Legalize Drugs, Why?

[geauxtohell]

I injured my back about seven years ago and the pain was off the charts. They prescribed pain killers progressively stronger until I was popping methadone like M & M's. I was thoroughly addicted while HAVING to take them for about 3 months then it took about three weeks to wean myself clean off them after my back healed. The addiction to opiates is over rated. Now cigarettes... That's a whole horse of a different color.

Over-rated for you perhaps, but your neurophysiology is not the same as the next man. It's the same reason while some people can drink alcohol in moderation their whole lives and other progress to addiction.

The medical establishment has inadvertently created a lot of addicts with pain pills. Most people can kick them, but some people get on them and never can.

 

[High_Gravity]

Legalizing drugs may take crime off the streets and people will be able to shoot up in their own homes but it still does not take away the damage that years of heroin, meth, crack etc. abuse will do to an addict, legalizing these things does not automatically fix everything for these people.

Once again, you're operating from premises that are false on their face, not the least of which that it's not gubmint's job to "fix" people.

What is false about what I said? when should I say the government should fix anything?

 

[Oddball]

That very well maybe, I havent met one though. I know a few people who are heroin addicts and they are barely hanging onto basic jobs like working at fast food to support their habits and shacking up with other addicts, I definently wouldn't consider them valuable members of society.

I can say that for some of the booze hounds I've worked with.

 

[geauxtohell]

The net gain for society is you no longer have completely innocent bystanders killed because of wars over drug selling territory. You don't have dipshits breaking into others houses to feed their habit, you don't have drug addled halfwits abusing their children because they are afraid to seek help. The list is a pretty long one if you just think about it.

You presume. By that logic, alcoholics never cause harm to society at the hands of their drug of choice.

That is not the case.

 

[High_Gravity]

That very well maybe, I havent met one though. I know a few people who are heroin addicts and they are barely hanging onto basic jobs like working at fast food to support their habits and shacking up with other addicts, I definently wouldn't consider them valuable members of society.

I can say that for some of the booze hounds I've worked with.

There are plenty of congressman, governors, Military commanders, professional athletes, doctors and lawyers who are alcoholics, how many heroin addicts are in prominent positions? heroin addicts may be do ok as Rock Stars or something but what else can they do?

 

[westwall]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

Narcan is only effective if you are able to find the person the person before their respiratory drive goes to 0.

It also doesn't deal with the problem of narcotics. It's just an antidote to overdose.

The problem is if it is a legal matter most will wait till it's too late to save them. If it is a purely medical issue there will be no issues there. As far as the other, who cares? I could give a flying f you know what what someone does in the privacy of their home. Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If you truly believe in this great country of ours then the Declaration of Independence and it's guarantee of the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness should actually mean something to you.

The main problem with illegal narcotics is as Huggy said, the vile stuff they have to do to feed the habit. Legalise the drugs and that whole paradigm changes overnight.

 

[del]

But, how do you educate someone on the proper amount of heroin or crystal meth to take?

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.

addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

 

[westwall]

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

Hitting someone with Narcan not only stops the high, it causes a 180 turn so that the person goes through withdrawal and people tend to go a little apeshit when they get it. They try to avoid it unless it's absolutely necessary.

The real problem with opiates is the addictive potential they have. People that are hooked have a hard time kicking it. Legality isn't going to change that. The hallmark of addiction/dependence is using a substance regardless of negative consequences to include loss of job, family, etc. Chemical addiction is real. It's not simply a matter of being "weak". Legalizing opiates only removes criminal sanctions for an addict. It doesn't change the fact that people that are addicted to opiates are non-productive.

I don't think we need to contribute to social Darwinism in the name of individual liberty.

First off individual liberty is a cornerstone of the founding of this country. What ever someone wants to do to themselves is none of your business. The only concern that we should have is that people do no harm to others. Legalising drugs removes a tremendous amount of harm to others. And, if the addicts decide to go straight, they have a leg up because they are no longer considered criminals but ill.

