Legalize Drugs, Why?

[westwall]

The net gain for society is you no longer have completely innocent bystanders killed because of wars over drug selling territory. You don't have dipshits breaking into others houses to feed their habit, you don't have drug addled halfwits abusing their children because they are afraid to seek help. The list is a pretty long one if you just think about it.

You presume. By that logic, alcoholics never cause harm to society at the hands of their drug of choice.

That is not the case.

Alcoholics cause harm by their actions. However, there is no criminal enterprise that causes harm far beyond what the individual can do. Think Chicago in the 1930's.

 

[geauxtohell]

That is the case though. Of course there are allways going to be a few who go on to harder things. But the majority won't and if the stuff is legal you don't see a lot of meth use because the cocaine (especially pure) is actually cheaper to get, give a better effect and in general has no bad side effects.

If you have a choice of buying moonshine from some garage operation or fine whiskey from a store with a government stamp on it...and the good stuff is cheaper, why would you ever buy the crap that can kill you?

That's not really true.

Meth has a much longer half life than cocaine and, while also a stimulant, it has different effects than Cocaine.

Their mechanism of action on the brain is similar, but not exactly the same.

Yes but pure coke is MUCH cheaper than Meth. And it has no immediate bad side effects.

And some people will still choose Meth over Cocaine simply due to it's six hour half life (versus cocaine which has a 30 minute half life).

If you think pure Cocaine has no immediate bad side effects, you are incorrect. People who die of cardiovascular events on cocaine don't die due to impurities. They die because their body couldn't handle the effects the drug was designed to create.

 

[geauxtohell]

Alcoholics cause harm by their actions. However, there is no criminal enterprise that causes harm far beyond what the individual can do. Think Chicago in the 1930's.

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

 

[westwall]

The problem is if it is a legal matter most will wait till it's too late to save them. If it is a purely medical issue there will be no issues there. As far as the other, who cares? I could give a flying f you know what what someone does in the privacy of their home. Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If you truly believe in this great country of ours then the Declaration of Independence and it's guarantee of the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness should actually mean something to you.

The main problem with illegal narcotics is as Huggy said, the vile stuff they have to do to feed the habit. Legalise the drugs and that whole paradigm changes overnight.

I am someone who never bought into the libertarian fantasy-land.

Again, you guys presume all the ill-effects of drugs is due to the criminality of the matter, because that's the most immediate and tangible issue.

However, the larger problem are the substances themselves which are highly addictive and destroy lives.

I can buy the: "Individuals have the right to **** up their lives" to an extent. However, it's fair for society as a whole to ask: what benefit is this to us as a whole?

I have no desire for America to become a paradigm of Brave New World and for everyone to have their own "soma".

I am someone who has never been drunk or stoned in my life. It has frankly never interested me. I watched my dad as a youngster and saw the effects it had on him and said to myself eww, i don't want to look like that when I get up in the morning! His brother my uncle obviously died of drug in the 1980's. He wasn't high at the time but had used so many hard drugs he just kicked off from a heart attck.

People like them can't be saved. But the youngster laying in their bed can. I don't care what happens to addicts, I really don't. I do care about all of those innocent people who have died because some asshole has decided he would rather be a killer drug dealer than a productive member of society.

Legalisation puts those pricks out of work.

 

[geauxtohell]

I am someone who has never been drunk or stoned in my life. It has frankly never interested me. I watched my dad as a youngster and saw the effects it had on him and said to myself eww, i don't want to look like that when I get up in the morning! His brother my uncle obviously died of drug in the 1980's. He wasn't high at the time but had used so many hard drugs he just kicked off from a heart attck.

People like them can't be saved. But the youngster laying in their bed can. I don't care what happens to addicts, I really don't. I do care about all of those innocent people who have died because some asshole has decided he would rather be a killer drug dealer than a productive member of society.

Legalisation puts those pricks out of work.

So it took you personally experiencing how destructive substance abuse can be after watching it harm your family members to decide that using these things was a bad idea for you?

