Lakota break away from US

[M14 Shooter]

I understand that it would be unlikely to happen but it is nice to imagine that perhaps some congressmen would consider the situation from an ethical and moral perspective and side with the Indians – allowing then to create their own nation.

As if a few congressmen could do that.

The more likely approach will be the power one – the erroneous notion that might makes right.

Tell that to the Confederacy.

 

[mattskramer]

As if a few congressmen could do that.

Do you mean to say, "as if a congressman would do that?" It there any law or physical handicap that prevents a congressman from advocating that the Indians be allowed their own nation? Would the constitution have to be changed? If so, would it be impossible to change the Constitution?

Tell that to the Confederacy.

It was wrong for the Confederacy (southern states) to break away as they did. It is my understanding that they, in a sense, made a treaty-like agreement with the federal government. The federal government did not break the treaty, therefore, the confederacy had no ethical right to break away.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Do you mean to say, "as if a congressman would do that?" It there any law or physical handicap that prevents a congressman from advocating that the Indians be allowed their own nation?

Nope. But you need more than just a few, and you need FAR more than a few congressmen to change the Constitution. Conversely, if the indians decide to openly rebel, you dont need ANY congressmen to put them down.

It was wrong for the Confederacy (southern states) to break away as they did.

Nothing in the constitutioon prevents a state from withdrawing from the union, and as such, their their right to do so is preserved by the 10th amendmemnt.

What, other than might, made right?

 

[mattskramer]

Nope. But you need more than just a few, and you need FAR more than a few congressmen to change the Constitution. Conversely, if the indians decide to openly rebel, you dont need ANY congressmen to put them down.


Nothing in the constitutioon prevents a state from withdrawing from the union, and as such, their their right to do so is preserved by the 10th amendmemnt.

Okay. Gee. I never thought of it like that. So the south had the legal right to secede per the 10th Amendment. So the mighty federation was wrong in forcing the states to stay united with it. One way or another, one side was wrong and imposed its will by force upon another. I just think that since the Indians were here first and since we broke treaties with them, they are within their right to secede. We will put a halt to it, rightfully or wrongfully, if their actions go too far.

What, other than might, made right?

Keeping your word and sticking to an agreement makes right, provided that you were not forced to sign such an agreement, is right.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Okay. Gee. I never thought of it like that. So the south had the legal right to secede per the 10th Amendment. So the mighty federation was wrong in forcing the states to stay united with it. One way or another, one side was wrong and imposed its will by force upon another.

You are correct -- Might made right. Just like I said.

I just think that since the Indians were here first and since we broke treaties with them, they are within their right to secede.

And, for whatever reason, you fail to see that the US government, absoultely, has a right to put down their rebellion.

 

[mattskramer]

You are correct -- Might made right. Just like I said.

Not at all. The North was successful in defeating the South. That does not make what the North did right. Might often works. The physically more powerful side often defeats the weaker side by force. That does not make it right. Just because someone is able to snatch a purse from a little old lady, does not mean that successful purse-snatching is right.

And, for whatever reason, you fail to see that the US government, absoultely, has a right to put down their rebellion.

No. The more powerful federal government ignored its original treaty and then used force to have the Indians sign another treaty. Contracts signed under duress do not stand up in court. Therefore, the current treaty that the Indians have with us should be nullified.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Not at all. The North was successful in defeating the South. That does not make what the North did right.

the issue was settled by force, and has never been addressed any other way.
Was the North wrong in not letting the South go?

No. The more powerful federal government ignored its original treaty and then used force to have the Indians sign another treaty.

None of that on any way removes the right of the fed4ral government to put down a rebellion.

What you fail to see is that, when both sides (supposedly) have a right to do what they are doing, the ensuing conflict will be resolved through force.

Contracts signed under duress do not stand up in court

What do you suppose a court decision is, if not force?

 

[KissMy]

We'll just send some troops to put them down -- like in the good ol' days.

Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality

 

[SAYIT]

You try to secede from the union, you get your comeuppance.
I thought that was established long ago?

The Lakota nation is not a State in the union.


Indeed, their ANCIENT CLAIM to the land is undisputed. we're talking THOUSANDS OF YEARS here, man. How can you deny them a sovereign nation considering their HISTORIC presence on that land for THOUSANDS of years? Surely you do not mean to suggest that we'd strike against a created nation on our own land with violence, eh?

(winky winky, Jillian!)

