Major Terror Attack On The Uk

[archangel]

spilly has been brainwashed. This is his homepage; it explains everything.

http://ohyahmon.com/

the graphics were cute...see what ya mean...does explain the mentality...not sure though if silly spilly is a guy or girl or both!

 

[OCA]

spilly has been brainwashed. This is his homepage; it explains everything.

http://ohyahmon.com/

LMFAO! Hey Spilly explain to me how the election was corrupt, will ya homey?

 

[5stringJeff]

I guess you don't get the point either. Yes, terrorism is terrorism, just as war is war. But as you know, in warfare, there are nations that follow a moral code and those that do not. The IRA bombings were not nearly as horrendous or as descriminate as the Muslim terrorists. As goatboy even mentioned, they (the IRA) targeted the leaders of GB and not just innocents. Sometimes yes they targeted innocents, but not on the scale the Muslims do. That is the point and frankly, it shouldn't be one that is that hard to grasp. That is unless you are trying to be "fair" about it all which is exactly what put us in this situation in the first place.

It has nothing to do with being "fair." It's about calling a spade a spade.

al-Qaeda is a terrorist group. The IRA is a terrorist group. Different tactics, but the same strategy.

And yes, we should target al-Qaeda first (or would, if the IRA was still active), because they are a greater threat. But that doesn't make the IRA any less of a terrorist organization.

 

[rcajun90]

that's a false perception you have of me, OCA. maybe it's because i don't buy into everything you are selling? so it's easier to demonize me and call me names, say i hate america, etc???

I'm still waiting for your answer....

 

[OCA]

I'm still waiting for your answer....

Mr. Cajun you waiting for my reply? Its back about oh 7 or 8 posts.

 

[rcajun90]

Mr. Cajun you waiting for my reply? Its back about oh 7 or 8 posts.

No sorry. I meant for Mr. Spillmind to give me his solution for the worldwide Islamic terrorist movement. I will bet you he will say something like it is a police and legal matter. That's their usual response.

 

[OCA]

No sorry. I meant for Mr. Spillmind to give me his solution for the worldwide Islamic terrorist movement. I will bet you he will say something like it is a police and legal matter. That's their usual response.

Hell you won't even get that, he'll dance around it then give you something about war dead or the cost.

 

[freeandfun1]

awesome! some specifics! so this 'global' war on terror is actually soley aimed at 'preventing further attacks against US interests.' thanks for this meaningful insight. i'm sure this is what bush was pitchin in his call for aid in iraq. it sure sounds like a goal the whole world should buy into! it's really so amazing they aren't buying what you are selling. that must keep you up at night.

Bush is calling for help? Not actually. The left is saying we need help because that furthers THEIR cause - bashing Bush.

Your STUPIDITY is astounding. Bush took an oath to defend the United States not the entire world. If the world doesn't want to get onboard with us, then screw them. Bush is doing what is right whether you like it or not.

 

[freeandfun1]

and why they aren't on board must really be baffling to you.

Not baffling me one bit. Well, that isn't totally true. I am baffled at how ignorant the rest of the west seems to be about all this. They should realize that putting your head in the sand isn't going to make them stop. As I have mentioned already, we (the USA) tried that under Billy Bob and that led to 911. Unless they get onboard and start doing something, expect many more Madrids, Balis and Londons. It is only a matter of time.

 

[spillmind]

Hell you won't even get that, he'll dance around it then give you something about war dead or the cost.

you want a solution?

START HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_abdullah.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_saud.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/whos_yo_daddy.jpg

SA plays both side of the fence by funding terrorists and also being america's 'allies'.

yeah let's talk about women's rights over there!

until you get to the heart of the matter, the war on terror will never end, and you might as well watch as that cost keeps rising. http://www.costofwar.com

go on! continue down the same path. and sit in bewilderment as support for the chimp and his war dwindles to nothing. i'm sure it's pretty baffling for you guys.

