Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

So.... it's better for the oligarchy to own the government than for the government to work for the People against the monopolizing power and wealth of the oligarchy?

Strawman, no one said that

Libertarianism is a moderate system where employers, employees, suppliers, consumers, investors and all other market players come together as equals, no one has advantage over the others. If employers don't treat their employers well or don't pay them enough, employees are free to find better jobs. If suppliers do not treat their customers right, they are free to walk across the street to their competition.

Liberalism is an extremist system where using force, government provides artificial power to unions, select companies, and anyone else who lobbies them hard enough and pays them enough cash. You support not only an oligarchy, but a full monopoly of force where only government has guns and government uses them freely to impose it's will on companies, customers, employers, employees and everyone else.
 
Moderates deal in reality. You've never even heard of it...

I'm a moderate in government. Small, but non existent. Treat all it's citizens equally. Be the last resort and not the first. It's your belief that government can make life fair for it's citizens with ubiquitous power and monopoly of force is what's tripping.

I'm a moderate in government

Sorry man, I was laughing so hard that my eyes filled up with tears and I couldn't read what you wrote after this. What did you say after this again?
 
I'm a moderate in government. Small, but non existent. Treat all it's citizens equally. Be the last resort and not the first. It's your belief that government can make life fair for it's citizens with ubiquitous power and monopoly of force is what's tripping.

I'm a moderate in government

Sorry man, I was laughing so hard that my eyes filled up with tears and I couldn't read what you wrote after this. What did you say after this again?

Show why a libertarian perspective is preferable

I'm a moderate in government. I want the right sized government as determined by the voters. I want a government that does what needs doing. I realize that most things are best done as an individual, but many things are better done as a collective society than in a dog eat dog environment
 
I want the right sized government as determined by the voters. I want a government that does what needs doing. I realize that most things are best done as an individual, but many things are better done as a collective society than in a dog eat dog environment

LOL, so if 50 percent of the voters plus one vote for Marxism, then Marxism is moderate! Screw everyone else, they were outvoted! Sure it is, sure it is...

The majority voted repeatedly against gay government marriage and the courts overruled them with your applause. So maybe you're not so concerned with the voters...
 
Show why a libertarian perspective is preferable

The OP post was about that and it's what I've argued through the thread. Instead of just asking me to repeat it all, build on that.
 
Show why a libertarian perspective is preferable

The OP post was about that and it's what I've argued through the thread. Instead of just asking me to repeat it all, build on that.

Why would it be preferable to the size and scope of government wanted by the American people?

Why should a country of over 300 million people and the largest GDP be satisfied with "small government"?
 
Show why a libertarian perspective is preferable

The OP post was about that and it's what I've argued through the thread. Instead of just asking me to repeat it all, build on that.

Why would it be preferable to the size and scope of government wanted by the American people?

Why should a country of over 300 million people and the largest GDP be satisfied with "small government"?

Because our country was built on respect for the individual, not the tyranny of the majority.

You're full of it anyway, you want authoritarian leftism, not democracy. Every time the authoritarian leftists courts overturn Democracy you cheer. Abortion, gay government marriage, discrimination in favor of minorities, taking land by force for the interest of the government and not for public use, you cheer it all. "Majority" for you is just a justification for only those things you agree with the majority on.

You're an extremist who only cares about the selfish interests of roughly half the country. I'm a moderate who cares about the liberty of the entire country.

When you get your way, my choice is eliminated. When I get my way, your choice is intact. You can still give to charity, you can still help people. So can I.

That you are the extremist and I am the moderate is just blatantly clear.
 
The OP post was about that and it's what I've argued through the thread. Instead of just asking me to repeat it all, build on that.

Why would it be preferable to the size and scope of government wanted by the American people?

Why should a country of over 300 million people and the largest GDP be satisfied with "small government"?

Because our country was built on respect for the individual, not the tyranny of the majority.

You're full of it anyway, you want authoritarian leftism, not democracy. Every time the authoritarian leftists courts overturn Democracy you cheer. Abortion, gay government marriage, discrimination in favor of minorities, taking land by force for the interest of the government and not for public use, you cheer it all. "Majority" for you is just a justification for only those things you agree with the majority on.

You're an extremist who only cares about the selfish interests of roughly half the country. I'm a moderate who cares about the liberty of the entire country.

When you get your way, my choice is eliminated. When I get my way, your choice is intact. You can still give to charity, you can still help people. So can I.

That you are the extremist and I am the moderate is just blatantly clear.

Wrong

Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles
 
Why would it be preferable to the size and scope of government wanted by the American people?

Why should a country of over 300 million people and the largest GDP be satisfied with "small government"?