Legally it gets weird. They can renounce their citizenship but then they won't be able to vote and any attempt to violently take control of state or local gov'ts would result in a violent response.
They still have the right to govern themselves but if they leave the country on a Lakota passport they might not be able to re-enter the country. Weird.

 

[longknife]

by Grim @ Grim's Hall: Lakota Nation Secedes

For the last hundred years or so, we've engaged in a political fiction in which we treated the Native American Nations as sovereign, and they pretended they believed we really meant it. The Lakota Nation has chosen to call that bluff.

It happens that Aaron Two Elk, whom I mentioned recently, was Oglala Lakota. I'm sure he would be proud today. What we must watch is how the US government responds. In the past it hasn't taken movements of this type seriously; it may (and indeed will likely) simply ignore the declaration. What the Lakota Nation does in response, and what we do in response to that, will be interesting to watch.

With the treatment they've received, it's a miracle every Native American tribe hasn't done the same!!!

 

[ScienceRocks]

I wish they would all secede as I'd love to see them keep a high standard of living without us. When they secede is when they can prove themselves right or wrong.

It's always the white man being hated. Now prove that you can create a civilization worth the shit. Show me that you can bring your people up.

 

[sealadaigh]

Endorsers of Free Palestine Movement

American Indian Movement West
AIM WEST

Free Palestine Movement

 

[sealadaigh]

Means said the "annexation" of native American land had turned the Lakota into "facsimiles of white people."

In 1974, the Lakota drafted a declaration of continuing independence. Their cause got a boost in September, when the United Nations adopted a non-binding declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. The Bush administration opposed the measure.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

he also said...

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

American Indian Movement on Palestine | KABOBfest

 

[blastoff]

Secede mean heap big trouble for Lakota.

 

[Sallow]

Secede mean heap big trouble for Lakota.

 

[eflatminor]

With the treatment they've received, it's a miracle every Native American tribe hasn't done the same!!!

By "treatment", are you referring to massive government entitlements? Hasn't worked out so well for those Indians on the dole. Those Indians NOT on the dole...they're doing just fine.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Ey_g4wOnw]Stossel Indians - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Hossfly]

Means said the "annexation" of native American land had turned the Lakota into "facsimiles of white people."

In 1974, the Lakota drafted a declaration of continuing independence. Their cause got a boost in September, when the United Nations adopted a non-binding declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. The Bush administration opposed the measure.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

he also said...

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

American Indian Movement on Palestine | KABOBfest

There are also Native Americans who are for Israel. I remember reading posts by Goldeneagles, a Navajo, who was for Israel and other posters who were part Native American like the Crimson Zephyr. And then there are others like those mentioned below.

Zionism, Native American Style
Posted on July 24, 2007 by xenohistorian
Today is Tisha b’Av, the 9th of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Although it is not an official holiday, Jews observe it because they believe the destruction of the First and Second Temples, the exile of their community from Spain (1492), and several other tragic events all occurred on this date.

In my history papers, I told a story about Napoleon Bonaparte passing a crowded synagogue on the 9th of Av, and he heard the sound of weeping. Asking what was going on, he was told that the Jews were mourning the loss of their country and sanctuary some 1800 years before. Deeply moved, Napoleon observed that “a people which weeps and mourns for the loss of its homeland 1800 years ago and does not forget–such a people will never be destroyed. Such a people can rest assured that its homeland will be returned to it.”

On that note, I got a bit of happy news this morning. This week Christians United For Israel, a group formed last year by San Antonio pastor John Hagee, is holding its second annual pro-Israel conference in Washington, D.C. Among those present are members of a group you don’t normally hear from when Israel is in the news — the American Indians. Anyway, here is the story:

Coming to Washington D.C. to attend the Christians United for Israel (CUFI) summit has been an eye-opener in many ways. While all (except for a few rabbis here and there) are Evangelical Christians, the CUFI delegates hail from all over the country, and from more varied ethnic, racial, and occupational backgrounds than I would have expected. Also, there are a lot of them: apparently, the size of the CUFI Summit has doubled since last year, from about 2500 to 5000.

It is touching to witness this outpouring of love and support for Israel. Today I met Antonio and Vestal Smith, a beautiful young Native American couple from Lapwai, Idaho. Newly married and co-pastors of a church in their town, they are members of the Nez Perce tribe who spoke at length about the kinship they feel with the people of Israel.

They also discussed ways in which media coverage distorts some Americans’ perceptions of Israel.