 

[Bonnie]

I wonder how our new liberal 'friends' would say we should handle this one...

1) Stay out - it's not our business?
2) This is all Bush's fault!
3) If we'd just *talked* to them!

Most likely all of the above!!

 

[GotZoom]

you want a solution?

START HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_abdullah.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_saud.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/whos_yo_daddy.jpg

SA plays both side of the fence by funding terrorists and also being america's 'allies'.

yeah let's talk about women's rights over there!

until you get to the heart of the matter, the war on terror will never end, and you might as well watch as that cost keeps rising. http://www.costofwar.com

go on! continue down the same path. and sit in bewilderment as support for the chimp and his war dwindles to nothing. i'm sure it's pretty baffling for you guys.

Photos. Whoopee

Ok..I have paid $716.00 so far to protect my family, friends, and everyone else in the United States.

Some of our heros in the military have paid with their life.

For me..small price.

Next.

 

[Bonnie]

The 9/11 attacks, the USS Cole, and the bombings of embassies were planned and executed way before we ever entered either Iraq or Afghanistan.

The terrorists have killed their own Muslim people, they don't give a shit about anything but ridding the world of Western Culture.......... SPILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bonnie]

you want a solution?

START HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_abdullah.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_saud.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/whos_yo_daddy.jpg

SA plays both side of the fence by funding terrorists and also being america's 'allies'.

yeah let's talk about women's rights over there!

until you get to the heart of the matter, the war on terror will never end, and you might as well watch as that cost keeps rising. http://www.costofwar.com

go on! continue down the same path. and sit in bewilderment as support for the chimp and his war dwindles to nothing. i'm sure it's pretty baffling for you guys.

So you think Bush shouldn't pose for pictures with anyone from Saudi Arabia!! LOL

Wow that is a brilliant strategy!!! Well problem solved

Lets talk about womens rights now in Iraq as opposed to before under Saddam.......If you don't see by now that bringing Democracy to the Middle East is key to ridding the world of totalitarian regimes and terrorism then there is no hope for you at all!!!!!!!

 

[spillmind]

So you think Bush shouldn't pose for pictures with anyone from Saudi Arabia!! LOL

Wow that is a brilliant strategy!!! Well problem solved

Lets talk about womens rights now in Iraq as opposed to before under Saddam.......If you don't see by now that bringing Democracy to the Middle East is key to ridding the world of totalitarian regimes and terrorism then there is no hope for you at all!!!!!!!

sure bonnie, let's talk about it. tell us what women's rights were like in iraq before ousting saddam. i'm giving you plenty of rope here.

if you can't see that our 'allies' including our biggest 'ally' in the MA, SA isn't in favor of your democracy pitch and we can't them to comply- and not see to the real truth of the matter- then there is no hope for you, my dear.

and yes, the photos.

personally i think that anyone who condones this cozy relationship with the bush family and the saudis is spitting on all the graves of the men and women who have paid the ultimate price for what they believed they were fighting for.

 

[spillmind]

Photos. Whoopee

Ok..I have paid $716.00 so far to protect my family, friends, and everyone else in the United States.

Some of our heros in the military have paid with their life.

For me..small price.

Next.

lmao. you are embracing a false sense of security, my friend.

 

[OCA]

you want a solution?

START HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_abdullah.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_saud.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/whos_yo_daddy.jpg

SA plays both side of the fence by funding terrorists and also being america's 'allies'.

yeah let's talk about women's rights over there!

until you get to the heart of the matter, the war on terror will never end, and you might as well watch as that cost keeps rising. http://www.costofwar.com

go on! continue down the same path. and sit in bewilderment as support for the chimp and his war dwindles to nothing. i'm sure it's pretty baffling for you guys.

Yes pressure should be applied to SA but that is a drop in the bucket. And again really I asked you for a solution and you posted some pics, I thought you were educated but misguided politically, apparently i'm wrong.

