Lyn Cheney takes on left wing over waterboarding & WINS!

[oreo]

Lynn Cheney--takes on Good Morning American & Anderson Cooper over waterboarding & WINS!

I couldn't believe it--when I heard it. During interviews on these programs--she was literally surrounded by left wing reporters--asking her why Dick Cheney stated yesterday that waterboarding the mastermind of the 9/11 attack was LEGAL. Which is what he said.

She immediately cut them off--& stated did you hear new attorney general Eric Holder responses to questions from the senate last week regarding waterboarding?

Two senators stated that we train our navy seals for interrogation & use waterboarding on them. The question was asked: Mr. Holder--are you suggesting that we are torturing our soldiers? Then discussion came up under the law regarding torture--that torture is defined as "intent to HARM to the individual". Eric Holder did not know how to respond to this. They had him so twisted up in knots--it was hillarious.

Lynn Cheney stopped the left wing--RIGHT IN IT'S TRACKS.

 

[WillowTree]

Lynn Cheney--takes on Good Morning American & Anderson Cooper over waterboarding & WINS!

I couldn't believe it--when I heard it. During interviews on these programs--she was literally surrounded by left wing reporters--asking her why Dick Cheney stated yesterday that waterboarding the mastermind of the 9/11 attack was LEGAL. Which is what he said.

She immediately cut them off--& stated did you hear new attorney general Eric Holder responses to questions from the senate last week regarding waterboarding?

Two senators stated that we train our navy seals for interrogation & use waterboarding on them. The question was asked: Mr. Holder--are you suggesting that we are torturing our soldiers? Then discussion came up under the law regarding torture--that torture is defined as "intent to HARM to the individual". Eric Holder did not know how to respond to this. They had him so twisted up in knots.

Liz Cheney stopped the left wing--RIGHT IN IT'S TRACKS.

I'm sure the rats just went underground to get their picks and shovels,, Lyn Cheney will be the new target for this month!

 

[WillowTree]

I watched that pissant keith olberman last night,, I thought he was going to choke on his spittle! vewy amusing!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It seems she only won the debate because her opponents were unwilling to assert that yes we have water-boarded, and therefore tortured, our own soldiers.

 

[Pyrite]

It's too bad she was apparently fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

see, I would have said: "Yes, we are torturing our soldiers to prepare them for the possibility that they might be captured and illegally tortured by our enemies. Why do you think the SEER program was developed, to experiment with breathing exercises?"

 

[Yurt]

if torture is illegal, and you claim we are torturing out soldiers, is that not illegal?

 

[Tech_Esq]

It's too bad she was apparently fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

see, I would have said: "Yes, we are torturing our soldiers to prepare them for the possibility that they might be captured and illegally tortured by our enemies. Why do you think the SEER program was developed, to experiment with breathing exercises?"

Stupid argument. We don't shoot soldiers to prepare them for the battlefield which is tantamount to your argument. If it were torture, we wouldn't do it to our soldiers. The only torturing going on here is you torturing logic to arrive at the outcome you desire.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I made the same point Lynn did. But, she is an extremely smart and quick individual and more than a match for any of the knuckleheads on TV.

 

[Pyrite]

It's too bad she was apparently fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

see, I would have said: "Yes, we are torturing our soldiers to prepare them for the possibility that they might be captured and illegally tortured by our enemies. Why do you think the SEER program was developed, to experiment with breathing exercises?"

Stupid argument. We don't shoot soldiers to prepare them for the battlefield which is tantamount to your argument. If it were torture, we wouldn't do it to our soldiers. The only torturing going on here is you torturing logic to arrive at the outcome you desire.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I made the same point Lynn did. But, she is an extreme smart and quick individual and more than a match for any of the knucklehead on TV.

So, what was the SEER program for, then? perhaps we were helping our soldiers learn to swim?

