Logic vs American Leftism in American Politics

[Oddball]

The problem ain't the Constitution. The problem is the attack on the Constitution. We are hanging on by a thread while the democrat party attacks the 1st and the 2nd and maybe the 5th Amendments and the Supreme Court. The Constitution is all we have left.

The Constitution has been under attack for over a century, with no significant pushback from republicans....In fact, they've jumped on the wagon when it suited the exigency of the moment.

The Fed, income tax, 17th Amendment, Wilson's warfare state, FDR's welfare state, papering over JFK's murder, LBJ's Medicare, Nixon's OSHA, EPA, and ending of the gold standard, Dubya's DHS, TSA, and Patriot Act, Ovomitcare....Both parties have shit all over the founding precepts.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Logic: Government serves best when it limits itself to its stated constitutional responsibilities and enacts no more rules and regulations than necessary to allow the various states to function as one cohesive country and to prevent the various states and multi-state entities from doing economic or physical violence to each other.

I appreciate the topic focused discussion.

To be clear.....

The "government" you are referencing is the federal government.

I am not sure I agree with you on your argument......states should function as independent entities (within their scope which is broad) and don't have to be cohesive except that they support the federal government and it's intended functions (one of which is to prevent the states from fighting as you described).

However, the federal government is never going to "limit itself". It is limited or constrained by the Constitution. It has always attempted to broaden it's reach and I sure don't see them doing anything to "limit themselves". Thank the Lord for the current SCOTUS.

We The People need to be more connected with each other on this topic. I don't see the RNC talking about Federalism or the 10th Amendment (which should be at the core of our platforms). They are, IME, worthless.

Leftism: Those who oppose government want to do away with all government services or something equally silly.

Leftism is using the government to do everything. Healthcare. School, you name it.....and we are talking Federal Government.

I think if you read my post again you will see that I did not say government and big business are at odds with each other. In fact I say the truth is closer to they are in bed with each other. I am not opposed to big business since so much of it makes small business possible. But I am opposed to unnecessary rules and regulations that advantage big business while seriously disadvantaging its smaller competitors.

Yes they are in bed with each other. And I m opposed to them because the do create huge barriers to entry. When wa the last time you saw a new insurance provider come onto the scene ? As for making small business possible, I am not sure I agree with that in it's entirety. In today's world, small business can compete if they do the right things. However, big business (which is often less efficient) compensates for it's weaknesses with lots of money and political favors.

Lapland/Scandinavian countries are not socialist but capitalist countries with some socialist features. And the largest has a population of a little over 10 million, about the same as Michigan. Denmark has a population smaller than 19 U.S. states. To compare those to the USA is like comparing Muleshoe, TX to New York City. What is appropriate for one is mostly in no way feasible for the other.

You are correct. They have smaller populations. If Sweden can have socialized health care and do it well, why can't Michigan or Colorado. Why do we need a law written for 330,000,000 people to govern our health care ? We don't. States can try the experiment (like Mass famously did) and see what they come up with. I don't wan't our federal government doing anything and I am not suggesting it do what Sweden does. But Wisconsin (closer in population to Finland) can.

But the U.S. states are free to implement as many socialist programs as they want to. It is just unconstitutional for the federal government to do so.

On this point, we 100% agree. It's just too bad we (the GOP) don't teach that or behave that way at the federal level.

 

[whitehall]

The Constitution has been under attack for over a century, with no significant pushback from republicans....In fact, they've jumped on the wagon when it suited the exigency of the moment.

The Fed, income tax, 17th Amendment, Wilson's warfare state, FDR's welfare state, papering over JFK's murder, LBJ's Medicare, Nixon's OSHA, EPA, and ending of the gold standard, Dubya's DHS, TSA, and Patriot Act, Ovomitcare....Both parties have shit all over the founding pr

The Constitution is based on the Founding Fathers creation of a system of government by the people never before seen in human history. The Founding Fathers thought information was so important to a free Country that they addressed it in the 1st Amendment. The F.F. never envisioned a time when the media would unite in an effort to promote political power for one party regardless of it's impact on the future of the Republic.. That's where we are today.

 

[HikerGuy83]

The Constitution has been under attack for over a century, with no significant pushback from republicans....In fact, they've jumped on the wagon when it suited the exigency of the moment.

Amen.

Who is leading this call ?

 

[HikerGuy83]

The Constitution is based on the Founding Fathers creation of a system of government by the people never before seen in human history. The Founding Fathers thought information was so important to a free Country that they addressed it in the 1st Amendment. The F.F. never envisioned a time when the media would unite in an effort to promote political power for one party regardless of it's impact on the future of the Republic.. That's where we are today.

John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”.

And really, no government can adequately constrain people who don't have moral standards.

That is where the U.S. is headed.

 

[Oddball]

The Constitution is based on the Founding Fathers creation of a system of government by the people never before seen in human history. The Founding Fathers thought information was so important to a free Country that they addressed it in the 1st Amendment. The F.F. never envisioned a time when the media would unite in an effort to promote political power for one party regardless of it's impact on the future of the Republic.. That's where we are today.

