Michael Vick released

[Skull Pilot]

So how do you describe the mistreatment of dogs in order to watch them tear each other limb from limb in a bloody battle to the death?

I describe it as cruelty.

How do you describe a person who derives pleasure from such "sport" if not one craving violence?

Being entertained by violence isn't exactly the same thing as pathological, wanton bloodlust. Are you suggesting that fans of MMA, boxing, football or hockey all have a pathological need to satisfy a bloodlust?

If this is not a twisted need for violence from which people derive some sort of perverse vicarious pleasure then why do it?

Money. And the pleasure derived from gambling. I've not seen one shred of evidence supporting the notion that Vick got off on torturing the dogs.

so he merely tortured them for money?

So that makes it OK

 

[Anguille]

He paid his legal debt to society yet I will personally continue to hold him in low esteem.

How other criminal athletes were treated in different cases makes no difference to my opinion of Michael Vick.

Beyond that, it's up to the NFL to allow him back into the league, as somewhere in the fine print they're allowed to discriminate in such a manner. Then it's up to individual owners whether or not they want him on their team so he may get a conditional contract of some sort, and if he does it will be fun to root against him.

RGS said something about his having been banned by the commissioner but I didn't see anything more on it. It's up to the NFL. I'm sure they will choose to do what ever they think is best for the future of the sport.

 

[Anguille]

It isn't just mani. Pit bulls are bred for nothing BUT pit fighting; hence, the name "pit" bull. They're inbred, vicious and unpredictable, and serve no real function as domesticated animals EXCEPT to pit fight.

They should be banned. Perhaps you need to face off against one in the street to see the light? Whether or not the owner was irresponsible is irrelevant to the fact that there's nothing between you and that dog at the time but air.

A bunch of crap. Your ignorance is showing, Gunny.

It is a bunch of crap, some of those same Pitts that he had fighting have been retrained and rehabilitated, Because they are born fighters doesn't mean they must be. A lot of people really won't have any other dog.

They are no more born fighters than any other dog. People have weird and uneducated ideas about biology and what constitutes a species of animal. Dogs have been domesticated for millennia. Dogs are dogs. Dog breeding is a very new practice and has not gone on long enough to have any significant effect on the species in terms of effecting the basic nature of the animal.

I've known plenty of pit bulls that were great family pets.

 

[Anguille]

Being entertained by violence isn't exactly the same thing as pathological, wanton bloodlust. Are you suggesting that fans of MMA, boxing, football or hockey all have a pathological need to satisfy a bloodlust?

Do dogs used in dog fighting have a choice? Athletes do. Comparing those sports to dog fighting is apples and oranges.

 

[Nevadamedic]

Who is he, and what'd he do? (Short version, please - I don't give a rip about sports - I just want to decide if I think he can ever repay his debt to society)

He tortured and murdered dogs.

There is no such thing as "murdering" a dog.

Yes there is. Electracuting it to death or drowning it because it wouldn't fight. That is murder.

 

[Anguille]

His career is toast.

Not so sure about that...This is what was written on the subject back in February:

It's not even a guarantee that Vick will be back in the NFL in 2009. Roger Goodell has said he won't consider reinstatement until Vick's legal obligations are settled, and that might not be until July. Plus, it's Goodell and he likes to drag things out, so don't expect a quick decision on Vick's future.

If Vick does get reinstated, it is still difficult to imagine that there will be too many teams lining up to give away draft picks in order to get a guy who's been in prison for the past 18 months and is due to get $15 million in 2009 from his current contract. More likely, teams will wait for Atlanta to release Vick, thus enabling them to sign him to a new, more logical deal.

Assuming that all these things happen, what's the most likely destination for Vick in 2009? Shutdown Corner lists the five most likely spots:
Where will Michael Vick play football in 2009? - Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm not a football fan but I would have a hard time supporting any team that had him on the roster. Unless he was to do something genuinely and sincerely helpful to see that dogs are better protected in the future. If he was to make a substantial donation to the SPA and make PSAs denouncing animal abuse.

 

[manifold]

Mani, "money" could not have possibly been an issue in this. Vick was right in the middle of a 130 million dollar contract. He had no reason to be fighting dogs to make money. He signed the richest deal in NFL history at the time of his contract, he was being paid like a king to do what he apparently loved to do.

This seems more to me like a "...but you can't take the ghetto out of the..." situation.

This said though, I think he paid his debt to society and should have the opportunity to come full circle and play football again.

My understanding is that he was helping his peeps make money.

 

[Anguille]

He tortured and murdered dogs.

There is no such thing as "murdering" a dog.

Yes there is. Electracuting it to death or drowning it because it wouldn't fight. That is murder.

Murder is a loose term in Gunny's eyes. You'll see him apply it where it suits his own purpose.

 

[asgardshill]

But does he have to eat dog crap?

I left that conclusion ambiguous on purpose. Vick must do what he feels is right - all I did was suggest one potential path to some small redemption.

 

[Anguille]

Mani, "money" could not have possibly been an issue in this. Vick was right in the middle of a 130 million dollar contract. He had no reason to be fighting dogs to make money. He signed the richest deal in NFL history at the time of his contract, he was being paid like a king to do what he apparently loved to do.

This seems more to me like a "...but you can't take the ghetto out of the..." situation.

This said though, I think he paid his debt to society and should have the opportunity to come full circle and play football again.

My understanding is that he was helping his peeps make money.

How does a person remain neutral when faced with animal torture? Either you are revolted by it or you get off on it. I suppose Mengele was only helping his "peeps"?

 

[manifold]

So how do you describe the mistreatment of dogs in order to watch them tear each other limb from limb in a bloody battle to the death?

I describe it as cruelty.



