Lifestyle-Marriage Equality Slugout: State Authority vs Federal?

[danielpalos]

Children aren't possessions and non-entities in the marriage conversation. They have rights. The most suppressed (and therefore the most important) rights of anyone party to the marriage contract. Again, have you never been to a family law court?

Parents have greater rights over their children because they are responsible for them.

 

[danielpalos]

There is no Appeal to Ignorance of the law as enumerated in Article 4, Section 2 upon appeal to the general government and that Body of laws. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

And how does that relate to to gay marriage?

Thank you for ceding the argument and the point you couldn't seem to come up with.

What argument? You've never once said anything about gay marriage.

Dude, is Article 4, Section 2 really that complicated for you as it relates to this thread?

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

 

[Syriusly]

There is no Appeal to Ignorance of the law as enumerated in Article 4, Section 2 upon appeal to the general government and that Body of laws. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

And how does that relate to to gay marriage?

Thank you for ceding the argument and the point you couldn't seem to come up with.

What argument? You've never once said anything about gay marriage.

Dude, is Article 4, Section 2 really that complicated for you as it relates to this thread?

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

Connect the dots.

Include the word 'gay marriage' in your post.

 

[danielpalos]

There is no Appeal to Ignorance of the law as enumerated in Article 4, Section 2 upon appeal to the general government and that Body of laws. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

And how does that relate to to gay marriage?

Thank you for ceding the argument and the point you couldn't seem to come up with.

What argument? You've never once said anything about gay marriage.

Dude, is Article 4, Section 2 really that complicated for you as it relates to this thread?

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

Connect the dots.

Include the word 'gay marriage' in your post.

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states. ... Means that gender based laws are invalid, upon appeal to that body of laws.

 

[Skylar]

There is no Appeal to Ignorance of the law as enumerated in Article 4, Section 2 upon appeal to the general government and that Body of laws. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

And how does that relate to to gay marriage?

Thank you for ceding the argument and the point you couldn't seem to come up with.

What argument? You've never once said anything about gay marriage.

Dude, is Article 4, Section 2 really that complicated for you as it relates to this thread?

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

Which has what to do with gay marriage?

 

[Skylar]

There is no Appeal to Ignorance of the law as enumerated in Article 4, Section 2 upon appeal to the general government and that Body of laws. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

And how does that relate to to gay marriage?

Thank you for ceding the argument and the point you couldn't seem to come up with.

What argument? You've never once said anything about gay marriage.

Dude, is Article 4, Section 2 really that complicated for you as it relates to this thread?

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

Connect the dots.

Include the word 'gay marriage' in your post.

The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states. ... Means that gender based laws are invalid, upon appeal to that body of laws.

So gay marriage bans are invalid?

 

[Silhouette]

Parents have greater rights over their children because they are responsible for them.

So how is it that courts determine when homes aren't safe for children? Do they consult with the parents and go by their recommendation? Or do they defer to child protection laws and statutes on behalf of a class of people who cannot vote or otherwise are powerless to affect their fate from their "owners", their parents?

What exactly do states get in return for incentivizing mother/father marriages? Should we consult the Prince's Trust study again for what a state gets out of providing role models of both genders for the kids as their minds form?...or rather what they lose if they don't incentivize mother/father?

 

[Skylar]

Parents have greater rights over their children because they are responsible for them.

So how is it that courts determine when homes aren't safe for children? Do they consult with the parents and go by their recommendation? Or do they defer to child protection laws and statutes on behalf of a class of people who cannot vote or otherwise are powerless to affect their fate from their "owners", their parents?

What exactly do states get in return for incentivizing mother/father marriages? Should we consult the Prince's Trust study again for what a state gets out of providing role models of both genders for the kids as their minds form?

Can you show me anywhere in the Prince Study where same sex couples are even mentioned? Or the effects of any form of parenting is measured?

Because I'm pretty sure that's just you citing yourself. Which is meaningless.

Meanwhile, there are a dozen studies that affirm that the children of same sex couples are healthy. Including studies from as far away as Australia. And you ignore them all.

The court wouldn't. And of course, the court has already ruled on harm caused to children by the denial of same sex marriage:

"And it humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by same-sex couples. The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives.....

......DOMA also brings financial harm to children of same-sex couples. It raises the cost of health care for families by taxing health benefits provided by employers to their workers’ same-sex spouses. And it denies or reduces benefits allowed to families upon the loss of a spouse and parent, benefits that are an integral part of family security.