Why do you think this is a good idea, again?

 

[westwall]

Alcoholics cause harm by their actions. However, there is no criminal enterprise that causes harm far beyond what the individual can do. Think Chicago in the 1930's.

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

 

[geauxtohell]

Alcoholics cause harm by their actions. However, there is no criminal enterprise that causes harm far beyond what the individual can do. Think Chicago in the 1930's.

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

 

[kwc57]

I do want to commend everyone in this thread for having a decent and mature conversation. I've participated in a number of these drug legalization threads here that devolve into name calling and political hackery. Thanks!

 

[High_Gravity]

I do want to commend everyone in this thread for having a decent and mature conversation. I've participated in a number of these drug legalization threads here that devolve into name calling and political hackery. Thanks!

I am also glad no one resorted to name calling either, it is good to have a civilized discussion with adults.

 

[High_Gravity]

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

Thats the ticket right there.

 

[del]

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

but they will be boosting the benzos, adderol, ritalin, vicodin, percocet, codeine, oxys et al. how is that different?

 

[kwc57]

Right. And this would be different with people who use methamphetamine, heroin, and/or cocaine because of why?

Like I said, if you remove the criminality of the matter, it doesn't change the fact that these substances are problematic unto themselves.

Again, what benefit to society, other than someone's personal political science experiment, does legalization provide?

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

But again, this is where personal responsibility and good parenting come into play. My son can't sneak any of my cigarettes, beer or herion out to use.......because I don't have any. He has been raised in an environment where he has been taught what those things can do to you and has a life example to follow. He's my son, I'm his dad. What he does, who he does it with and where he goes is my business. Period, end of story. He is 17.5, an honors student in his senior year and just made Eagle Scout less than a month ago. He comes home everyday shaking his head and laughing about this kid or that kid who came to school drunk or high. He thinks they are idiots. He was given a good example and he has been exposed to the bad examples and he has come away from it with a personal decision of how he wants to live his life. He doesn't want to party, get high and flip burgers the rest of his life. He wants to take his scholarship and study engineering and live a lifestyle as good or better than his parents.

There is no reason that what happened in my house can't happen in others. But it takes a committment to good parenting and personal responsibility and providing the right kind of example. Not everyone else does that....and that is why I volunteer my time in Scouting to hopefully make a positive difference in other kid's lives as well. I can do that regardless of what the government deems legal or illegal to sell.

I really don't want people to take away from this that I think I'm better than anyone else or that I think I have all the answers. Life is a series of choices and we can ultimately only make those choices for ourselves. I can do all I've done and five years from now my son could become an addict. I don't think that will happen and I like to think that it is because I did it right. I really don't need the government limiting our freedom of choice to do my job as a parent.

 

[geauxtohell]

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

but they will be boosting the benzos, adderol, ritalin, vicodin, percocet, codeine, oxys et al. how is that different?

It's not. Which is why those substances are controlled.

 

[del]

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

but they will be boosting the benzos, adderol, ritalin, vicodin, percocet, codeine, oxys et al. how is that different?

It's not. Which is why those substances are controlled.

and yet they get out on the street anyway. i certainly don't favor untrammeled access to rec drugs, but treating them the same as booze seems to me to be worth trying.

i've been wrong before, though

 

[High_Gravity]

Why wouldn't it? I have historical data to back up my opinion. What do you have?

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

But again, this is where personal responsibility and good parenting come into play. My son can't sneak any of my cigarettes, beer or herion out to use.......because I don't have any. He has been raised in an environment where he has been taught what those things can do to you and has a life example to follow. He's my son, I'm his dad. What he does, who he does it with and where he goes is my business. Period, end of story. He is 17.5, an honors student in his senior year and just made Eagle Scout less than a month ago. He comes home everyday shaking his head and laughing about this kid or that kid who came to school drunk or high. He thinks they are idiots. He was given a good example and he has been exposed to the bad examples and he has come away from it with a personal decision of how he wants to live his life. He doesn't want to party, get high and flip burgers the rest of his life. He wants to take his scholarship and study engineering and live a lifestyle as good or better than his parents.
There is no reason that what happened in my house can't happen in others. But it takes a committment to good parenting and personal responsibility and providing the right kind of example. Not everyone else does that....and that is why I volunteer my time in Scouting to hopefully make a positive difference in other kid's lives as well. I can do that regardless of what the government deems legal or illegal to sell.