 

[Tech_Esq]

It's too bad she was apparently fighting an unarmed opponent in a battle of wits.

see, I would have said: "Yes, we are torturing our soldiers to prepare them for the possibility that they might be captured and illegally tortured by our enemies. Why do you think the SEER program was developed, to experiment with breathing exercises?"

Stupid argument. We don't shoot soldiers to prepare them for the battlefield which is tantamount to your argument. If it were torture, we wouldn't do it to our soldiers. The only torturing going on here is you torturing logic to arrive at the outcome you desire.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I made the same point Lynn did. But, she is an extreme smart and quick individual and more than a match for any of the knucklehead on TV.

So, what was the SEER program for, then? perhaps we were helping our soldiers learn to swim?

SEER is just what it says.

Survival
Escape
Evasion
Resistance

SEER training is for many reasons and in different focus areas. It is taken by pilots, in case they are required to eject over enemy territory. It's used by combat arms personnel as they are the ones most likely to find themselves on the wrong side of the FEBA. On and on.

It gives you a doctor's degree in the Code of Conduct. It gives you passing familiarity with elements of the Ranger Handbook especially in the Survival and Evasion areas. It is the obligation of every soldier (or whichever service) to attempt to escape if captured. SEER training introduces some tools to accomplish this. Resistance provides a real world patina to the Code of Conduct's requirements limit the intelligence gathering of the enemy. The old name, rank and serial number is no longer the limitation, but that doesn't mean you go blabbing everything you know either. Nor does it mean you give what you know up without a fight. Resistance training provides tools for the soldier to use to slow enemy efforts to obtain information from you.

For instance, before my dad went to Vietnam, they had a forerunner to SEER. One of the TO&E pieces of equipment that commonly went to the field with US troops was the TA-312 field telephone. It had a crank which produced an electrical charge and caused a distant phone to ring. During his training the wires were connected to various parts of the body and the crank turned. The electrical voltage was about 3.5 volts. Uncomfortable, but not damaging.

During my service the same phone was in service as well as the TA-1. It was another field telephone but it produced 7 volts of electricity. We were told this could not be used to induce cooperation during questioning.

In other words, there is more than just waterboarding that occurs in SEER training.

 

[Pyrite]

SEER is just what it says.

Survival
Escape
Evasion
Resistance

SEER training is for many reasons and in different focus areas. It is taken by pilots, in case they are required to eject over enemy territory. It's used by combat arms personnel as they are the ones most likely to find themselves on the wrong side of the FEBA. On and on.

It gives you a doctor's degree in the Code of Conduct. It gives you passing familiarity with elements of the Ranger Handbook especially in the Survival and Evasion areas. It is the obligation of every soldier (or whichever service) to attempt to escape if captured. SEER training introduces some tools to accomplish this. Resistance provides a real world patina to the Code of Conduct's requirements limit the intelligence gathering of the enemy. The old name, rank and serial number is no longer the limitation, but that doesn't mean you go blabbing everything you know either. Nor does it mean you give what you know up without a fight. Resistance training provides tools for the soldier to use to slow enemy efforts to obtain information from you.

For instance, before my dad went to Vietnam, they had a forerunner to SEER. One of the TO&E pieces of equipment that commonly went to the field with US troops was the TA-312 field telephone. It had a crank which produced an electrical charge and caused a distant phone to ring. During his training the wires were connected to various parts of the body and the crank turned. The electrical voltage was about 3.5 volts. Uncomfortable, but not damaging.

During my service the same phone was in service as well as the TA-1. It was another field telephone but it produced 7 volts of electricity. We were told this could not be used to induce cooperation during questioning.

In other words, there is more than just waterboarding that occurs in SEER training.

Well, yes, and I didn't mean to oversimplify it, but the waterboarding and similar things, the whole point of them, was to prepare special forces guys for the possibility that they might be tortured.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Preparation and training in a controlled environment, with EVERY ONE THERE A FULL VOLUNTEER is much different than what happened in GITMO.