Uh-huh....And it is only mocking paid any fealty to today.

 

[Foxfyre]

I appreciate the topic focused discussion.

To be clear.....

The "government" you are referencing is the federal government.

I am not sure I agree with you on your argument......states should function as independent entities (within their scope which is broad) and don't have to be cohesive except that they support the federal government and it's intended functions (one of which is to prevent the states from fighting as you described).

However, the federal government is never going to "limit itself". It is limited or constrained by the Constitution. It has always attempted to broaden it's reach and I sure don't see them doing anything to "limit themselves". Thank the Lord for the current SCOTUS.

We The People need to be more connected with each other on this topic. I don't see the RNC talking about Federalism or the 10th Amendment (which should be at the core of our platforms). They are, IME, worthless.



Leftism is using the government to do everything. Healthcare. School, you name it.....and we are talking Federal Government.


Yes they are in bed with each other. And I m opposed to them because the do create huge barriers to entry. When wa the last time you saw a new insurance provider come onto the scene ? As for making small business possible, I am not sure I agree with that in it's entirety. In today's world, small business can compete if they do the right things. However, big business (which is often less efficient) compensates for it's weaknesses with lots of money and political favors.



You are correct. They have smaller populations. If Sweden can have socialized health care and do it well, why can't Michigan or Colorado. Why do we need a law written for 330,000,000 people to govern our health care ? We don't. States can try the experiment (like Mass famously did) and see what they come up with. I don't wan't our federal government doing anything and I am not suggesting it do what Sweden does. But Wisconsin (closer in population to Finland) can.


On this point, we 100% agree. It's just too bad we (the GOP) don't teach that or behave that way at the federal level.

I am frustrated with the GOP too which is why I no longer consider myself a Republican but an Independent. But the GOP is NOT worthless. They can do only so much when there is a Senate and a President who will fight them and oppose them and block them as much as they possibly dare. I listen to them and am pretty good at sorting out the political spin from the things they actually mean and there are some very good people in the Party.

And the truth is they're all we've got. If we do not put President Trump back in the White House, Biden or whoever the Democrats put in there will be just as destructive even without the help of Congress. It will be the same deep state operatives calling the shots whoever they are. If we put President Trump back in the White House he will do good things but he will be as severely handicapped as he was the last two years with a Democrat Congress to deal with and who fought him in everything he wanted to do.

A Republican President and a strong Republican Congress is the only hope we have to stop them. And they have to have the support of the people enough to get some iron clad legislation in there that the neoMarxist leftists cannot easily undo. And yes the Republicans will disappoint us again here and there and we'll be ranting and raving at them, but they'll do some good stuff under Trump's leadership too.

If we don't give them that chance, it is likely the leftists will solidify their power for the rest of our lifetime and the American we have known and love will be essentially over.

 

[HikerGuy83]

And the truth is they're all we've got.

It's unfortunate but true.

I don't like Trump and I've already expressed my thoughts about how MAGA is nothing but hot air (Trump never mentioned the deficit in the debate....he should have bludgeoned Biden with it).

But I will be voting for him.

I will draw you attention to AZ House District 8 where Blake Masters (who was the loser to Mark Kelly in a senate race) is savaging Abe Hamadeh (who lost the state AG race by 250 votes) and Hamadeh is fighting back.

BOTH endorsed by Trump and yet, we put up with this kind in-fighting.

It is damaging and unecessary.

Yes, it's all we have, but it still sucks.

 

[HikerGuy83]

If we don't give them that chance, it is likely the leftists will solidify their power for the rest of our lifetime and the American we have known and love will be essentially over.

In large part we are turning our back on diety and we are losing his blessings as we continue to offend his law.

That is what will kill America. He loves all of his children, but eternal principles and laws allow him to bless those who are devoted to him. They also prevent him from protecting those who turn their backs on him. He still loves them, but actions have consequences.

 

[Foxfyre]

In large part we are turning our back on diety and we are losing his blessings as we continue to offend his law.

That is what will kill America. He loves all of his children, but eternal principles and laws allow him to bless those who are devoted to him. They also prevent him from protecting those who turn their backs on him. He still loves them, but actions have consequences.

The Republican Party is in fact the one most likely to restore religious liberties to the people that government has eroded over a number of decades now. What is causing most of it is leftists infiltrating mainstream Christian denominations and gradually turning them 'woke' which pretty much kills spirituality and faith in that congregation and it becomes just another SJW institution. But I am pretty sure that is why attendance is declining rapidly in those churches. I don't know if the Jewish communities are experiencing the same phenomenon. I don't think they would try it with the Muslims though but their numbers are still too small to be a significant factor.

 

[HikerGuy83]

The Republican Party is in fact the one most likely to restore religious liberties to the people that government has eroded over a number of decades now.