Windsor v. US

With the author of the Windsor ruling finding this regarding the children of same sex parents:

"There is an immediate legal injury and that's the voice of these children," he said. "There's some 40,000 children in California, according to the Red Brief, that live with same-sex parents, and they want their parents to have full recognition and full status. The voice of those children is important in this case, don't you think?"

Justice Kennedy

Yet you persist in ignoring the court's finding regarding the very issue you've brought up and pretend that if you ignore it, the court must ignore itself.

If only reality worked that way. 4 months until Justice Kennedy writes on the topic again, Silo.

 

[Silhouette]

Can you show me anywhere in the Prince Study where same sex couples are even mentioned?

Sure, note the parts that talk about how children deprived of their same gender as a role model causes them pain, depression and suffering.

Then note that half of all children in "gay marriage" homes can be predicted to experience these issues..

Page 8 (the left side on the green background) http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/pdf/Youth_Index_jan2011.pdf

In addition to indexing the happiness and wellbeing of young people, the report explores some significant demographic differences between young people. They include a comparison between those not in education employment or training with their peers...those without a positive role model of their gender in their lives (women without a positive female role model and men without a positive male role model) and their peers...those with fewer than five GCSEs graded A* to C (or equivalent) with their peers... Respondents are asked how happy and confident they are in different areas of their life. The responses are converted to a numerical scale, resulting in a number out of 100-- with 100 representing entirely happy or confident and zero being not at all happy or confident.

Page 10 (The bold largest heading above the material that followed it)

Young people without a role model of the same gender in their lives

The Daily Mail article from the Prince's Trust study... Teens without parent role model are 67 per cent less likely to get a job Daily Mail Online

Young men with no male role models in their lives and women without a mother figure struggle to keep their lives on track, a hard-hitting report warns today. The Prince’s Trust youth index, the largest survey of its kind, found that....67 per cent more likely to be unemployed than their counterparts. They are also significantly more likely to stay unemployed for longer than their peers, the report suggests....It found that young men with no male role model are 50 per cent more likely to abuse drugs and young females in the corresponding position are significantly more likely to drink to excess..

Young men with no male role model to look up to were twice as likely to turn or consider turning to crime as a result of being unemployed...The report, which was based on interviews with 2,170 16 to 25-year-olds...These young men are also three times more likely to feel down or depressed all of the time and significantly more likely to admit that they cannot remember the last time they felt proud...They are also significantly less likely to feel happy and confident than those with male role models, according to the figures....The Prince’s Trust report, which was carried out by YouGov, suggests young people without male role models are more than twice as likely to lack a sense of belonging.

 

[Skylar]

Can you show me anywhere in the Prince Study where same sex couples are even mentioned?

Sure, note the parts that talk about how children deprived of their same gender as a role model causes them pain, depression and suffering.

Then note that half of all children in "gay marriage" homes can be predicted to experience these issues..

Page 8 (the left side on the green background) http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/pdf/Youth_Index_jan2011.pdf

In addition to indexing the happiness and wellbeing of young people, the report explores some significant demographic differences between young people. They include a comparison between those not in education employment or training with their peers...those without a positive role model of their gender in their lives (women without a positive female role model and men without a positive male role model) and their peers...those with fewer than five GCSEs graded A* to C (or equivalent) with their peers... Respondents are asked how happy and confident they are in different areas of their life. The responses are converted to a numerical scale, resulting in a number out of 100-- with 100 representing entirely happy or confident and zero being not at all happy or confident.

Page 10 (The bold largest heading above the material that followed it)

Young people without a role model of the same gender in their lives

The Daily Mail article from the Prince's Trust study... Teens without parent role model are 67 per cent less likely to get a job Daily Mail Online

Young men with no male role models in their lives and women without a mother figure struggle to keep their lives on track, a hard-hitting report warns today. The Prince’s Trust youth index, the largest survey of its kind, found that....67 per cent more likely to be unemployed than their counterparts. They are also significantly more likely to stay unemployed for longer than their peers, the report suggests....It found that young men with no male role model are 50 per cent more likely to abuse drugs and young females in the corresponding position are significantly more likely to drink to excess..

Young men with no male role model to look up to were twice as likely to turn or consider turning to crime as a result of being unemployed...The report, which was based on interviews with 2,170 16 to 25-year-olds...These young men are also three times more likely to feel down or depressed all of the time and significantly more likely to admit that they cannot remember the last time they felt proud...They are also significantly less likely to feel happy and confident than those with male role models, according to the figures....The Prince’s Trust report, which was carried out by YouGov, suggests young people without male role models are more than twice as likely to lack a sense of belonging.