 

[geauxtohell]

The problem is if it is a legal matter most will wait till it's too late to save them. If it is a purely medical issue there will be no issues there. As far as the other, who cares? I could give a flying f you know what what someone does in the privacy of their home. Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If you truly believe in this great country of ours then the Declaration of Independence and it's guarantee of the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness should actually mean something to you.

The main problem with illegal narcotics is as Huggy said, the vile stuff they have to do to feed the habit. Legalise the drugs and that whole paradigm changes overnight.

I am someone who never bought into the libertarian fantasy-land.

Again, you guys presume all the ill-effects of drugs is due to the criminality of the matter, because that's the most immediate and tangible issue.

However, the larger problem are the substances themselves which are highly addictive and destroy lives.

I can buy the: "Individuals have the right to **** up their lives" to an extent. However, it's fair for society as a whole to ask: what benefit is this to us as a whole?

I have no desire for America to become a paradigm of Brave New World and for everyone to have their own "soma".

 

[High_Gravity]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.

addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

I heard that alcohol causes more damage but I never understood that, how can beer cause more damage to a person than heroin or crack?

 

[HUGGY]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

Narcan is only effective if you are able to find the person the person before their respiratory drive goes to 0.

It also doesn't deal with the problem of narcotics. It's just an antidote to overdose.

The problem is if it is a legal matter most will wait till it's too late to save them. If it is a purely medical issue there will be no issues there. As far as the other, who cares? I could give a flying f you know what what someone does in the privacy of their home. Who are you to tell them what they can and can't do? If you truly believe in this great country of ours then the Declaration of Independence and it's guarantee of the rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness should actually mean something to you.

The main problem with illegal narcotics is as Huggy said, the vile stuff they have to do to feed the habit. Legalise the drugs and that whole paradigm changes overnight.

This is a man that is clear on the founders intent! Good for you! You just pegged my respect meter!

 

[geauxtohell]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.

addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

I agree that alcohol is more dangerous to society. However, I would argue that is simply because of access as it is legal. This is the point that I think many of us are making.

Is it a hypocritical double standard that alcohol is legal and other drugs are illegal? You bet. However, the genie is out of the bottle with alcohol. You can't put it back.

 

[High_Gravity]

You don't. You educate them on what the signs of toxicity are. What to do when the signs emerge and most importantly when it is no longer a legal issue they will be far more likely to call for help. A simple shot of Narcan deals with a heroin overdose...provided the paramedics get there to administer it.

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.
addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

I have had a few alcoholic incidents and people have told me I am an alcoholic but, I am able to stop drinking after 1 beer and I am very strict that If I drink a few beers I do not drive, so I guess I'm not an alcoholic.

 

[westwall]

If someone is addicted to heroin or crystal meth their lives are pretty much ruined whether they are caught or not.

No they're not. There are lots of functional heroin addicts who go about their lives and no one knows who or what they suffer from.

There is an upper limit to functionality for a heroin addict that is significantly lower than a sober person.

Eventually the addiction catches up with you. Again, look at what happened with Methadone.

It was supposed to be a magic cure for heroin addiction. In the end people just traded one addiction for the other. The only benefit of methadone is that users avoid the needle and the criminal side in order to get their fix.

That being said, you don't see many productive members of society who are regulars at the methadone clinic.

I have many friends in law enforcement. One is a special agent for Californias Bureau of Narcotics Enforecment and he will disagree with you. He knows many people (I actually met one of them once) who have been heroin addicts since the 1960's. They live in San Francisco and hold down good jobs. They are intelligent and are able to control their addiction because they educated themselves and know how to.

There are plenty of people on serious pain meds who also hold down regular high paying jobs. They have legal prescriptions and must use the drugs because of injury not addiction. I am sure they would be very surprised to hear that they are incapable of functioning normally.

 

[del]

But, as soon as you inject heroin its pretty much too late to try and stop the high right? I mean using heroin is not like sitting there and drinking beer after beer, you can always stop drinking after a certain amount but once you inject that needle how can you go back?