Because our country was built on respect for the individual, not the tyranny of the majority.

You're full of it anyway, you want authoritarian leftism, not democracy. Every time the authoritarian leftists courts overturn Democracy you cheer. Abortion, gay government marriage, discrimination in favor of minorities, taking land by force for the interest of the government and not for public use, you cheer it all. "Majority" for you is just a justification for only those things you agree with the majority on.

You're an extremist who only cares about the selfish interests of roughly half the country. I'm a moderate who cares about the liberty of the entire country.

When you get your way, my choice is eliminated. When I get my way, your choice is intact. You can still give to charity, you can still help people. So can I.

That you are the extremist and I am the moderate is just blatantly clear.

Wrong

Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles

It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.
 
Because our country was built on respect for the individual, not the tyranny of the majority.

You're full of it anyway, you want authoritarian leftism, not democracy. Every time the authoritarian leftists courts overturn Democracy you cheer. Abortion, gay government marriage, discrimination in favor of minorities, taking land by force for the interest of the government and not for public use, you cheer it all. "Majority" for you is just a justification for only those things you agree with the majority on.

You're an extremist who only cares about the selfish interests of roughly half the country. I'm a moderate who cares about the liberty of the entire country.

When you get your way, my choice is eliminated. When I get my way, your choice is intact. You can still give to charity, you can still help people. So can I.

That you are the extremist and I am the moderate is just blatantly clear.

Wrong

Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles

It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.

There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority
 
Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

Right, when you plunder the achievers, you're not caring about your own selfish interest. You are a mouthpiece for the gimme generation. Your parents were the greatest generation, you were the worst. Apparently the greatest generation weren't the greatest parents.

As for libertarians:

Martin Luther King Jr. No man is free unless all men are free.

Libertarians are smart enough to know that if we can infringe on other people's rights, then they can infringe on ours and then it just comes down to force. So by caring about our own liberty, we care about everyone else's liberty, you can't separate that.

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles

I address this in my sig, do you know which quote it is?
 
Wrong

Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles

It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.

There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority

Checks and balances, dude, you are convinced that Obama is a dictator. And it's working. He cowed the Supreme Court on Obamacare, he crushed the Republican majority in the House, and he bypasses everyone with his empirical decrees which are so called executive orders.
 
I see. Your food stamp allowance wasn't high enough so now you are ready for
V-I-O-L-E-N-C-E

Just remember vioelnce begets violence.

.



"The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general mass of those associated under it."

Thomas Jefferson










What are the American ideals? They are the development of the individual for his own and the common good; the development of the individual through liberty, and the attainment of the common good through democracy and social justice.
Louis Brandeis, SCOTUS “True Americanism” (1915).

That does not mean a gargantuan welfare state ready to steal loot and plunder in order to support the ever growing hordes of parasites.

.

Keynes wrote "The End of Laissez Faire" in 1926. He was correct then, and his insight remains more valid than any economics that conservative Libertarians propound ad infinitum and ad nauseum. Laissez Faire is nothing more than a childish Christmas wish of no substance; just hope and myth, and smoke and mirrors. Fails every time we try even the tiniest bit.



80% of the population owns 5% of the wealth.

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

The middle class has been eviscerated.


MIDDLE CLASS WAS CREATED BY PROGRESSIVE POLICIES, IT ISN'T A NATURAL STATE OF 'CAPITALISM' GROW UP


"Conservatives" is just a euphemism for thugs and bullies, so "Religious Conservatives" is redundant


That is the problem, conservatives very seldom tell you their intentions. They talk nuances "job creation" "deficit reduction", "Austerity", They just can not say it loud and proud: I WILL GIVE YOUR GOVERNMENT TO THE RICH AND POWERFUL, (because is unfair that The Middle Class make any money at all and corporations do not get to keep all of it) SO I CAN GIVE IT TO THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE MOST OF THE MONEY FROM BUYING CONGRESSMEN AND DEREGULATING INDUSTRY.
 
That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.



It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.

There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority

Checks and balances, dude, you are convinced that Obama is a dictator. And it's working. He cowed the Supreme Court on Obamacare, he crushed the Republican majority in the House, and he bypasses everyone with his empirical decrees which are so called executive orders.

Capt Hyperbole

Obama is a "Dictator" ?
- How do you explain his inability to deal with a Do Nothing Congress?
_ How do you explain yesterdays Supreme Court decisions?
 
The OP post was about that and it's what I've argued through the thread. Instead of just asking me to repeat it all, build on that.

Why would it be preferable to the size and scope of government wanted by the American people?

Why should a country of over 300 million people and the largest GDP be satisfied with "small government"?

Because our country was built on respect for the individual, not the tyranny of the majority.