“As members of a small nation, we know what it is like to stand alone,” Antonio told me. “We want [the people of Israel] to know that even if we aren’t on the front lines, someone supports you, someone loves you, someone believes in you, you are not alone.”

He and others in his tribe identify with Israelis, he said, as “people of the land.”

His wife Vestal weighed in as well, explaining that in her view, the precariousness of Jewish existence as indigenous people in the Middle East is similar to the historical precariousness of Native Americans’ existence in the U.S.

“We can look at the Jewish people and see the similarity—of being a whole people or group, and someone is trying to completely wipe them out,” she said.

As to how she came by her views, Vestal spoke of her father, who told her of Israel, “If the United States will stand by G-d’s people, this country will be blessed, and if we turn our backs from Israel, the blessings will fall away.”

What about the Palestinians?

They have their side of the story, but an accurate understanding depends on where you start telling the story, and how you tell it – something Antonio believes the U.S. and international media do poorly.

“The media is skewed [against Israel]” he says, and doesn’t enhance understanding of the bigger picture. “Just like, if all you did was watch media, you would see us as the poor, pitiful Indians. They don’t realize there are lots of us who are doing just fine.”

I’ll say.

Tonight is the “Night to Honor Israel” a banquet at which thousands of CUFI delegates will gather and celebrate.

 

[sealadaigh]

Means said the "annexation" of native American land had turned the Lakota into "facsimiles of white people."

In 1974, the Lakota drafted a declaration of continuing independence. Their cause got a boost in September, when the United Nations adopted a non-binding declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. The Bush administration opposed the measure.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

he also said...

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

American Indian Movement on Palestine | KABOBfest

There are also Native Americans who are for Israel. I remember reading posts by Goldeneagles, a Navajo, who was for Israel and other posters who were part Native American like the Crimson Zephyr. And then there are others like those mentioned below.

Zionism, Native American Style
Posted on July 24, 2007 by xenohistorian
Today is Tisha b’Av, the 9th of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Although it is not an official holiday, Jews observe it because they believe the destruction of the First and Second Temples, the exile of their community from Spain (1492), and several other tragic events all occurred on this date.

In my history papers, I told a story about Napoleon Bonaparte passing a crowded synagogue on the 9th of Av, and he heard the sound of weeping. Asking what was going on, he was told that the Jews were mourning the loss of their country and sanctuary some 1800 years before. Deeply moved, Napoleon observed that “a people which weeps and mourns for the loss of its homeland 1800 years ago and does not forget–such a people will never be destroyed. Such a people can rest assured that its homeland will be returned to it.”

On that note, I got a bit of happy news this morning. This week Christians United For Israel, a group formed last year by San Antonio pastor John Hagee, is holding its second annual pro-Israel conference in Washington, D.C. Among those present are members of a group you don’t normally hear from when Israel is in the news — the American Indians. Anyway, here is the story:

Coming to Washington D.C. to attend the Christians United for Israel (CUFI) summit has been an eye-opener in many ways. While all (except for a few rabbis here and there) are Evangelical Christians, the CUFI delegates hail from all over the country, and from more varied ethnic, racial, and occupational backgrounds than I would have expected. Also, there are a lot of them: apparently, the size of the CUFI Summit has doubled since last year, from about 2500 to 5000.

It is touching to witness this outpouring of love and support for Israel. Today I met Antonio and Vestal Smith, a beautiful young Native American couple from Lapwai, Idaho. Newly married and co-pastors of a church in their town, they are members of the Nez Perce tribe who spoke at length about the kinship they feel with the people of Israel.

They also discussed ways in which media coverage distorts some Americans’ perceptions of Israel.

“As members of a small nation, we know what it is like to stand alone,” Antonio told me. “We want [the people of Israel] to know that even if we aren’t on the front lines, someone supports you, someone loves you, someone believes in you, you are not alone.”

He and others in his tribe identify with Israelis, he said, as “people of the land.”

His wife Vestal weighed in as well, explaining that in her view, the precariousness of Jewish existence as indigenous people in the Middle East is similar to the historical precariousness of Native Americans’ existence in the U.S.

“We can look at the Jewish people and see the similarity—of being a whole people or group, and someone is trying to completely wipe them out,” she said.

As to how she came by her views, Vestal spoke of her father, who told her of Israel, “If the United States will stand by G-d’s people, this country will be blessed, and if we turn our backs from Israel, the blessings will fall away.”

What about the Palestinians?

They have their side of the story, but an accurate understanding depends on where you start telling the story, and how you tell it – something Antonio believes the U.S. and international media do poorly.

