those positions. Companies can work them 6 months and not pay insurance, vacation time or unemployment. They get rid of them and hire another temp to fill the position. Some temps actually are working in the same job for 2 years and still listed as temps. This is the future!

 

[hortysir]

Let me get this straight, manufucturing business in China pay now (because of their growing success and workers as a whole demanding more), $0.88-$1.00 an hour. Mexican workers make the same, but you still have Guatamalian, Haitian and other 3rd world shitholes that get by paying pennies a hour/day to their workers.

Manufacturing jobs in America all pay above the minimum wage, in fact they get to $15-35 an hour! So how was raising the minimum wage a nail in the coffin.

Who did minimum wage effect? Restaurants and service industry! The industry that has primarily NOT and CAN NOT go over seas.

What we need is to reduce taxes, spending and costs to our businesses (through employer health insurance and overbearing regulation costs), then they will come and stay!!!

That's exactly who I'm concerned about.
Never said anything about manufacturing or outsourcing.
Being a restaurant proprietor, I see the dents in the bottom line every time MW gets increased.

Well when your talking about jobs getting outsourced you are primarily taking about manufacturing jobs (although call centers and R & D jobs are getting sent to India). Therefore, the minimum wage primarily effects the consumer service and restaurant industry. These jobs aren't going overseas.

It has effected consumer service call centers. But cost of property to have these centers, health insurance costs, taxation, overbearing regulations have done more to cause this then salaries. Same with the R & D sector!

Now we have dim-bulbs working towards a maximum wage.

Very true, but you also get the support of knowing your business can not and will not be outsourced. I mean I am not going to order my steak dinner online from China to be delivered in a week! You have a piece of mind knowing you won't have to compete on the global market for customer (heck not even on the national market), not the same for your vendors through. Imagine if you owned the company that manufactured grills! They would have to compete with <$1 wages in the 3rd world, while at a minimum they would have to pay their employees $15 a hour. They are effected most, but not by the minimum wage.

Personally most would like the piece of mind you get from not having to be outsourced! If that makes any sense!

I think we're arguing the same point, as I agree with your points.

I do have some piece of mind knowing my job won't be sent to China.

I was just pointing out that I wasn't talking about mftg or exporting jobs.

 

[JBeukema]

Nobody seems to be talking about the increased Minimum Wage anymore.

A couple years back, the Dems were saying that this was something that would really spur the economy and help boot strap the poor into the middle class.

The Reps were saying that the Minimum Wage was a trasitional wage for most and that increasing this would hurt the economy and reduce the employment rate among the young and hurt minority new hires.

Any opinions on which side might have hit closer to the Bull's Eye?

It seems every time they increase the minimum wage, prices go up more and businesses cut hours and it's even harder to eat

 

[JBeukema]

Nobody seems to be talking about the increased Minimum Wage anymore.

A couple years back, the Dems were saying that this was something that would really spur the economy and help boot strap the poor into the middle class.

The Reps were saying that the Minimum Wage was a trasitional wage for most and that increasing this would hurt the economy and reduce the employment rate among the young and hurt minority new hires.

Any opinions on which side might have hit closer to the Bull's Eye?

I have never believed in the whole minimum wage mind-set. The lower wages are, the more people a company can employ to help others feed their families, and sustain a reduced impact on inflation.

See The Condition of the working Class in England in 1844.

Minimum wages were put in place for a reason.

However, people try to place the min. wage too high, and like unions that get greedy, it becomes counterproductive.
Properly done, should not the workers' efforts to find higher wages (unions and the job market) drive wages higher, once total we ensure they can't be so lowered so much as to return to working class to starvation?

 

[jillian]

Minimum Wage, Davis-Bacon, et. al, are all artificial contructs that obscure the true view of the Market.

thank heaven.

 

[JBeukema]

The empirical evidence on the minimum wage is mixed. There are some studies which conclude that it decreases employment and there are others which conclude it increases employment.

Perhaps it is a matter of extent?

 

[JBeukema]

If you can't afford to pay the minimum wage, then you shouldn't be in business in the first place. You are not qualified to be an employer.

There is NO INALEINABLE RIGHT TO BUSINESS!

The minimum wage should be indexed against the cost of living in the area.

So a factor in determining cost of living should be determined by the cost of living?

Something about that doesn't add up

 

[Annie]

Nobody seems to be talking about the increased Minimum Wage anymore.

A couple years back, the Dems were saying that this was something that would really spur the economy and help boot strap the poor into the middle class.

The Reps were saying that the Minimum Wage was a trasitional wage for most and that increasing this would hurt the economy and reduce the employment rate among the young and hurt minority new hires.

Any opinions on which side might have hit closer to the Bull's Eye?

Young and Jobless - WSJ.com

Today marks the first anniversary of Congress's decision to raise the federal minimum wage by 41% to $7.25 an hour. But hold the confetti. According to a new study, more than 100,000 fewer teens are employed today due to the wage hikes.

