Laid Off

[Marxist]

I have been looking through them, they don't contain data sets. but i will keep reading through it. Have you read it? What should I be looking for? Can you reference anything from the specific text that would answer my question directly? the difference between us here is that I actually have evidence that capitalism can work quite well and lead to stable governance systems and provide benefits for people living within the state and a comfortable standard of living. You live in such a society yourself.

I have evidence that anarchism/socialism can work quite well,

So i guess I can re-phrase, what specific evidence outside of ideological pontification do you have that it works "quite well"? Because I have a lot of data sets that show that it doesn't tend to work well at all.

Free Ukraine, the Paris commune, worker coops, revolutionary Catalonia.. Again, it's hard when they're the only examples of actual Socialism without a ruling state entity.

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

Of course not.. what he espouses has a 100% failure rate. How many have died under communism? 100,000,000+?

It doesn't have a... Ugh, at least I know osomir is intelligent enough to know that China/Russia never had actual communism.

 

[Osomir]

I have been looking through them, they don't contain data sets. but i will keep reading through it. Have you read it? What should I be looking for? Can you reference anything from the specific text that would answer my question directly? the difference between us here is that I actually have evidence that capitalism can work quite well and lead to stable governance systems and provide benefits for people living within the state and a comfortable standard of living. You live in such a society yourself.

I have evidence that anarchism/socialism can work quite well,

So i guess I can re-phrase, what specific evidence outside of ideological pontification do you have that it works "quite well"? Because I have a lot of data sets that show that it doesn't tend to work well at all.

Free Ukraine, the Paris commune, worker coops, revolutionary Catalonia.. Again, it's hard when they're the only examples of actual Socialism without a ruling state entity.

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and led to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for. you don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating.

 

[Marxist]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

I have evidence that anarchism/socialism can work quite well,

So i guess I can re-phrase, what specific evidence outside of ideological pontification do you have that it works "quite well"? Because I have a lot of data sets that show that it doesn't tend to work well at all.

Free Ukraine, the Paris commune, worker coops, revolutionary Catalonia.. Again, it's hard when they're the only examples of actual Socialism without a ruling state entity.

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

 

[Osomir]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

So i guess I can re-phrase, what specific evidence outside of ideological pontification do you have that it works "quite well"? Because I have a lot of data sets that show that it doesn't tend to work well at all.

Free Ukraine, the Paris commune, worker coops, revolutionary Catalonia.. Again, it's hard when they're the only examples of actual Socialism without a ruling state entity.

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it's just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

 

[Marxist]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

Free Ukraine, the Paris commune, worker coops, revolutionary Catalonia.. Again, it's hard when they're the only examples of actual Socialism without a ruling state entity.

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

 

[Osomir]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

Simply listing them doesn't in any way support your hypothesis that they work quite well. Can you support that claim?

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

 

[Marxist]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

They are the only examples of socialism without a state, and pardon me for not linking everything right now, on mobile and it's a pain in the ass, so my responses may be slow. The documentation is also not very much for the events considering they were violently crushed and were slandered by the likes of the Bolsheviks.
History of the Paris Commune

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

They did work well though, it's why the people did not riot and fail to provide for each other, it's why they purposefully advocated for the system, it's why their is no documented starvation, it's why The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.
I don't think it's fair to judge the viability of a system based on military attacks against them when they had a strong military force. I've given you literature, their are countless pieces I can refer you to. If you want a dataset, find me a dataset on something else from russia in the time not related to the bolsheviks.

 

[Osomir]

in their own enterprises / jobs and lead t

That's fine I'll wait. I am familiar with the Paris Commune, the trouble is that it was so short lived that it isn't likely to provide useful information. That being said, you don't need a truly stateless system in order to analyze the potential effectiveness of the individual components of the society that you are picturing. So say Libya might not be a perfect example, but since the government wasn't interested in the more local level politicking since it was content to enrich itself through oil revenues, it did leave a lot of that governance up to people's congresses particularly in the 80s and we saw a legal institution based on arbitrariness and a drying up of investment as a result. Same went with the controlling of wealth where no one was allowed to have more than 1000 dinars. This eliminated incentive for people to invest in their own enterprises / jobs and lead to an economy that produced very little (many people simply chose not to work at all). Likewise we can analyze things like the effectiveness of agricultural systems based on farmers communes because we can access relatively sound data for such enterprises across multiple states that have practiced it (like my example of Tanzania). That is the kind of supporting evidence that I am looking for.