I really don't want people to take away from this that I think I'm better than anyone else or that I think I have all the answers. Life is a series of choices and we can ultimately only make those choices for ourselves. I can do all I've done and five years from now my son could become an addict. I don't think that will happen and I like to think that it is because I did it right. I really don't need the government limiting our freedom of choice to do my job as a parent.

I applaude you raising your son in a positive environment, but sometimes thats not enough. My brother is a heroin addict and we were raised in the same home, my father was not a drug addict, he did smoke and drink but never did drugs or had it in the home. But, in high school my brother was a big pothead and than later got into heroin, he said he could control it but he could not, one day my father came home and found that he sold everything in the house, fridge, coaches, beds, washers, etc EVERYTHING, to payback the credit he owed his drug dealer. Me and my brother are total opposites, I served 7 years in the Military and now hold a good job with the government, my brother dropped out of high school to do drugs, joined the Army but was sent back home in basic training because he tested positive for cocaine on the drug test, and is now serving time in Wasco State Penn in California for domestic violence, drug possession and various parole violations. Sometimes providing a good home is not enough.

 

[kwc57]

All substances are not created equal and prohibition is not a "once size fits all" argument in favor of legalization.

As for what I have, I have the status quo in which kids will sneak out to smoke a cigarette or drink a beer, but generally not to shoot up on the heroin they boosted out of dad's drug cabinet.

But again, this is where personal responsibility and good parenting come into play. My son can't sneak any of my cigarettes, beer or herion out to use.......because I don't have any. He has been raised in an environment where he has been taught what those things can do to you and has a life example to follow. He's my son, I'm his dad. What he does, who he does it with and where he goes is my business. Period, end of story. He is 17.5, an honors student in his senior year and just made Eagle Scout less than a month ago. He comes home everyday shaking his head and laughing about this kid or that kid who came to school drunk or high. He thinks they are idiots. He was given a good example and he has been exposed to the bad examples and he has come away from it with a personal decision of how he wants to live his life. He doesn't want to party, get high and flip burgers the rest of his life. He wants to take his scholarship and study engineering and live a lifestyle as good or better than his parents.
There is no reason that what happened in my house can't happen in others. But it takes a committment to good parenting and personal responsibility and providing the right kind of example. Not everyone else does that....and that is why I volunteer my time in Scouting to hopefully make a positive difference in other kid's lives as well. I can do that regardless of what the government deems legal or illegal to sell.

I really don't want people to take away from this that I think I'm better than anyone else or that I think I have all the answers. Life is a series of choices and we can ultimately only make those choices for ourselves. I can do all I've done and five years from now my son could become an addict. I don't think that will happen and I like to think that it is because I did it right. I really don't need the government limiting our freedom of choice to do my job as a parent.

I applaude you raising your son in a positive environment, but sometimes thats not enough. My brother is a heroin addict and we were raised in the same home, my father was not a drug addict, he did smoke and drink but never did drugs or had it in the home. But, in high school my brother was a big pothead and than later got into heroin, he said he could control it but he could not, one day my father came home and found that he sold everything in the house, fridge, coaches, beds, washers, etc EVERYTHING, to payback the credit he owed his drug dealer. Me and my brother are total opposites, I served 7 years in the Military and now hold a good job with the government, my brother dropped out of high school to do drugs, joined the Army but was sent back home in basic training because he tested positive for cocaine on the drug test, and is now serving time in Wasco State Penn in California for domestic violence, drug possession and various parole violations. Sometimes providing a good home is not enough.