By the way, check this out.......if Kalied Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 time in a month, that equates to 6 times per day, and 24 (number of hours) divided by 6, is 4, which means that every 4 hours, he was waterboarded.

You know......you can't really get any good sleep being woken up every 4 hours, which means that they were also using sleep deprivation.

And.......I think that being waterboarded 1 or 2 times (as a volunteer), is much different than being waterboarded 6 times a day for a month as a prisoner of war.

 

[ABikerSailor]

And how can we possibly get "good intelligence" out of something that was created for FALSE CONFESSIONS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

And.......you do realize that sleep deprivation tends to make you hallucinate after a week or so, right?

So, how does this provide good intel again? Oh yeah.......that's right, the idiots who are for it have never served.

 

[Tech_Esq]

SEER is just what it says.

Survival
Escape
Evasion
Resistance

SEER training is for many reasons and in different focus areas. It is taken by pilots, in case they are required to eject over enemy territory. It's used by combat arms personnel as they are the ones most likely to find themselves on the wrong side of the FEBA. On and on.

It gives you a doctor's degree in the Code of Conduct. It gives you passing familiarity with elements of the Ranger Handbook especially in the Survival and Evasion areas. It is the obligation of every soldier (or whichever service) to attempt to escape if captured. SEER training introduces some tools to accomplish this. Resistance provides a real world patina to the Code of Conduct's requirements limit the intelligence gathering of the enemy. The old name, rank and serial number is no longer the limitation, but that doesn't mean you go blabbing everything you know either. Nor does it mean you give what you know up without a fight. Resistance training provides tools for the soldier to use to slow enemy efforts to obtain information from you.

For instance, before my dad went to Vietnam, they had a forerunner to SEER. One of the TO&E pieces of equipment that commonly went to the field with US troops was the TA-312 field telephone. It had a crank which produced an electrical charge and caused a distant phone to ring. During his training the wires were connected to various parts of the body and the crank turned. The electrical voltage was about 3.5 volts. Uncomfortable, but not damaging.

During my service the same phone was in service as well as the TA-1. It was another field telephone but it produced 7 volts of electricity. We were told this could not be used to induce cooperation during questioning.

In other words, there is more than just waterboarding that occurs in SEER training.

Well, yes, and I didn't mean to oversimplify it, but the waterboarding and similar things, the whole point of them, was to prepare special forces guys for the possibility that they might be tortured.

I'm not sure why you keep saying Special Forces. The SF is not the only ones that get SERE training. All branches use SERE training. Here is an excerpt from the Marine SERE training web site:

The last phase of the course is four days long and the Marines are broken into teams of four to five men. The teams must stay on the move through the muddy and tangled jungle to avoid being captured by students from the man-tracking course.

"We've built our own POW (prisoner of war) camp where we stick the students if they are captured," Thomas said. "They're forced to wear the POW uniforms we made and the instructors interrogate and attempt to pry information from them to test their resistance level. We set them loose after several hours so they don't spend the entire evasion period in the POW camp."

During their time in the POW camp, Marines are subjected to forced labor such as digging trenches, filling sandbags and cutting wood. They are also put in a small three-foot squared cube-like cell where they are tempted with food to give up information.

I'll amend your statement, the whole point was not that they may be tortured, it is to learn about individual tools they can use to RESIST when interrogated. Nobody expect the whole name, rank and serial number bit, but you are a warrior and expected to act like one within your limits to do so. SERE training increases your limits by providing you familiarity with the experience. This deprives the enemy of disorienting surprise when similar tools are used.

Since I have referred to it several times, here is the Military Code of Conduct in full:

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way
of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never
surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to
resist.

If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will
make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither
parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners.
I will give no information or take part in any action which might be
harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will
obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, and will back them up in
every way.

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give
only my name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering
further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or
written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to
their cause.