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

They did work well though, it's why the people did not riot and fail to provide for each other, it's why they purposefully advocated for the system, it's why their is no documented starvation, it's why The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.
I don't think it's fair to judge the viability of a system based on military attacks against them when they had a strong military force. I've given you literature, their are countless pieces I can refer you to. If you want a dataset, find me a dataset on something else from russia in the time not related to the bolsheviks.

All that is is an unsubstantiated opinion. Literally. I'm not trying to be mean, but unfortunately that's what it is. You say that worker communes work well, well I have specific data sets that showcase worker communes working horribly across multiple different countries. I still deal with it on a regular basis in places like Malawi where customary law sets can stipulate communal ownership through a localized tribal leader or council. It works so far in that it exists and can continue to do so. But that isn't evidence that it works well. Instead, it tends to be heavily damaging to productivity and heavily stifling to investments which cause it to get left behind privately owned enterprises. Can you point to any aspect of your proposed society that is currently working well anywhere?

 

[Osomir]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

 

[Marxist]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

 

[Marxist]

The problem is, states inherently corrupt the ideas I follow, and I refuse to examine a society where a state has control over what the citizens are doing with their production or whatever, such as in Libya.The whole concept of incentive has always existed, it may just be that libya isn't really one of the best places in general. The problem is, the documentation you're looking for isn't readily available unless I dig up some untranslated texts, the bolsheviks/the french army shut down and destroyed the people in the societies I talk about, so I can't really give that to you. I think I've said this. It may also be that no one is interested in them to do adequate work.

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

They did work well though, it's why the people did not riot and fail to provide for each other, it's why they purposefully advocated for the system, it's why their is no documented starvation, it's why The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.
I don't think it's fair to judge the viability of a system based on military attacks against them when they had a strong military force. I've given you literature, their are countless pieces I can refer you to. If you want a dataset, find me a dataset on something else from russia in the time not related to the bolsheviks.

All that is is an unsubstantiated opinion. Literally. I'm not trying to be mean, but unfortunately that's what it is. You say that worker communes work well, well I have specific data sets that showcase worker communes working horribly across multiple different countries. I still deal with it on a regular basis in places like Malawi where customary law sets can stipulate communal ownership through a localized tribal leader or council. It works so far in that it exists and can continue to do so. But that isn't evidence that it works well. Instead, it tends to be heavily damaging to productivity and heavily stifling to investments which cause it to get left behind privately owned enterprises. Can you point to any aspect of your proposed society that is currently working well anywhere?

It's not unsubstantiated.. but whatever you want to think. They do work well, although I'd expect a capitalist mode to work better when capitalists control massive technologies and distribution methods, primarily. Malawi? That's not a good example, I'm not sure malawi is a good example.... So it does work? If the citizens are doing fine, what's the problem? No, probably not, unless you want to count worker coops.

 

[Osomir]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

 

[Marxist]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

You assume that a anarchist system wouldn't have any sort of protections from tyranny or crime, that is flat our false. It does have guarantees.
Anarchist decision-making models are deliberative, participatory, and consensus-based. People develop solutions together and make compromises if need be. It is not usually simply yes or no with majority rules. Anarchist decision-making also tries to limit itself, the entire community should ideally not have a collective position on every little thing. Instead, there is plurality and autonomy, people and groups can do things their own way, so 'tyranny' is unlikely to result.
Also, if someone doesn't want to obey, they don't have to, only the people who voted and agree with each other should participate in what is done.

 

[Osomir]

You don't need to give me a perfectly working model, just demonstrate the physical viability of the core principles of what you're postulating. Having analyzed datasets before it is a bit fallacious to insinuate that you can't possibly analyze any of your ideas through the use of real world data. The fact of the matter is that you aren't the first one to have ideas like this and while the system as a whole may not have been implemented we can certainly see examples of aspects of it being implemented throughout history. Unfortunately if you can't find such supporting evidence then your previous assertion that it would absolutely work isn't very meaningful as it is nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I'm not trying to be mean on that point, it just that I have standards for such positives claims and it takes more than passion to convince me.