True. Life is choices. All we can do as parents is point the right way and back it up by our example. But eventually, your children make their own choices and as painful as it is to watch, it is their choice. You can't change what they decide. My older brother was a pot head back in high school and I'm sure he did some harder stuff. At some point he grew out of it and turned back into a responsible and sensible person. He was married with two kids and finished his college education and has held a management position in a very large corporation for the past 30 years. Personal responsibility and freedom to choose.

 

[High_Gravity]

But again, this is where personal responsibility and good parenting come into play. My son can't sneak any of my cigarettes, beer or herion out to use.......because I don't have any. He has been raised in an environment where he has been taught what those things can do to you and has a life example to follow. He's my son, I'm his dad. What he does, who he does it with and where he goes is my business. Period, end of story. He is 17.5, an honors student in his senior year and just made Eagle Scout less than a month ago. He comes home everyday shaking his head and laughing about this kid or that kid who came to school drunk or high. He thinks they are idiots. He was given a good example and he has been exposed to the bad examples and he has come away from it with a personal decision of how he wants to live his life. He doesn't want to party, get high and flip burgers the rest of his life. He wants to take his scholarship and study engineering and live a lifestyle as good or better than his parents.
There is no reason that what happened in my house can't happen in others. But it takes a committment to good parenting and personal responsibility and providing the right kind of example. Not everyone else does that....and that is why I volunteer my time in Scouting to hopefully make a positive difference in other kid's lives as well. I can do that regardless of what the government deems legal or illegal to sell.

I really don't want people to take away from this that I think I'm better than anyone else or that I think I have all the answers. Life is a series of choices and we can ultimately only make those choices for ourselves. I can do all I've done and five years from now my son could become an addict. I don't think that will happen and I like to think that it is because I did it right. I really don't need the government limiting our freedom of choice to do my job as a parent.

I applaude you raising your son in a positive environment, but sometimes thats not enough. My brother is a heroin addict and we were raised in the same home, my father was not a drug addict, he did smoke and drink but never did drugs or had it in the home. But, in high school my brother was a big pothead and than later got into heroin, he said he could control it but he could not, one day my father came home and found that he sold everything in the house, fridge, coaches, beds, washers, etc EVERYTHING, to payback the credit he owed his drug dealer. Me and my brother are total opposites, I served 7 years in the Military and now hold a good job with the government, my brother dropped out of high school to do drugs, joined the Army but was sent back home in basic training because he tested positive for cocaine on the drug test, and is now serving time in Wasco State Penn in California for domestic violence, drug possession and various parole violations. Sometimes providing a good home is not enough.

True. Life is choices. All we can do as parents is point the right way and back it up by our example. But eventually, your children make their own choices and as painful as it is to watch, it is their choice. You can't change what they decide. My older brother was a pot head back in high school and I'm sure he did some harder stuff. At some point he grew out of it and turned back into a responsible and sensible person. He was married with two kids and finished his college education and has held a management position in a very large corporation for the past 30 years. Personal responsibility and freedom to choose.

Very true.

 

[JBeukema]

You guys are really comparing heroin to porn, booze and smokes?

Heroine and alcohol...


both are physically addictive


you can O.D. on both


in both cases, making them illegal created a huge black market and spawned brutal cartels and gangs that drove violent crime through the roof


both tend to abused by many people

....

so, please, explain to me how they're really so different

 

[High_Gravity]

You guys are really comparing heroin to porn, booze and smokes?

Heroine and alcohol...


both are physically addictive


you can O.D. on both


in both cases, making them illegal created a huge black market and spawned brutal cartels and gangs that drove violent crime through the roof


both tend to abused by many people

....

so, please, explain to me how they're really so different

There are people that can be social drinkers and only drink on special occasions, and than not drink again for like 6 months, how many people can take a hit of heroin and than go cold turkey for 6 months?

 

[Father Time]

You guys are really comparing heroin to porn, booze and smokes?

No I'm just saying that we don't have to let kids have it if we legalize it. Just like all those other things I mentioned.