And not one mention of same sex parenting or the measurement of the effects of any kind of parenting in anything you quoted.

So I ask again....can you show me anywhere in the Prince Study where same sex couples are even mentioned?

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and Silo.....your comic rout from the court's findings that the LACK of same sex marriage causes harm to children did not go unnoticed.

"And it humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by same-sex couples. The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives.....

......DOMA also brings financial harm to children of same-sex couples. It raises the cost of health care for families by taxing health benefits provided by employers to their workers’ same-sex spouses. And it denies or reduces benefits allowed to families upon the loss of a spouse and parent, benefits that are an integral part of family security.

Windsor v. US

With the author of the Windsor ruling finding this regarding the children of same sex parents:

"There is an immediate legal injury and that's the voice of these children," he said. "There's some 40,000 children in California, according to the Red Brief, that live with same-sex parents, and they want their parents to have full recognition and full status. The voice of those children is important in this case, don't you think?"

Justice Kennedy

1) You ignore the court's finding of harm to children from same sex marriage bans.

2) You ignore the court's finding that state marriage laws are subject to constitutional guarantees.

3) You ignore the fact that every challenge to same sex marriage bans being heard by the court are on the basis of the violation of these constitutional guarantees.

4) You ignore Scalia's conclusion that the Windsor court's position against gay marriage bans is 'beyond mistaking' and the SCOTUS overturning such same sex marriage bans was 'inevitable'.

Laughing......the court won't.

 

[Silhouette]

And you ignore the Prince's Trust study that tells us that 50% of the kids caught up in gay marriage will be set to harm by the lack of their gender as a role model:

Page 8 (the left side on the green background) http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/pdf/Youth_Index_jan2011.pdf

In addition to indexing the happiness and wellbeing of young people, the report explores some significant demographic differences between young people. They include a comparison between those not in education employment or training with their peers...those without a positive role model of their gender in their lives (women without a positive female role model and men without a positive male role model) and their peers...those with fewer than five GCSEs graded A* to C (or equivalent) with their peers... Respondents are asked how happy and confident they are in different areas of their life. The responses are converted to a numerical scale, resulting in a number out of 100-- with 100 representing entirely happy or confident and zero being not at all happy or confident.

Page 10 (The bold largest heading above the material that followed it)

Young people without a role model of the same gender in their lives

The Daily Mail article from the Prince's Trust study... Teens without parent role model are 67 per cent less likely to get a job Daily Mail Online

Young men with no male role models in their lives and women without a mother figure struggle to keep their lives on track, a hard-hitting report warns today. The Prince’s Trust youth index, the largest survey of its kind, found that....67 per cent more likely to be unemployed than their counterparts. They are also significantly more likely to stay unemployed for longer than their peers, the report suggests....It found that young men with no male role model are 50 per cent more likely to abuse drugs and young females in the corresponding position are significantly more likely to drink to excess..

Young men with no male role model to look up to were twice as likely to turn or consider turning to crime as a result of being unemployed...The report, which was based on interviews with 2,170 16 to 25-year-olds...These young men are also three times more likely to feel down or depressed all of the time and significantly more likely to admit that they cannot remember the last time they felt proud...They are also significantly less likely to feel happy and confident than those with male role models, according to the figures....The Prince’s Trust report, which was carried out by YouGov, suggests young people without male role models are more than twice as likely to lack a sense of belonging.

 

[Skylar]

And you ignore the Prince's Trust study that tells us that 50% of the kids caught up in gay marriage will be set to harm by the lack of their gender as a role model:

Page 8 (the left side on the green background) http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/pdf/Youth_Index_jan2011.pdf

In addition to indexing the happiness and wellbeing of young people, the report explores some significant demographic differences between young people. They include a comparison between those not in education employment or training with their peers...those without a positive role model of their gender in their lives (women without a positive female role model and men without a positive male role model) and their peers...those with fewer than five GCSEs graded A* to C (or equivalent) with their peers... Respondents are asked how happy and confident they are in different areas of their life. The responses are converted to a numerical scale, resulting in a number out of 100-- with 100 representing entirely happy or confident and zero being not at all happy or confident.

Page 10 (The bold largest heading above the material that followed it)

Young people without a role model of the same gender in their lives

The Daily Mail article from the Prince's Trust study... Teens without parent role model are 67 per cent less likely to get a job Daily Mail Online

Young men with no male role models in their lives and women without a mother figure struggle to keep their lives on track, a hard-hitting report warns today. The Prince’s Trust youth index, the largest survey of its kind, found that....67 per cent more likely to be unemployed than their counterparts. They are also significantly more likely to stay unemployed for longer than their peers, the report suggests....It found that young men with no male role model are 50 per cent more likely to abuse drugs and young females in the corresponding position are significantly more likely to drink to excess..