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To date, the best-known examples of an anarchist communist society (i.e., established around the ideas as they exist today and achieving worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon), are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution[27] and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being crushed by the combined forces of the regime that won the war, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Second Spanish Republic itself.[28] During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend—through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine—anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

The best known examples of an anarchist communist society, established around the ideas as they exist today, that received worldwide attention and knowledge in the historical canon, are the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution. Through the efforts and influence of the Spanish Anarchists during the Spanish Revolution within the Spanish Civil War, starting in 1936 anarchist communism existed in most of Aragon, parts of the Levante and Andalusia, as well as in the stronghold of Anarchist Catalonia before being brutally crushed by the combined forces of Francoism, Hitler, Mussolini, Spanish Communist Party repression (backed by the USSR) as well as economic and armaments blockades from the capitalist countries and the Spanish Republic itself.[citation needed] The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.[134]

During the Russian Revolution, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921. Later movements include the free territories of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Anarcho-communism calls for a confederal form in relationships of mutual aid and free association between communes as an alternative to the centralism of thenation-state. Peter Kropotkin thus suggested that "Representative government has accomplished its historical mission; it has given a mortal blow to court-rule; and by its debates it has awakened public interest in public questions. But to see in it the government of the future socialist society is to commit a gross error. Each economic phase of life implies its own political phase; and it is impossible to touch the very basis of the present economic life-private property -without a corresponding change in the very basis of the political organization. Life already shows in which direction the change will be made. Not in increasing the powers of the State, but in resorting to free organization and free federation in all those branches which are now considered as attributes of the State."[120]

As such "no community can hope to achieve economic autarchy, nor should it try to do so unless it wishes to become self-enclosed and parochial, not only "self-sufficient." Hence the confederation of communes"”the Commune of communes"”is reworked economically as well as politically into a shared universe of publicly managed resources. The management of the economy, precisely because it is a public activity, does not degenerate into privatized interactions between enterprises; rather it develops into confederalized interactions between municipalities. That is to say, the very elements of societal interaction are expanded from real or potential privatized components to institutionally real public components. Confederation becomes a public project by definition, not only because of shared needs and resources. If there is any way to avoid the emergence of the city-state, not to speak of self-serving bourgeois "cooperatives," it is through a municipalization of political life that is so complete that politics embraces not only what we call the public sphere but material means of life as well."[117]
Lots of literature on the subject though.
https://libcom.org/files/Anarchism1870_1940.pdf
List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - Not sure about some of these, none the less.
Questions about Anarchism - Fellow anarchists can take your questions here on anything really.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

They did work well though, it's why the people did not riot and fail to provide for each other, it's why they purposefully advocated for the system, it's why their is no documented starvation, it's why The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.
I don't think it's fair to judge the viability of a system based on military attacks against them when they had a strong military force. I've given you literature, their are countless pieces I can refer you to. If you want a dataset, find me a dataset on something else from russia in the time not related to the bolsheviks.

All that is is an unsubstantiated opinion. Literally. I'm not trying to be mean, but unfortunately that's what it is. You say that worker communes work well, well I have specific data sets that showcase worker communes working horribly across multiple different countries. I still deal with it on a regular basis in places like Malawi where customary law sets can stipulate communal ownership through a localized tribal leader or council. It works so far in that it exists and can continue to do so. But that isn't evidence that it works well. Instead, it tends to be heavily damaging to productivity and heavily stifling to investments which cause it to get left behind privately owned enterprises. Can you point to any aspect of your proposed society that is currently working well anywhere?

It's not unsubstantiated.. but whatever you want to think.

If you can't provide supporting evidence for your claims outside of simple ideological claims then that is unsubstantiated yes.

Malawi? That's not a good example, I'm not sure malawi is a good example

Why?

So it does work? If the citizens are doing fine, what's the problem?