 

[rcajun90]

you want a solution?

START HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_abdullah.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/bush_saud.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/spillmind/whos_yo_daddy.jpg

SA plays both side of the fence by funding terrorists and also being america's 'allies'.

yeah let's talk about women's rights over there!

until you get to the heart of the matter, the war on terror will never end, and you might as well watch as that cost keeps rising. http://www.costofwar.com

go on! continue down the same path. and sit in bewilderment as support for the chimp and his war dwindles to nothing. i'm sure it's pretty baffling for you guys.

Your hatred of Bush blinds you to any sense of reality. I know a few folks like you and they are usually very nice and intelligent people. However they fail to realize that we are facing a situation much like in WW II. We have two choices, we can fight or give in. I rather fight then grow a beard and pray to Allah five times a day. You give us no solution but simply hate for Bush. I will ask you again to re-examine your position honestly. If war isn't the answer then what is your solution? BTW the fact that the Saudi's are playing both sides of the fence isn't a news flash.

 

[GotZoom]

lmao. you are embracing a false sense of security, my friend.

How?

Simple question. Explain how I am doing that.

 

[Bonnie]

sure bonnie, let's talk about it. tell us what women's rights were like in iraq before ousting saddam. i'm giving you plenty of rope here.

During Saddam
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0211.html

Human rights in Saddam's Iraq
[Categories: Human rights, Iraq]



Documented human rights violations 1979-2003Human rights organizations have documented government approved (Putting a condemned person to death) executions, acts of (The act of torturing someone) torture, and (The crime of forcing a woman to submit to sexual intercourse against her will) rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003.

In 2002, a resolution sponsored by the European Union was adopted by the Commission for Human Rights, which stated that there had been no improvement in the human rights crisis in Iraq. The statement condemned President Saddam Hussein's government for its "systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and international humanitarian law". The resolution demanded that Iraq immediately put an end to its "summary and arbitrary executions... the use of rape as a political tool and all enforced and involuntary disappearances".

Two years earlier, two human rights organizations, the International Federation of Human Rights League and the Coalition for Justice in Iraq released a joint report, accusing the Saddam Hussein regime of committing "massive and systematic" human rights violations, particularly against women. The report spoke of public beheadings of women who were accused of being prostitutes, which took place in front of family members, including children. The heads of the victims were publicly displayed near signs reading, "For the honor of Iraq." The report documented 130 women who had been killed in this way, but stated that the actual number was probably much higher. The report also describes human rights violations directed against children. The report states that children, as young as 5 years old, are recruited into the " (Click link for more info and facts about Ashbal Saddam) Ashbal Saddam," or "Saddam's Cubs," and indoctrinated to adulate Saddam Hussein and denounce their own family members. The children are also subjected to military training, which includes cruelty to animals. The report also describes how parents of children are executed if they object to this treatment, and in some cases, the children themselves are imprisoned.


Iraqi citizens were not allowed to assemble legally unless it was to express support for the government. The Iraqi government controlled the establishment of political parties, regulates their internal affairs and monitors their activities.

Iraqi women could not travel outside of the Country without the escort of a male relative.

The activities of citizens living inside Iraq who received money from relatives abroad were closely monitored.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/H/Hu/Human_rights_in_Saddams_Iraq.htm

The movement for women in Iraq has greatly suffered due to sanctions and anti-women legislation imposed by Hussein's regime since the mid-90s. Under Islamic law, the punishment for a women who commits adultery is death. But women in Iraq are also being murdered for fighting with their husbands, having a relationship with a man outside marriage, and for being raped, because this brings shame on the family. Women have been stoned to death in public, disabled, disfigured and/or kidnapped. Women have even been kept hostage in their own homes.

According to the Iraq Foundation Web site "The rights of women in Iraq are going down the drain, along with everything else ... In 1998, Saddam ordered all women secretaries working in government agencies be dismissed. Now there are new laws barring women from work altogether."