The party is a collection of people. I don't know that I see republicans as being any more devoted than centrist democrats. We can't wait for "them" to do it. We have to do it at the grassroots level.....if the grassroots really believes in Diety.

What is causing most of it is leftists infiltrating mainstream Christian denominations and gradually turning them 'woke' which pretty much kills spirituality and faith in that congregation and it becomes just another SJW institution.

Seems like you are willing to excuse republicans and blame the left. I don't agree.

But I am pretty sure that is why attendance is declining rapidly in those churches.

That is people in general. It's not limited to just one class.

 

[Foxfyre]

The party is a collection of people. I don't know that I see republicans as being any more devoted than centrist democrats. We can't wait for "them" to do it. We have to do it at the grassroots level.....if the grassroots really believes in Diety.


Seems like you are willing to excuse republicans and blame the left. I don't agree.



That is people in general. It's not limited to just one class.

I'm sorry but I don't respond or really even read chopped up posts as it often destroys context and confuses the point made. And its boring as hell to read, at least to me.

All I will respond is that among millions of people there may be an outlier now and then, but the HUGE majority of Republicans are not woke. The GOP has its faults, but that isn't one of them. People who are 'woke' and pushing that agenda however fuzzy it might be do not as a rule register Republican.

 

[CowboyTed]

That's what made Trump so different. He didn't make the Bush Republicans (Deep State) happy at all. It's funny how Democrats and some Republicans hate Trump because he didn't play the same games.

Really want to join the Deep State...

Can you tell me how...

Do you know how stupid you sound when you say there is a secret Deep State with millions of members and there isn't a shread of evidence...

 

[TNHarley]

Where is your proof? Show me the Republicans that are for communism, socialism, gender equality, higher taxes, more regulations...

Regulations? How about flowers and peoples bodies?
Socialism? How about trillions being doled out under the trump administration for simply existing? all added to the debt.
Yall arent for higher taxes, thats for sure. Yall hate to pay for your big govt bullshit yall try to shove down everyones throats.

 

[HikerGuy83]

All I will respond is that among millions of people there may be an outlier now and then, but the HUGE majority of Republicans are not woke.

My comments are about republicans in office at the federal level. I think everything I've said supports my assertion that the RNC is worthless. And our federal republicans (most of them) are not very useful in supporting true principles.

Republicans at the grassroots level run quite a spectrum. Republicans from New England would likely not be seen as anything but RINOs by the hard core right in the west. That's fine. They have their individual states and what they do is their business.

The GOP at the federal level is self-destructive. They can't seem to get their message together and they don't respond to information that tells them that they might want to consider how the accommodate more people without compromising.

I don't see the federal (or many other) GOPers pushing federalism. They rarely talk about it.

But that isn't criticism as much as it is an acknowledgement of reality. We have a long long way to go.

 

[westwall]

Yet he still governed as a 1980s democrat would have.

Because that was the best he was able to do thanks to the systemic corruption.

 

[Oddball]

Because that was the best he was able to do thanks to the systemic corruption.

Not really....Those were his actual actions.

Not that a 1980s democrat is as catastrophic as the neo-fascists running the Demoncrat Party today....Let's just disabuse any delusions that Trump is right wing, let alone "far right".

 

[westwall]

Not really....Those were his actual actions.

Not that a 1980s democrat is as catastrophic as the neo-fascists running the Demoncrat Party today....Let's just disabuse any delusions that Trump is right wing, let alone "far right".

Oh I know he isn't a conservative. There's no doubt about that, but the Congress and senate are so corrupt they basically control everything through the bureaucracy. Trump had very little real power to reign that crap in.

Now he knows the system better so I have hopes he will be able to do more.

 

[Foxfyre]

My comments are about republicans in office at the federal level. I think everything I've said supports my assertion that the RNC is worthless. And our federal republicans (most of them) are not very useful in supporting true principles.

Republicans at the grassroots level run quite a spectrum. Republicans from New England would likely not be seen as anything but RINOs by the hard core right in the west. That's fine. They have their individual states and what they do is their business.

The GOP at the federal level is self-destructive. They can't seem to get their message together and they don't respond to information that tells them that they might want to consider how the accommodate more people without compromising.

I don't see the federal (or many other) GOPers pushing federalism. They rarely talk about it.

But that isn't criticism as much as it is an acknowledgement of reality. We have a long long way to go.

The Republicans are flawed human beings as ALL human beings are. But they will promote positive and helpful and worthy legislation 100% more often than will the Democrats. And they will work a lot harder at doing no harm. There really is no other choice in this election than between totalitarianism/destruction of what America was intended to be and an imperfect Congress in which the majority loves what American was intended to be and will do a whole lot more to protect that.

 

[Cougarbear]

Really want to join the Deep State...

Can you tell me how...

Do you know how stupid you sound when you say there is a secret Deep State with millions of members and there isn't a shread of evidence...

They know who they are. Easy to spot. Never Trumpers are automatically deep state. Or, deep snakes.