It works in the sense that it exists and has been able to exist for a long time. It doesn't work in the sense that it keeps people in subsistence level poverty with little in the way of public goods and services since it can't generate much wealth for distribution and is highly discriminatory among cultural lines (women for example aren't legally allowed to plow fields which makes it difficult for single mother headed households to survive).

 

[Marxist]

The physical viability? Well, it worked, so I guess that's a start.
Anarcho-syndicalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Anarchist communism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
I refer you to the concept of a gift economy as well.
We do use real world data, if there was any indication of starvation or failure, it would certainly be documented by somebody.
The problem is, the system has existed, and it has worked, albeit failed due to military force and repression.

Unfortunately, i'm back to my point of the fact that you can list a couple of examples doesn't mean that they worked well or were viable systems. In fact, most were extremely short lived which doesn't exactly instill confidence in their viability. That is why I am asking for specifics from imperfect examples that might lend credence to your claims.

They did work well though, it's why the people did not riot and fail to provide for each other, it's why they purposefully advocated for the system, it's why their is no documented starvation, it's why The Spanish example, in which high levels of mobilisation and swift improvements to production were implemented by anarchists, is often cited as an example of an anarchist-communist society which saw rapid improvements to both industrial and scientific output.
I don't think it's fair to judge the viability of a system based on military attacks against them when they had a strong military force. I've given you literature, their are countless pieces I can refer you to. If you want a dataset, find me a dataset on something else from russia in the time not related to the bolsheviks.

All that is is an unsubstantiated opinion. Literally. I'm not trying to be mean, but unfortunately that's what it is. You say that worker communes work well, well I have specific data sets that showcase worker communes working horribly across multiple different countries. I still deal with it on a regular basis in places like Malawi where customary law sets can stipulate communal ownership through a localized tribal leader or council. It works so far in that it exists and can continue to do so. But that isn't evidence that it works well. Instead, it tends to be heavily damaging to productivity and heavily stifling to investments which cause it to get left behind privately owned enterprises. Can you point to any aspect of your proposed society that is currently working well anywhere?

It's not unsubstantiated.. but whatever you want to think.

If you can't provide supporting evidence for your claims outside of simple ideological claims then that is unsubstantiated yes.

Malawi? That's not a good example, I'm not sure malawi is a good example

Why?

So it does work? If the citizens are doing fine, what's the problem?

It works in the sense that it exists and has been able to exist for a long time. It doesn't work in the sense that it keeps people in subsistence level poverty with little in the way of public goods and services since it can't generate much wealth for distribution and is highly discriminatory among cultural lines (women for example aren't legally allowed to plow fields which makes it difficult for single mother headed households to survive).

It's a country in southeast africa that suffers from floods and generally been in bad condition. Women not legally being able to plow fields doesn't sound like women have a say in the production, so why would you even bring up such an example? You also mentioned "tribal leaders" owning it or something, which isn't really what I'm talking about, and not really collective ownership if the workers don't have a real say. I've given you all of the literature, I doubt their are data sets on the food intake under Genghis khan, but one can figure out that they produced enough food. It's a shame bolsheviks/the french/fascists shut down these societies with force and slaughtered the people..

 

[Osomir]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

You assume that a anarchist system wouldn't have any sort of protections from tyranny or crime, that is flat our false. It does have guarantees.
Anarchist decision-making models are deliberative, participatory, and consensus-based. People develop solutions together and make compromises if need be. It is not usually simply yes or no with majority rules.

so if people are feeling in a particularly anti Igbo mood for example then it becomes perfectly acceptable to slaughter Igbos under such a system. Way too arbitrary, and that's exactly one of the problems that we saw with other examples of peoples congresses, we saw arbitrariness in legal rulings where passion, not reason or a respect for individual rights tended to carry the day.

Also, if someone doesn't want to obey, they don't have to

Until the mob comes and kills them. I have seen this happen many times. I would never wish such an arbitrary system on any society.