Many women feel that once Saddam is removed from power, women's rights will return to Iraq. Recently a group of Iraqi women met in a Foreign Press Center Briefing to discuss Human Rights and Women in Iraq. Esra Naama stated "Saddam, right now, is terrorizing women, Iraqi women. He's using the excuse of infidelity. He's using the excuse of women being unfaithful to their husbands and the honor killing -- he's actually allowed honor killing to come back into society, where something that really, for a long time, was not in Iraqi society and I'm sure these ladies here can correct me if I'm wrong. But, once Saddam is gone, I believe that these are all things that will disappear from our society again."

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/iraq/a/iraqi_women.htm

After Saddam

Women's Rights in a New Iraq: The Constitution and the Future


Speaker: Manal Omar, Iraq country director, Women for Women International

Presider: Isobel Coleman, senior fellow, U.S. foreign policy, Council on Foreign Relations

Council on Foreign Relations
New York, N.Y.
May 11, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISOBEL COLEMAN: Thank you. Thank you all for coming. We're going to get started, if you could take your seats. It is with great pleasure that I introduce Manal Omar, who is bringing up here--Iraq. She's actually based in Amman, Jordan, but she is the country director for Women for Women International, which many of you, I'm sure, know of from its very telegenic leader, Zainab Salbi, who I think has the distinction of having been on Oprah four times in the last couple of years--six times! My goodness! [Laughter] So--which is all that needs to be said about her success in promoting her organization.

Women for Women International operates around the world, helping women in post-conflict situations rebuild their lives. Our focus today is on Iraq, and I think it will be very interesting to hear from Manal about what has been going on with women in Iraq. We hear lots of different things. I am in the process of writing a pretty lengthy piece on women in Iraq, and I tell you, the contradictory things I hear are staggering. So it will be very interesting to hear from someone who's spent quite a bit of time on the ground to get another perspective on what's actually happening.

Manal has an interesting background, as she said, its too complicated to even give you the lineage of where she's grown up. But let's just say it's got Saudi Arabia and Spartanburg, South Carolina in it [laughter], and she was educated in the United States, and worked for UNESCO [United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization] and various other organizations, as a journalist, too, but has been with Women for Women for a couple of years and in-country director in Iraq. So thank you for joining us here today.

MANAL OMAR: Thank you, Isobel, and the Council for Foreign Relations, for hosting this event. Right now, Iraqi women for the past two years have been going through a very important transition, not only in terms of reconstruction, but in terms of the future political process and their role as participants, as active citizens. And what's happening now is what we've been calling the moment of truth. You know, the past two years' investment in terms of time, money, and lives will come out in the culmination of the constitution. It's a crucial time for Iraqi women, because during post-conflict, there's always a window of opportunity that's open where women will be able to see it and actually, by the drafting of a new constitution and the formation of a new government, are able to improve their conditions, at least on a legal framework with a longer-term goal of bridging the legal--and the implementation.

One of the challenges with Iraq, and probably one of the reasons why we've seen so many contradictory messages coming from the ground, is the political process in Iraq, the reconstruction process, the process on the ground has been going through a roller-coaster ride of euphoria and disappointment. Initially, the euphoria began in summer 2003 with the coalition's entrance into Iraq. And you felt on the ground that there was a general welcoming from the Iraqis, feeling that there--if this was changed, this was democracy, this was freedom finally entering the country. The disappointment came after when they saw a failure of delivery of services and felt that the promises that were made were never met.

Then you had the June transition, where, you know, yet again there was a timeline. Euphoria, you know, swept through the nation because, you know, they expected so much violence, but violence didn't happen. Now it's in the hands of Iraqis, this is going to be secure, this is--you know, "We're going to prove ourselves to the world," and then the disappointment came as violence continued to increase and the country, you know, spiraled towards anarchy.