You're full of it anyway, you want authoritarian leftism, not democracy. Every time the authoritarian leftists courts overturn Democracy you cheer. Abortion, gay government marriage, discrimination in favor of minorities, taking land by force for the interest of the government and not for public use, you cheer it all. "Majority" for you is just a justification for only those things you agree with the majority on.

You're an extremist who only cares about the selfish interests of roughly half the country. I'm a moderate who cares about the liberty of the entire country.

When you get your way, my choice is eliminated. When I get my way, your choice is intact. You can still give to charity, you can still help people. So can I.

That you are the extremist and I am the moderate is just blatantly clear.






Why Thomas Jefferson Favored Profit Sharing
By David Cay Johnston

The founders, despite decades of rancorous disagreements about almost every other aspect of their grand experiment, agreed that America would survive and thrive only if there was widespread ownership of land and businesses.

George Washington, nine months before his inauguration as the first president, predicted that America "will be the most favorable country of any kind in the world for persons of industry and frugality, possessed of moderate capital, to inhabit." And, he continued, "it will not be less advantageous to the happiness of the lowest class of people, because of the equal distribution of property."

The second president, John Adams, feared "monopolies of land" would destroy the nation and that a business aristocracy born of inequality would manipulate voters, creating "a system of subordination to all... The capricious will of one or a very few" dominating the rest. Unless constrained, Adams wrote, "the rich and the proud" would wield economic and political power that "will destroy all the equality and liberty, with the consent and acclamations of the people themselves."

James Madison, the Constitution's main author, described inequality as an evil, saying government should prevent "an immoderate, and especially unmerited, accumulation of riches." He favored "the silent operation of laws which, without violating the rights of property, reduce extreme wealth towards a state of mediocrity, and raise extreme indigents towards a state of comfort."


Alexander Hamilton, who championed manufacturing and banking as the first Treasury secretary, also argued for widespread ownership of assets, warning in 1782 that, "whenever a discretionary power is lodged in any set of men over the property of their neighbors, they will abuse it."

Late in life, Adams, pessimistic about whether the republic would endure, wrote that the goal of the democratic government was not to help the wealthy and powerful but to achieve "the greatest happiness for the greatest number."



http://www.newsweek.com/2014/02/07/why-thomas-jefferson-favored-profit-sharing-245454.html




Annual Message of 1815 (Seven Points)

Funds for national defense
Frigates for the Navy
A standing army and federal control of the militia
Federal aid for building roads and canals
A protective tariff to encourage manufacturers
Re-establishing the National Bank
Federal assumption of some state debt


James Madison: Seventh Annual Message




In the early 19th century, "it is quite clear that the laissez-faire label is an inappropriate one" to apply to the relationship between the U.S. government and industry

Daniel Webster, the Boston Associates, and the U.S. Government's Role in the Industrializing Process, 1815–183



(Re-)Introducing: The American School of Economics


When the United States became independent from Britain it also rebelled against the British System of economics, characterized by Adam Smith, in favor of the American School based on protectionism and infrastructure and prospered under this system for almost 200 years to become the wealthiest nation in the world. Unrestrained free trade resurfaced in the early 1900s culminating in the Great Depression and again in the 1970s culminating in the current Economic Meltdown.



Closely related to mercantilism, it can be seen as contrary to classical economics. It consisted of these three core policies:

protecting industry through selective high tariffs (especially 1861–1932) and through subsidies (especially 1932–70)

government investments in infrastructure creating targeted internal improvements (especially in transportation)

a national bank with policies that promote the growth of productive enterprises rather than speculation



Frank Bourgin's 1989 study of the Constitutional Convention shows that direct government involvement in the economy was intended by the Founders.

American School of Economics



American School (economics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
What bullshit. Libertarians are not much different then liberals in the fact that they try and destroy the first amendment and force their drug culture on the rest of us.

Out of curiosity, how is opposing the War on Drugs which is used to invade our privacy without warrants, regulate our financial transactions and control the flow of cash without checks and balances without removing the drugs a restriction on YOUR freedom? You are the one with the choice, we just want you to stop. Explain how that maxes sense

And what are you talking about with destroying the first amendment? That makes no sense at all.
 
There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority

Checks and balances, dude, you are convinced that Obama is a dictator. And it's working. He cowed the Supreme Court on Obamacare, he crushed the Republican majority in the House, and he bypasses everyone with his empirical decrees which are so called executive orders.

Capt Hyperbole

Obama is a "Dictator" ?

Strawman, what I said is in red. I gave several examples of how it as worked. That it hasn't worked 100% of the time doesn't contradict me.