 

[Marxist]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

You assume that a anarchist system wouldn't have any sort of protections from tyranny or crime, that is flat our false. It does have guarantees.
Anarchist decision-making models are deliberative, participatory, and consensus-based. People develop solutions together and make compromises if need be. It is not usually simply yes or no with majority rules.

so if people are feeling in a particularly anti Igbo mood for example then it becomes perfectly acceptable to slaughter Igbos under such a system. Way too arbitrary, and that's exactly one of the problems that we saw with other examples of peoples congresses, we saw arbitrariness in legal rulings where passion, not reason or a respect for individual rights tended to carry the day.

Also, if someone doesn't want to obey, they don't have to

Until the mob comes and kills them. I have seen this happen many times. I would never wish such an arbitrary system on any society.

No, not at all, and assuming that would happen is a slippery slope when the main attitudes for those horrible things stem from authority. Slippery slope.. and didn't it happen with slavery that it was acceptable? You may have trapped yourself on that.

 

[Osomir]

It's a country in southeast africa that suffers from floods and generally been in bad condition.

So your theory then only applies to well off communities in geographically blessed locations?

Women not legally being able to plow fields doesn't sound like women have a say in the production

It is the result of communal decision making and an example of minority stake holders (women headed households) suffering under the consensus of the larger community.

You also mentioned "tribal leaders" owning it or something, which isn't really what I'm talking about, and not really collective ownership if the workers don't have a real say.

Tribal representation is generally chosen from within the community itself. They aren't despots and generally don't have ownership over the land itself, they help guide the decision making process within communities.

I've given you all of the literature, I doubt their are data sets on the food intake under Genghis khan, but one can figure out that they produced enough food. It's a shame bolsheviks/the french/fascists shut down these societies with force and slaughtered the people..

Once again, the simple ability to produce food does not make a society well off. Zimbabwe can produce food, but that doesn't mean that it is doing well economically speaking.

 

[Osomir]

I'm also curious how you would ensure the rights of minorities under your system. What's to prevent the tyranny of the masses from engulfing them?

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

You assume that a anarchist system wouldn't have any sort of protections from tyranny or crime, that is flat our false. It does have guarantees.
Anarchist decision-making models are deliberative, participatory, and consensus-based. People develop solutions together and make compromises if need be. It is not usually simply yes or no with majority rules.

so if people are feeling in a particularly anti Igbo mood for example then it becomes perfectly acceptable to slaughter Igbos under such a system. Way too arbitrary, and that's exactly one of the problems that we saw with other examples of peoples congresses, we saw arbitrariness in legal rulings where passion, not reason or a respect for individual rights tended to carry the day.

Also, if someone doesn't want to obey, they don't have to

Until the mob comes and kills them. I have seen this happen many times. I would never wish such an arbitrary system on any society.

No, not at all, and assuming that would happen is a slippery slope

I don't have to assume anything. I've seen it happen.

and didn't it happen with slavery that it was acceptable?

I'm not sure I understand your question here

 

[Marxist]

You act as if that would happen with strong unions and democracy. What, tyranny against white supremacists? Oh mercy.

That happens within constitutional systems and anarchy is a far cry from constitutionalism. We have the Bill of Rights for example which is enforced by our centralized government and court system. Are you telling me that your system doesn't have guarantees for minority rights?

You assume that a anarchist system wouldn't have any sort of protections from tyranny or crime, that is flat our false. It does have guarantees.
Anarchist decision-making models are deliberative, participatory, and consensus-based. People develop solutions together and make compromises if need be. It is not usually simply yes or no with majority rules.

so if people are feeling in a particularly anti Igbo mood for example then it becomes perfectly acceptable to slaughter Igbos under such a system. Way too arbitrary, and that's exactly one of the problems that we saw with other examples of peoples congresses, we saw arbitrariness in legal rulings where passion, not reason or a respect for individual rights tended to carry the day.

Also, if someone doesn't want to obey, they don't have to

Until the mob comes and kills them. I have seen this happen many times. I would never wish such an arbitrary system on any society.

No, not at all, and assuming that would happen is a slippery slope

I don't have to assume anything. I've seen it happen.

and didn't it happen with slavery that it was acceptable?

I'm not sure I understand your question here

Under a state without tyranny of the majority, slavery reigned supreme. Also, to address your other point, anarchism assumes the capitalist modes of production are already set up, along with a educated society that has already industrialized.