The elections: yet again, euphoria, and an overwhelming sense of it. Iraqis really felt that they took control of the process. They went out. They voted. Iraqi women on all levels, from the elite to the rural women, were out there at the polls, you know, dressing their kids in their best clothes, and it was a time of celebration. And now you're beginning to sense the disappointment due to the delay in the government. It's not there. Iraqis are still very committed to the constitution.

The idea of civil society--you know, the Iraqi groups on the ground and the remaining NGOs [nongovernmental organizations] who are on the ground--is that the constitution needs to be a social contract, that--and that's very difficult to do in a country that's lost entire faith in the system, in the government. The process is what's more important than the outcome.

One of the challenges that Iraqi women have been facing is these almost impossible deadlines. You know, there's again, the June transition, whereas we know that the reconstruction process probably needed more time; the elections--all these deadlines have put women on a race, a race against time. How can they make sure to, you know, empower women so that they're aware of the processes, particularly because the elections is a public vote and even the constitution will be a referendum on the public vote. So, they're racing against time in terms of building the grassroots, you know, building trust, building legitimacy on that level, as well as arguing for a place at the decision-making table. You know, both not easy tasks, again, with such a timeline.

With the constitution, we're seeing that that timeline is yet again being imposed. And the measure of success in Iraq has been, up until now, can we meet the timelines or not? Iraqi women and many members of civil society are beginning to argue that that--you know, we can't do that for the constitution. And the reason why it can't be done for the constitution is because the process is more important than the outcome; you know, there has to be the consensus-building.

And like I mentioned, you know, we're beginning to sense a little bit of disappointment in Iraq because of the delay of the government. But when you take a step and look back, it's actually proved that Iraqis are working towards the consensus-building process; that it wasn't one group trying to impose on the other; that, you know, the Shiites and the Kurds, the amount of time they took negotiating trying to figure out who was going to be in the TNA [Transitional National Assembly], and who would be in the ministries is a very healthy sign of dialogue. And the Iraqis deserve that time in terms of being able to make sure that they have their time to build that consensus.

Iraqi women, in particular, are beginning to organize. They're actually among the groups that are organizing on the constitution the most. There have been several workshops on the ground working on women in terms of, you know, what have they done in other post-conflict countries, what's the best approach? There are many attempts to bring--there's an almost frightening trend of polarization among the women because you have a lot of the secular women organizing and the more religious women who are taking it from a different standpoint organizing. However, they've acknowledged that, and now there's more and more attempt to bring both of them together. Again, a sign that the women are much more progressive in terms of the community and their organizations toward the constitution.

And so what needs to be done--and the Ministry of Women, for example--the old Ministry of Women, not the new one, under Narmin Othman, was calling in examples from Rwanda. A member--a new member of the transitional National Assembly had given me a call and asked, you know, "I heard that India has a really interesting marriage of civil and religious law," and you know, "can I get a copy of their constitution? I don't know how to get a copy, but if you can get me a copy." So already they're beginning to try and draw in the lessons learned.

The main challenge is, actually, as I mentioned before, the deadline. Right now there's a temptation on the government side to shortcut public participation because again, the measurable success in Iraq is: Can we have a draft [of the constitution] by August and then the referendum in October? Delaying that, for many Iraqis, is seen as a failure in the eyes of the international community, although, the TAL, the Transitional Administrative Law, does have Article 61 which allows them to delay for six months. More and more we're trying to convince the Transitional National Assembly to use Article 61 for that six-month extension, which even then is not a lot of time, in order for them to be able to at least build some public participation.