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.
addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

I have had a few alcoholic incidents and people have told me I am an alcoholic but, I am able to stop drinking after 1 beer and I am very strict that If I drink a few beers I do not drive, so I guess I'm not an alcoholic.

i wasn't implying that you are.

 

[High_Gravity]

not everyone can do that, we call ourselves alcoholics.
addicts aren't any different than alcoholics in that there is something inside of them that drives the need to change how they feel. it isn't the drug that causes the addiction; it's the person using it, imo. there are probably people that could use heroin *socially*.

personally, i think it's foolish to allow one recreational drug (alcohol) to be legal and all the others are illegal when alcohol far and away causes more damage and misery to society.

I have had a few alcoholic incidents and people have told me I am an alcoholic but, I am able to stop drinking after 1 beer and I am very strict that If I drink a few beers I do not drive, so I guess I'm not an alcoholic.

i wasn't implying that you are.

I know you weren't.

 

[geauxtohell]

First off individual liberty is a cornerstone of the founding of this country. What ever someone wants to do to themselves is none of your business. The only concern that we should have is that people do no harm to others. Legalising drugs removes a tremendous amount of harm to others. And, if the addicts decide to go straight, they have a leg up because they are no longer considered criminals but ill.

Eventually, as people become consumed with addiction and society suffers as a whole because of it, it becomes all of our business.

Again, you guys are acting like the only problem with addictive substances is that we choose to make them illegal. That's a niave way to think of the matter.

You don't run into many people who will say: "Gee, I am really glad I discovered heroin!"

I agree that dependence/addiction is a medical problem. I don't agree that the solution to the problem is to make it easier for society as a whole to gain access.

 

[westwall]

That is the case though. Of course there are allways going to be a few who go on to harder things. But the majority won't and if the stuff is legal you don't see a lot of meth use because the cocaine (especially pure) is actually cheaper to get, give a better effect and in general has no bad side effects.

If you have a choice of buying moonshine from some garage operation or fine whiskey from a store with a government stamp on it...and the good stuff is cheaper, why would you ever buy the crap that can kill you?

That's not really true.

Meth has a much longer half life than cocaine and, while also a stimulant, it has different effects than Cocaine.

Their mechanism of action on the brain is similar, but not exactly the same.

Yes but pure coke is MUCH cheaper than Meth. And it has no immediate bad side effects.

 

[geauxtohell]

I have many friends in law enforcement. One is a special agent for Californias Bureau of Narcotics Enforecment and he will disagree with you. He knows many people (I actually met one of them once) who have been heroin addicts since the 1960's. They live in San Francisco and hold down good jobs. They are intelligent and are able to control their addiction because they educated themselves and know how to.

There are plenty of people on serious pain meds who also hold down regular high paying jobs. They have legal prescriptions and must use the drugs because of injury not addiction. I am sure they would be very surprised to hear that they are incapable of functioning normally.

Perhaps my view is confounded as I see all the people in the hospital who weren't able to hold down their habits and function in society.

So tit for tat.

In the end, what benefit is it to society (other than satisfying some flowery language like "This is what the founders intended! Everyone has the right to destroy their lives!") to legalize substances that are highly addictive and carry the potential for acute overdose?

People that use oral pain meds to control pain for long periods of time are using them out of addiction and not to simply control pain. They probably just don't realize it. There are some people who need to be on narcotics in perpetuity due to a chronic pain state (i.e. people with Sickle Cell Anemia). However, many people who have a five year Lortab habit (in which they have gone from 5 to 7.5 to 10 mg) are addicted. Their body sends a pain signal when they need their drug, because that is how addiction and withdrawal works.

 

[westwall]

The net gain for society is you no longer have completely innocent bystanders killed because of wars over drug selling territory. You don't have dipshits breaking into others houses to feed their habit, you don't have drug addled halfwits abusing their children because they are afraid to seek help. The list is a pretty long one if you just think about it.

You don't have dangerous meth labs literally destroying houses on contact from the airborne toxins, and subsequently endangering entire neighborhoods....The list goes on and on....

Or just flat out exploding. Meth labs, when they go, up are pretty spectacular.