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom,
responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my
country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

 

[Tech_Esq]

And how can we possibly get "good intelligence" out of something that was created for FALSE CONFESSIONS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

And.......you do realize that sleep deprivation tends to make you hallucinate after a week or so, right?

So, how does this provide good intel again? Oh yeah.......that's right, the idiots who are for it have never served.

I'm willing to bet that not every last thing he said during his 183 turns in the waterboard were false. How about you?

I was in the mud, where were you?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Sailor, usually sitting off the coast of some far off country, getting shot at in places like Beriut in 83, Desert Storm pts 1 and 2, and Kosovo.

Yeah.....he may have admitted to some true things, but they would be the things that they'd gotten out of him BEFORE he was waterboarded.

Shit......the CIA even said so. So did that agent who was there.

 

[roomy]

I liked him in those old werewolf movies but I thought he was dead by now?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Sailor, usually sitting off the coast of some far off country, getting shot at in places like Beriut in 83, Desert Storm pts 1 and 2, and Kosovo.

Yeah.....he may have admitted to some true things, but they would be the things that they'd gotten out of him BEFORE he was waterboarded.

Shit......the CIA even said so. So did that agent who was there.

My position on waterboarding is that it should be used as a last resort after all other means of interrogation have failed or reached an impasse. I do not support getting to a "dead end" with a prisoner.

I understand that it is difficult to discern truth from fiction when answers are being provided in this manner, but it is not impossible for trained interrogators to do this task. If the choice is nothing, or sift through the scraps, well nobody ever promised you a rose garden. Start sifting.

As between some short period (no matter how repeated) of discomfort and the loss of one life, it's no contest. Get that nose prepared to receive some water.

One final point, if ole Khelid went through this 183 times, it can't be too fucking terrifying. Otherwise, he would have started blabbing his fool head off long before they ever got to 50.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I liked him in those old werewolf movies but I thought he was dead by now?

You might be thinking of Lon.....

 

[ABikerSailor]

Sailor, usually sitting off the coast of some far off country, getting shot at in places like Beriut in 83, Desert Storm pts 1 and 2, and Kosovo.

Yeah.....he may have admitted to some true things, but they would be the things that they'd gotten out of him BEFORE he was waterboarded.

Shit......the CIA even said so. So did that agent who was there.

My position on waterboarding is that it should be used as a last resort after all other means of interrogation have failed or reached an impasse. I do not support getting to a "dead end" with a prisoner.

I understand that it is difficult to discern truth from fiction when answers are being provided in this manner, but it is not impossible for trained interrogators to do this task. If the choice is nothing, or sift through the scraps, well nobody ever promised you a rose garden. Start sifting.

As between some short period (no matter how repeated) of discomfort and the loss of one life, it's no contest. Get that nose prepared to receive some water.

One final point, if ole Khelid went through this 183 times, it can't be too fucking terrifying. Otherwise, he would have started blabbing his fool head off long before they ever got to 50.

Not really. Remember........they have a completely different culture than ours, and believe it is "manly" to stand up to the Westerners.

By the way.........saw a news article a couple of years back..........It seems that there was a Marine running around, handing out dinar and shekels to all the townspeople. He also took candy for the kids, as well as got the rest of his unit to do the same. They also bought locally.

Know what he called the money? "Paper bullets", meaning that you can get more (and better) information with a little compassion, rather than the shit that Bush Jr. and Cheney threw out.

By the way, personally, I'd like to see those two, RumsFAILED and a couple others thrown into Spandau. We could try them at the Hague.

Oh yeah..........as far as what to do with the terrorists? Well........there's a lot of room there, so they could go as well. Lock Cheney and Bush up with the terrorists. Why? Simple........the atrocities that have been done by 44's admin, as well as what the Taliban have done, well...........that qualifies them for crimes against humanity, and they've affected the whole world.

After all.......it's what they did to the Nazis.