“The media is skewed [against Israel]” he says, and doesn’t enhance understanding of the bigger picture. “Just like, if all you did was watch media, you would see us as the poor, pitiful Indians. They don’t realize there are lots of us who are doing just fine.”

I’ll say.

Tonight is the “Night to Honor Israel” a banquet at which thousands of CUFI delegates will gather and celebrate.

john hagee...lol.

goldeneagles...lol.

crimson zephyr...lol.

careful there, fly. i know this good ol' gal who lives out in the panhandle just shy of the res to the north. i gave her a call and mentioned ol' antonio and vestal and she broke out laughing and said..."where did you hear of those apples?" we talked.

sure, "There are also Native Americans who are for Israel" but they are pretty few and far between. i think the indians pretty much tolerate their "christian brothers" but that is about as far as it goes because when they were out west here, when they were thumping their bibles, it was usually upside the head of some young, red heathen to smack his tongue out so he wouldn't talk the ddevils lamguage.

bottom line, fly, i think i am gonna have to go with the cat from AIM as a representative of the indigenous peoples before i go with some christian indian snake charmer who took the fat.

 

[Hossfly]

he also said...

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

American Indian Movement on Palestine | KABOBfest

There are also Native Americans who are for Israel. I remember reading posts by Goldeneagles, a Navajo, who was for Israel and other posters who were part Native American like the Crimson Zephyr. And then there are others like those mentioned below.

Zionism, Native American Style
Posted on July 24, 2007 by xenohistorian
Today is Tisha b’Av, the 9th of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Although it is not an official holiday, Jews observe it because they believe the destruction of the First and Second Temples, the exile of their community from Spain (1492), and several other tragic events all occurred on this date.

In my history papers, I told a story about Napoleon Bonaparte passing a crowded synagogue on the 9th of Av, and he heard the sound of weeping. Asking what was going on, he was told that the Jews were mourning the loss of their country and sanctuary some 1800 years before. Deeply moved, Napoleon observed that “a people which weeps and mourns for the loss of its homeland 1800 years ago and does not forget–such a people will never be destroyed. Such a people can rest assured that its homeland will be returned to it.”

On that note, I got a bit of happy news this morning. This week Christians United For Israel, a group formed last year by San Antonio pastor John Hagee, is holding its second annual pro-Israel conference in Washington, D.C. Among those present are members of a group you don’t normally hear from when Israel is in the news — the American Indians. Anyway, here is the story:

Coming to Washington D.C. to attend the Christians United for Israel (CUFI) summit has been an eye-opener in many ways. While all (except for a few rabbis here and there) are Evangelical Christians, the CUFI delegates hail from all over the country, and from more varied ethnic, racial, and occupational backgrounds than I would have expected. Also, there are a lot of them: apparently, the size of the CUFI Summit has doubled since last year, from about 2500 to 5000.

It is touching to witness this outpouring of love and support for Israel. Today I met Antonio and Vestal Smith, a beautiful young Native American couple from Lapwai, Idaho. Newly married and co-pastors of a church in their town, they are members of the Nez Perce tribe who spoke at length about the kinship they feel with the people of Israel.

They also discussed ways in which media coverage distorts some Americans’ perceptions of Israel.

“As members of a small nation, we know what it is like to stand alone,” Antonio told me. “We want [the people of Israel] to know that even if we aren’t on the front lines, someone supports you, someone loves you, someone believes in you, you are not alone.”

He and others in his tribe identify with Israelis, he said, as “people of the land.”

His wife Vestal weighed in as well, explaining that in her view, the precariousness of Jewish existence as indigenous people in the Middle East is similar to the historical precariousness of Native Americans’ existence in the U.S.

“We can look at the Jewish people and see the similarity—of being a whole people or group, and someone is trying to completely wipe them out,” she said.

As to how she came by her views, Vestal spoke of her father, who told her of Israel, “If the United States will stand by G-d’s people, this country will be blessed, and if we turn our backs from Israel, the blessings will fall away.”

What about the Palestinians?

They have their side of the story, but an accurate understanding depends on where you start telling the story, and how you tell it – something Antonio believes the U.S. and international media do poorly.

“The media is skewed [against Israel]” he says, and doesn’t enhance understanding of the bigger picture. “Just like, if all you did was watch media, you would see us as the poor, pitiful Indians. They don’t realize there are lots of us who are doing just fine.”

I’ll say.