- How do you explain his inability to deal with a Do Nothing Congress?
Already addressed, he forced a GOP controlled House to succumb to his will. With the force of the liberal media.

_ How do you explain yesterdays Supreme Court decisions?

This question is related to your strawman, not what I said.
 
That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.



It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.

There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority

Checks and balances, dude, you are convinced that Obama is a dictator. And it's working. He cowed the Supreme Court on Obamacare, he crushed the Republican majority in the House, and he bypasses everyone with his empirical decrees which are so called executive orders.

Cowed SCOTUS? Explain yesterday? lol


Administration of Barack Obama Executive Orders

Total 180


Administration of George W. Bush Executive Orders

Total 291



Administration of William J. Clinton Executive Orders

Total 364


Administration of George HW Bush Executive Orders (4 YEARS)


Total 166


List of United States federal executive orders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


RONNIE REAGAN


381 Total Executive Orders Issued

Reagan Executive Orders Disposition Tables
 
Wrong

Libertarians do not care about the liberty of the whole country, they only care about their own self interest

That's simply an unsupported insult and a lie, and you know better.

Your "tyranny of the majority" is just self serving whining because the majority of Americans abhor libertarian principles

It's whining about the "blank check" authority that you want to give to democratic rule. It's insane and short sighted. If it holds sway, we'll all come to regret it.

There is no "blank check"

That is why we have checks and balances between our branches of government and a court system to protect the rights of the minority

Exactly, and those checks and balances work by enforcing constitutional limits on the power of the majority. But you keep arguing against such limitations. Are you schizophrenic?
 
Found this today and thought it was very profound:

486914_442072315840962_207720530_n.jpg

You mean like Warren Buffet who advocates higher tax rates then hires an army of accountants to evade taxes by twisting the tax code to get paid in capital gains in what is at a minimum unethical if not illegal?

Or Bill Gates who advocates a confiscatory tax rate then hires an army of lawyers to set up massive trusts to evade paying them so he can use his own money for what he wants to use it for instead of what he advocates?

Or the Obamas who gave bupkus to charity when they both had six figure incomes until he ran for public office and knowing his charitable gifts would be scrutinized at some point then started giving?

Or millionaire Bill Clinton who was not rich when he entered public office but is rich now (making one wonder...), who deducted $50 a pair for used underwear?

Or Obama who says he should pay higher tax rates, and doesn't...

Or Charlie Rangle who headed the tax writing committee and didn't know what every businessman knows, which is you have to declare foreign income.

Or Tom Daschle, who was Senate Majority leader and didn't know what every businessman knows, which is you have to pay taxes when you get perks like a free car and driver.

Or Zoe Baird who was rich and wanted to be our primary law enforcement attorney, but didn't want to pay payroll taxes for her household staff.

Yeah, paragons of virtue Democrats are. I see why you're all over that.

MORE right wing garbage


Buffett does no such thing, like Romney his income was mostly dividends and capital gains. Grow up, get honest just once


CONFISCATORY RATES? LOL


CBO: Fed tax rates hit historic low

The average tax rates for American households reached a historical low in 2009, according to a report issued by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

Indeed, federal taxes for American households averaged 17.4 percent in 2009, a historical low over the 1979 to 2009 period.

WEIRD, WASN'T THAT WHEN THE TP (BIRCHERS) WERE FORMED?


CBO: Fed tax rates hit historic low - Tim Mak - POLITICO.com


Your taxes are really low, in one chart


taxes.png





The average filer saw her effective tax rate drop from 22 percent in 1979 to 18.1 percent in 2010

Your taxes are really low, in one chart - The Washington Post


Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950


Federal, state and local income taxes consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950

Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950 - USATODAY.com




The fortunate 400

400 tax returns reporting the highest incomes in 2009.

Six American families paid no federal income taxes in 2009 while making something on the order of $200 million each.
another 110 families paid 15 percent or less in federal income taxes.
The fortunate 400: David Cay Johnston | Reuters

The 400 richest Americans used to pay 30% of their income on the average to Uncle Sam(but 55% in 1955).




Corporate Taxes as a Percentage of Federal Revenue

1955 . . . 27.3%
2010 . . . 8.9%

Corporate Taxes as a Percentage of GDP

1955 . . . 4.3%
2010 . . . 1.3%

Individual Income/Payrolls as a Percentage of Federal Revenue

1955 . . . 58.0%
2010 . . . 81.5%

Corporate Profits Are At An All-Time High

'corporate profits are at an all-time high as a percentage of the economy, wages are at an all-time low.'

'Last year, corporations made a record $824 billion, which didn’t stop conservatives from continually claiming that President Obama is anti-business.'
Corporate Profits Are At An All-Time High | ThinkProgress
 

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