And......just a couple of weeks ago, when the shit hit the fan on this issue, I heard SEVERAL Generals (most were 2-3 star), who stated that you can get more out of someone with a smoke and some chow, as well as a medic, than you can get from any amount of waterboarding.

Oh yeah.........it will be a hell of a lot more accurate as well. Take care of someone's needs (medical, chow), provide them with a place to feel safe, and then ask what is going on and offer to help them.

Most people will take that deal.

Besides........Pol Pot invented waterboarding as a way to get false confessions in North Korea.

How is it possible that it's accurate again? Much easier to leave the gate open and shoot 'em as they try to escape.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Sailor, usually sitting off the coast of some far off country, getting shot at in places like Beriut in 83, Desert Storm pts 1 and 2, and Kosovo.

Yeah.....he may have admitted to some true things, but they would be the things that they'd gotten out of him BEFORE he was waterboarded.

Shit......the CIA even said so. So did that agent who was there.

My position on waterboarding is that it should be used as a last resort after all other means of interrogation have failed or reached an impasse. I do not support getting to a "dead end" with a prisoner.

I understand that it is difficult to discern truth from fiction when answers are being provided in this manner, but it is not impossible for trained interrogators to do this task. If the choice is nothing, or sift through the scraps, well nobody ever promised you a rose garden. Start sifting.

As between some short period (no matter how repeated) of discomfort and the loss of one life, it's no contest. Get that nose prepared to receive some water.

One final point, if ole Khelid went through this 183 times, it can't be too fucking terrifying. Otherwise, he would have started blabbing his fool head off long before they ever got to 50.

Not really. Remember........they have a completely different culture than ours, and believe it is "manly" to stand up to the Westerners.

By the way.........saw a news article a couple of years back..........It seems that there was a Marine running around, handing out dinar and shekels to all the townspeople. He also took candy for the kids, as well as got the rest of his unit to do the same. They also bought locally.

Know what he called the money? "Paper bullets", meaning that you can get more (and better) information with a little compassion, rather than the shit that Bush Jr. and Cheney threw out.

By the way, personally, I'd like to see those two, RumsFAILED and a couple others thrown into Spandau. We could try them at the Hague.

Oh yeah..........as far as what to do with the terrorists? Well........there's a lot of room there, so they could go as well. Lock Cheney and Bush up with the terrorists. Why? Simple........the atrocities that have been done by 44's admin, as well as what the Taliban have done, well...........that qualifies them for crimes against humanity, and they've affected the whole world.

After all.......it's what they did to the Nazis.

And......just a couple of weeks ago, when the shit hit the fan on this issue, I heard SEVERAL Generals (most were 2-3 star), who stated that you can get more out of someone with a smoke and some chow, as well as a medic, than you can get from any amount of waterboarding.

Oh yeah.........it will be a hell of a lot more accurate as well. Take care of someone's needs (medical, chow), provide them with a place to feel safe, and then ask what is going on and offer to help them.

Most people will take that deal.

Besides........Pol Pot invented waterboarding as a way to get false confessions in North Korea.

How is it possible that it's accurate again? Much easier to leave the gate open and shoot 'em as they try to escape.

Of course none of that responds to what I said in my post. I said waterboarding should be used as a last resort after all other methods have failed. If you can develop repore or bribe them or take away annoyances and get them to talk, fine. This isn't about retribution, it's about intel. But, if you've pulled everything out of your bag o'tricks and you still can't get the info....it's time to bring out the big guns.

Pol Pot didn't invent waterboarding. He may have used it, but it's older than him. Also, be careful when you start throwing the label, "waterboarding" on things that were done other places. Especially in the Orient. They used several different things that have been referred to as waterboarding but have almost nothing to do with what we were doing to HVTs.

One was the Japanese would shove a hose down someones throat and fill their belly with water. Then they would place a board across the engorged belly and two Japanese would use it as a see-saw. The person was questioned until they died, usually of a ruptured stomach. Now that's torture.