Tonight is the “Night to Honor Israel” a banquet at which thousands of CUFI delegates will gather and celebrate.

john hagee...lol.

goldeneagles...lol.

crimson zephyr...lol.

careful there, fly. i know this good ol' gal who lives out in the panhandle just shy of the res to the north. i gave her a call and mentioned ol' antonio and vestal and she broke out laughing and said..."where did you hear of those apples?" we talked.

sure, "There are also Native Americans who are for Israel" but they are pretty few and far between. i think the indians pretty much tolerate their "christian brothers" but that is about as far as it goes because when they were out west here, when they were thumping their bibles, it was usually upside the head of some young, red heathen to smack his tongue out so he wouldn't talk the ddevils lamguage.

bottom line, fly, i think i am gonna have to go with the cat from AIM as a representative of the indigenous peoples before i go with some christian indian snake charmer who took the fat.

Laugh like a fool all you want at Native Americans who posted on message boards and who exhibited much more intelligence and mental stability than you or the Native Americans who attended this meeting. Meanwhile, I hope you are contributing to St. Joseph's. The Lakotas will be very grateful, and will send you a coup[e of nice keychains with feathers, some notepaper with their symbols on it plus a page of address labels. No doubt you can scrounge up a few bucks to help them out.
Make a difference for Lakota children - St. Joseph's Indian School

 

[crowfeather]

With the treatment they've received, it's a miracle every Native American tribe hasn't done the same!!!

By "treatment", are you referring to massive government entitlements? Hasn't worked out so well for those Indians on the dole. Those Indians NOT on the dole...they're doing just fine.

Oh really?? They're doing just fine ehhh? Read these statistics about Pine Ridge and tell me they are doing "just fine." We are a strong people and racism does not promote anything. It only tells how evil you are towards others. But here are the stats:
___________________________________________________________________
The Republic of Lakota described ongoing genocide as follows:

(1) Mortality

Life expectancy for Lakota men is less than 44 years. It's the lowest of all sovereign countries. It's the highest in America. Infant mortality is threefold higher than the US average. Diseases are a major problem. "Cancer is now at epidemic proportions."

Teenage suicide is150% higher than America's average. One-fourth of Lakota children are fostered or adopted by non-Native people. Doing so destroys their identity and culture. Ward Churchill calls it killing the Indian, saving the man.

(2) Disease

Tuberculosis is 800% higher than America's average. Cervical cancer is fivefold higher. Diabetes is eight times the national average. The Federal Commodity Food Program provides high-sugar foods. They contribute to poor health.

(3) Poverty

Annual median income is $2,600 - $3,500. Poverty affects 97% of Lakotans. Many families can't afford essentials most people take for granted. In winter, many use ovens for heat. Simple luxuries are unheard of. Life is hard, merciless, punishing, and unrelenting.

(4) Unemployment

It's 80% or higher. Government corruption, cronyism, and indifference destroy normal living opportunities.

(5) Housing

In winter, elderly people die from hypothermia. They freeze to death for lack of heat. One-third of homes lack clean water and sewage. About 40% have no electricity. About 60% of families have no telephone.

Another 60% of homes are infected with potentially fatal black molds. On average, 17 people reside in each household. Many have two to three rooms. Some homes built for six to eight people have up to 30 in them.

(6) Drugs and Alcohol

Over half of adults battle addiction and disease. Alcoholism affects 90% of families. Two known methamphetamine labs operate. Authorities haven't closed them.

(7) Incarceration

Indian children imprisonment exceed whites by 40%. Native People comprise 2% of South Dakota's population. They account for 21% of those imprisoned.

Indians have the second highest state prison incarceration rate in America. Most live on federal reservations. Less than 2% are where states have jurisdiction.

(8) Culture

It's threatened with extinction. It's federal policy to destroy it. Only 14% of Lakotans speak their language. It's not shared inter-generationally.

The average fluent Lakotan speaker is 65 years old. In another generation or less, perhaps few or none will remain. Lakotan language skills aren't allowed or taught in US government schools. Nor is much of anything about native history and culture. America wants it destroyed and forgotten.

Lakotan struggle began with the 1803 Louisiana Purchase. They call it "fantasy" US history. France sold America 530 million Native land acres for $15 million. Lakotans owned part of it. They and other Native people weren't consulted.

They've been systematically ignored and violated. From 1778 - 1871, Washington negotiated 372 treaties. Their provisions were systematically spurned.

America's winning the West involved invading, encroaching, stealing, and occupying their lands. That's how imperialism works. It's the same everywhere.