Young men with no male role model to look up to were twice as likely to turn or consider turning to crime as a result of being unemployed...The report, which was based on interviews with 2,170 16 to 25-year-olds...These young men are also three times more likely to feel down or depressed all of the time and significantly more likely to admit that they cannot remember the last time they felt proud...They are also significantly less likely to feel happy and confident than those with male role models, according to the figures....The Prince’s Trust report, which was carried out by YouGov, suggests young people without male role models are more than twice as likely to lack a sense of belonging.

And again, not a single mention of same sex parenting, or the effects of any style of parenting.

Keep searching. If you wish hard enough, perhaps you'll actually find it!

In the meantime, I'll keep laughing at yet another chickenshit rout from the explicit findings of the Windsor court which contradict you on harm to children.

4 months til Kennedy speaks again on this issue, Silo. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

Sil,

There is a stay request at the Supreme Court from Alabama. As of Monday SSCM will become a reality in Alabama unless the SCOTUS grants a stay pending a final ruling from them on the issue.

So what is your call? Will the SCOTUS issue the stay to Alabama or will they reject the stay meaning SSCM starts on Monday?


(Cross posting just to make sure you see it.)


>>>>

 

[Syriusly]

And you ignore the Prince's Trust study]

Yes- we ignore what is irrelevant to the issue of same gender marriage.

 

[Skylar]

>

Sil,

There is a stay request at the Supreme Court from Alabama. As of Monday SSCM will become a reality in Alabama unless the SCOTUS grants a stay pending a final ruling from them on the issue.

So what is your call? Will the SCOTUS issue the stay to Alabama or will they reject the stay meaning SSCM starts on Monday?


(Cross posting just to make sure you see it.)


>>>>

Actually, that got shot down by the 11th circuit. They extended the stay yesterday until the USSC rules.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

Sil,

There is a stay request at the Supreme Court from Alabama. As of Monday SSCM will become a reality in Alabama unless the SCOTUS grants a stay pending a final ruling from them on the issue.

So what is your call? Will the SCOTUS issue the stay to Alabama or will they reject the stay meaning SSCM starts on Monday?


(Cross posting just to make sure you see it.)


>>>>

Actually, that got shot down by the 11th circuit. They extended the stay yesterday until the USSC rules.

I believe what the 11th did yesterday was place their cases in a state of abeyance pending a ruling form the SCOTUS. They didn't issue a stay though in the cases, the lower court rulings still go into effect because they declined to issue a stay so Alabama has requested one from the SCOTUS.

Eleventh Circuit puts off same-sex marriage cases SCOTUSblog
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-co...labama-marriage-Searcy-11th-CA-hold-order.pdf


>>>>

 

[Skylar]

>

Sil,

There is a stay request at the Supreme Court from Alabama. As of Monday SSCM will become a reality in Alabama unless the SCOTUS grants a stay pending a final ruling from them on the issue.

So what is your call? Will the SCOTUS issue the stay to Alabama or will they reject the stay meaning SSCM starts on Monday?


(Cross posting just to make sure you see it.)


>>>>

Actually, that got shot down by the 11th circuit. They extended the stay yesterday until the USSC rules.

I believe what the 11th did yesterday was place their cases in a state of abeyance pending a ruling form the SCOTUS. They didn't issue a stay though in the cases, the lower court rulings still go into effect because they declined to issue a stay so Alabama has requested one from the SCOTUS.

Eleventh Circuit puts off same-sex marriage cases SCOTUSblog
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-co...labama-marriage-Searcy-11th-CA-hold-order.pdf


>>>>

Those descriptions are....ambiguous. As they don't explicitly state if gay marriages are allowed in Alabama. Lets see if we can get a better answer. I'd rather be correct than consistent.

 

[Skylar]

The appeals court's memo does not change or impede a federal judge’s order that same-sex marriages begin in Alabama on Feb. 9.

Eleventh Circuit says it will wait for Supreme Court on same sex marriage - CSMonitor.com

Looks like you may be right.

 

[Skylar]

Given that the court has refused stays from every other lower court ruling that has overturned gay marriage, granting a stay in this instance would probably only mean that the court is putting everything into a holding pattern until the ruling in June.

I'd say 60-40 they deny the stay.