Economic slowdowns are tough on many job-seekers, but they're especially hard on the young and inexperienced, whose job prospects have suffered tremendously from Washington's ill-advised attempts to put a floor under wages. In a new paper published by the Employment Policies Institute, labor economists William Even of Miami University in ...

Got to subscribe for full story.

Actually I found the link to the paper:

The Teen Employment Crisis: The Effects of the 2007 - 2009 Federal Minimum Wage Increases on Teen Employment | EPI Study

It's not pretty for teens or those re-entering the job force to help out with loss of employment of main breadwinner....

 

[JBeukema]

If you can't afford to pay the minimum wage, then you shouldn't be in business in the first place. You are not qualified to be an employer.

There is NO INALEINABLE RIGHT TO BUSINESS!

The minimum wage should be indexed against the cost of living in the area.

So people shouldn't have jobs. Is that what you are saying?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Working for minimum wage or less is just about the equivalent of not having a job.

Being able to put a roof over your head and food in the stomach, even if that's all you can do, is far different from not being able to do that.

If you don't grasp that, you must have never been without a job and tried to to work your way out of homelessness.

Still dependent on the petty bourgeoisie? Yes. Near enough to be truly comfortable? No. A LOT better than you are without? Definitely.

 

[JBeukema]

Supply and demand?

Are you implying that the supply of jobs would increase just because they pay less?

Explain that to me.

Yes, That is exactly what I am saying.
Let me give a concrete example. I have an ammunition company. One of the things we do is reload spent brass casings. Since these are usually picked up at ranges and thrown into a big bucket, the brass needs to be sorted by caliber. It is dull tedious work. If I could hire someone at 2.50 an hour to do, it would be worthwhile. At $8/hr it isnt. That is one job that doesn't exist because the min wage essentially outlaws it. Now, it might be that no one will work for 2.50/hr and the best I can get will be someone who would work for $8, in which case the job still won't materialize. But I would rather that be determined by market forces vs the heavy hand of the gov't.

Let me get this straight. You need to sort the spent casings by caliber yet you can't afford to hire someone to do it (because of minimum wage). So what do you do, just pick them up and leave them in a big pile somwhere? What's the point of that? Or do you do the sorting yourself, thus taking away time you could be devoting to other more productive tasks? Or do you just hire illegals like everyone else?

What about a machine?

We can sort different sized nuts and coins. Why not bullet casings?

 

[JBeukema]

And what world do you live in? Factories are paying temp workers normally $8.00 to $9.00an hour to work in here in the Midwest. And that is increasingly becoming their workforce. No insurance, no unemployment benefits!

And those jobs are going begging, right? No one wants to work for those kinds of wages/benefits.

It beats no job, and if it's more than one's currently making...

 

[Annie]

Nobody seems to be talking about the increased Minimum Wage anymore.

A couple years back, the Dems were saying that this was something that would really spur the economy and help boot strap the poor into the middle class.

The Reps were saying that the Minimum Wage was a trasitional wage for most and that increasing this would hurt the economy and reduce the employment rate among the young and hurt minority new hires.

Any opinions on which side might have hit closer to the Bull's Eye?

Young and Jobless - WSJ.com

Today marks the first anniversary of Congress's decision to raise the federal minimum wage by 41% to $7.25 an hour. But hold the confetti. According to a new study, more than 100,000 fewer teens are employed today due to the wage hikes.

Economic slowdowns are tough on many job-seekers, but they're especially hard on the young and inexperienced, whose job prospects have suffered tremendously from Washington's ill-advised attempts to put a floor under wages. In a new paper published by the Employment Policies Institute, labor economists William Even of Miami University in ...

Got to subscribe for full story.

Actually I found the link to the paper:

The Teen Employment Crisis: The Effects of the 2007 - 2009 Federal Minimum Wage Increases on Teen Employment | EPI Study

It's not pretty for teens or those re-entering the job force to help out with loss of employment of main breadwinner....

When teens work, they earn their own spending money or save for college or a combination of both. It's being killed.

...The authors’ conclusions aren’t shocking. Economic studies dating back to the 1940s have warned that raising the minimum wage will cause job loss for the least experienced workers, a finding that has only been strengthened by newer research. One recent book by Neumark and the Federal Reserve’s William Wascher summarized the economic consensus on the minimum wage this way: “[T]he literature that has emerged since the early 1990s on the employment effects of the minimum wage points quite clearly (…) to a reduction in employment opportunities for low-skilled and directly affected workers.”

Even and Macpherson’s research demonstrates that these employment reductions are very real, and felt most by teens with the least amount of education and experience. Future debates on a higher minimum wage should take careful account of the policy’s unintended consequences...

Now imagine that the 'father' or 'mother' have lost their job and the person taking care of the kids is trying to enter the job market...