Being entertained by violence isn't exactly the same thing as pathological, wanton bloodlust. Are you suggesting that fans of MMA, boxing, football or hockey all have a pathological need to satisfy a bloodlust?

If this is not a twisted need for violence from which people derive some sort of perverse vicarious pleasure then why do it?

Money. And the pleasure derived from gambling. I've not seen one shred of evidence supporting the notion that Vick got off on torturing the dogs.

so he merely tortured them for money?

So that makes it OK

No, but perhaps forgiveable.

 

[manifold]

Mani, "money" could not have possibly been an issue in this. Vick was right in the middle of a 130 million dollar contract. He had no reason to be fighting dogs to make money. He signed the richest deal in NFL history at the time of his contract, he was being paid like a king to do what he apparently loved to do.

This seems more to me like a "...but you can't take the ghetto out of the..." situation.

This said though, I think he paid his debt to society and should have the opportunity to come full circle and play football again.

My understanding is that he was helping his peeps make money.

How does a person remain neutral when faced with animal torture? Either you are revolted by it or you get off on it. I suppose Mengele was only helping his "peeps"?

Methinks your emotions are getting the better of you. You stopped making sense and started posting angry jibberish about three pages ago.

 

[Nevadamedic]

There is no such thing as "murdering" a dog.

Yes there is. Electracuting it to death or drowning it because it wouldn't fight. That is murder.

Murder is a loose term in Gunny's eyes. You'll see him apply it where it suits his own purpose.

I have figured that out.........................

 

[Anguille]

My understanding is that he was helping his peeps make money.

How does a person remain neutral when faced with animal torture? Either you are revolted by it or you get off on it. I suppose Mengele was only helping his "peeps"?

Methinks your emotions are getting the better of you. You stopped making sense and started posting angry jibberish about three pages ago.

Me no care what you thinks.

 

[Ravi]

A bunch of crap. Your ignorance is showing, Gunny.

It is a bunch of crap, some of those same Pitts that he had fighting have been retrained and rehabilitated, Because they are born fighters doesn't mean they must be. A lot of people really won't have any other dog.

They are no more born fighters than any other dog. People have weird and uneducated ideas about biology and what constitutes a species of animal. Dogs have been domesticated for millennia. Dogs are dogs. Dog breeding is a very new practice and has not gone on long enough to have any significant effect on the species in terms of effecting the basic nature of the animal.

I've known plenty of pit bulls that were great family pets.

Angie, while I agree this guy is a doosh you are incorrect that dog breeders don't breed for certain traits and many of them don't care that they are passing down negative ones as long as the dog fits the buyer's notion of what they want the dog to be. I think the AKC is responsible for a lot of this with their shows...breeding for beauty in many dogs unfortunately also means that beauty is all that is valued and things like hip dysplasia become more intensified in successive generations.

Ditto with breeding dogs for dog fighting. You also seem to forget that the lifespan of dogs is short enough to destroy a breed in a few short generations.

 

[manifold]

If I were Goodell, I'd be more pissed off at the fact that he lied to my face than I would be jumping on the this guy is worse than Mengele bandwagon being driven by Anguille and co-piloted by bones.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I describe it as cruelty.



Being entertained by violence isn't exactly the same thing as pathological, wanton bloodlust. Are you suggesting that fans of MMA, boxing, football or hockey all have a pathological need to satisfy a bloodlust?



Money. And the pleasure derived from gambling. I've not seen one shred of evidence supporting the notion that Vick got off on torturing the dogs.

so he merely tortured them for money?

So that makes it OK

No, but perhaps forgiveable.

there is no forgiveness for wanton cruelty.

 

[Anguille]

It is a bunch of crap, some of those same Pitts that he had fighting have been retrained and rehabilitated, Because they are born fighters doesn't mean they must be. A lot of people really won't have any other dog.

They are no more born fighters than any other dog. People have weird and uneducated ideas about biology and what constitutes a species of animal. Dogs have been domesticated for millennia. Dogs are dogs. Dog breeding is a very new practice and has not gone on long enough to have any significant effect on the species in terms of effecting the basic nature of the animal.

I've known plenty of pit bulls that were great family pets.

Angie, while I agree this guy is a doosh you are incorrect that dog breeders don't breed for certain traits and many of them don't care that they are passing down negative ones as long as the dog fits the buyer's notion of what they want the dog to be. I think the AKC is responsible for a lot of this with their shows...breeding for beauty in many dogs unfortunately also means that beauty is all that is valued and things like hip dysplasia become more intensified in successive generations.

Ditto with breeding dogs for dog fighting. You also seem to forget that the lifespan of dogs is short enough to destroy a breed in a few short generations.

A breed does not equal species, Ravi. Since most dog breeding is undocumented and can be done by anyone, there is very little evidence to support the notion that breeds are distinct controlled and determined entities. People like to see things that way, just like they think the human race is divided up in to subspecies.
I think you have read too much sensationalist journalism about pit bulls and forget that proper training and care are by far the largest determining factor in whether a dog will make a good pet or not. You can attempt to breed for specific physical characteristics but you will not always be successfull. Dogs have been man's best friend for millennia and to think that in a few short centuries you can turn them into a whole other species that preys upon humans rather than cooperates with them is a theory that has not been proved.

 

[Anguille]

If I were Goodell, I'd be more pissed off at the fact that he lied to my face than I would be jumping on the this guy is worse than Mengele bandwagon being driven by Anguille and co-piloted by bones.

Mani being mani. Bald faced lies. Ho Hum.

 

[Anguille]

so he merely tortured them for money?

So that makes it OK

No, but perhaps forgiveable.

there is no forgiveness for wanton cruelty.

Perhaps it's easier to forgive something you engage in yourself?