The trend that we're seeing on the ground, and the fear is that there will be--they'll succumb to that temptation and the constitution will be a closed-door process. And basically, they'll--the parties will agree, maybe, you know, similar to what happened with the National Assembly in late 2004; maybe they'll hold a 1,000-delegate meeting kind of for, you know, shadows and mirrors--smoke and mirrors type of thing, and then just pass the constitution, or, you know, just set out the draft constitution. And what we're hoping is with enough international pressure, that that can be re-worked. And the only way that will be re-worked, in my opinion, is if there is enough international and civil-society pressure to give the government an incentive to include the public, because right now, there really isn't an incentive. By including the public, it becomes more complicated, there is too much--you know, the insecurity situation is making it very difficult for the Transitional National Assembly who, under the TAL, are responsible for including the public. You know, it's a perfect, I don't want to say excuse because it's a reality, but it's a perfect reason not to go out to the public in terms of the constitution. However, it's detrimental because, you know, it is a permanent constitution that is being drafted, and as I said, it's a window of opportunity not only for women but for a lot of minority groups to secure their rights.

In terms specifically of women, one of the things that these workshops and the programs that are working on women are emphasizing is for them to determine what their non-negotiables are. During a lot of the meetings and the workshops that we've held with Iraqi women, you know, everything is discussed, from marital rate, to citizenship, to inheritance--all, you know, very important issues in terms of women, but in terms of negotiating into the constitution, will be extremely difficult, whereas other countries have often focused on having one absolute article that guarantees, you know, equal rights and liberty for all citizens, male and female. And it's very important that absolute language is used. So that's the other thing that we're bringing to the women's NGOs and the women's parliamentarians, is the type of language that was used in other countries.

An example would be in Afghanistan, at one point, in the old constitution, where it does specifically say that men--that citizens are--should be treated equal, the debate became who's a citizen. Is a woman a citizen or not? So, in terms of absolute language, it's very important that the Iraqi women are aware of the manipulation of language on a legal framework. And at the same time, with that article there, they can always challenge laws as being unconstitutional.

In fact, that's what Bahraini women did. In order to repeal the law--in 1975, there was a law where a Bahraini woman had to have her husband approve her taking out a passport--they were able to repeal it under the constitution as under that article, general article in the constitution, as it being unconstitutional. So, you know, women in the region have been able to use that in the past.

Already with the Transitional Administrative Law, that was the legal framework set up for the transition, most of the issues that Iraqi women have identified--that being inheritance, the right for a woman to pass on her citizenship to her child if she's married to a foreigner, as well as divorce and marriage laws--were not addressed. And that's exactly the reason why Resolution 137, which is the resolution calling for sharia [official Islamic law] in December 2003, was voted down, was--these were laws that were important to women. But the TAL, in order to avoid the controversy, didn't address these issues.

According to Article 7 in the TAL, it says that any law that contradicts Islamic teachings will be null and void. It's not the exact terminology, but that's the primary message with Article 7 in the TAL. Again, a very, you know--in theory, it's a very a nice sentence that's, you know, respectful of culture and religion. But on the ground, you know, you're calling for a lot of, you know, tricky issues in the courts. If the--if this--you know, if this was to translate into the permanent constitution, you know, what does that mean? Whose interpretation? You know, right now, the Iraqi law calls for the first, you know--for marriage age to be 16. You know, someone can say, "Well, that's contradictory to Islamic teachings. I want to marry a 9-year-old." And so this language that was even in the TAL, which was drafted by the committee that was appointed by the coalition--even there, there still lies danger in terms of women. So that's another important thing that Iraqi women are already beginning to look for, is, you know, how can we make sure that the appropriate language is available to us, that we will be able to recommend to the constitutional committee once it's formed?

The other important thing is, in terms of the absolute language, is making sure that the constitution sets up a separate, independent judicial system. It's--you know, I think both the judicial system and the press laws are going to be an important component of the checks and balances and for--you know, particularly for women. We've seen a lot of progress in the region, and in the Islamic countries in general, being taken through the judicial system, actually hand in hand with the press. When something happens, you know, women who have developed a strong relationship with local press are able to get it taken out to the public and then they take it through the judicial system.

more
http://www.cfr.org/pub8114/manal_om..._new_iraq_the_constitution_and_the_future.php