Labor is Prior to and Independent of Capital

[Trajan]

Things are different now, subsistence farming is dead and now practically everyone is either an employee or an employer and labor has has never been this powerless to fight the ownership class. Capital in this country no longer strictly needs labor in this country, outsourcing has upset the symbiotic relationship that once existed, labor no longer has a lever. I can't see the political power that some claim the unions have, they are impotent compared to the forces arrayed against them.

I would try to focus on one topic at time becasue thats all over the place.

 

[The T]

Yeah, before capital, people grubbed in the dirt with their bare hands. For every improvement in human existence, you can give credit to capital and the men who created it.

Or that there was innovation. Yes, usually innovation is driven by greed or the desire to impress the oppossite sex....

But sometime human beings do things because they are the right thing to do. When Jonas Salk invented the Polio Vaccine, he could have patented it and made billions. He gave the information out to anyone who wanted it in order to get the vaccine out in a hurry.

Which is why no one gets Polio today. Not because of greed, but because of human innovation.

It still wasn't because of union thuggery or government. "Labor" did not invent the polio vaccine. One genius did.

Nice how invention of individuals on thier dime and interest is of no account? In today's palence? 'The collective' has to make it so.

 

[Trajan]

It was the labor movement that helped secure so much of what we take for granted today. The 40-hour work week, the minimum wage, family leave, health insurance, Social Security, Medicare, retirement plans. The cornerstones of the middle-class security all bear the union label.

Barack Obama

wow the labor movement did that all on their own eh? he should go back to writing constitutionally failing bills that, dipping into that huge, never seen ultima intellectual reservoir that he acquired as professor of same....


we'll also put aside that FDR never ever would have signed off on public sector unionization ala collective bargaining etc. and said so, but hey whats that right?

 

[JoeB131]

Or that there was innovation. Yes, usually innovation is driven by greed or the desire to impress the oppossite sex....

But sometime human beings do things because they are the right thing to do. When Jonas Salk invented the Polio Vaccine, he could have patented it and made billions. He gave the information out to anyone who wanted it in order to get the vaccine out in a hurry.

Which is why no one gets Polio today. Not because of greed, but because of human innovation.

It still wasn't because of union thuggery or government. "Labor" did not invent the polio vaccine. One genius did.

Nice how invention of individuals on thier dime and interest is of no account? In today's palence? 'The collective' has to make it so.

Except Jonas Salk didn't invent it by himself. He had teams of researchers working with him, all of whom were as dedicated as he was... Guys who no doubt worked late hours on a reseacher's salary...

So Argument Fail...

 

[Trajan]

And then came the Industrial Revolution and automation.

Labor is capital's lil' ***** now.

But you have a swell grasp of 19th century economics, Jillian.

LOL

You're 100% correct which was the reason for the need of labor unions. And as a result labor was able to level the playing field and help create a real middle class.

Now we're seeing the pendulum swinging back where the rich getting incredibly richer (with help from the government via HUGE tax cuts) and the working class getting it stuck up their ass.

what is stuck up your ass is a sense of proportion....Stockton is ready to default on its loans and will vote this week on bankruptcy....Thens there Greece but hey......Greece to you means Crestor........ buy a clue if you cannot find one.


here, read-up......

Stockton on verge of declaring bankruptcy | Full Page


great job

 

[Flopper]

Well,I think it has to do with the fact that the ruling party is called the "Communist" party and it calls itself the "People's Republic" and most of the industries are state owned, not privately owned.

What China has done is barter labor for capital... and it was the stupidest thing we've ever done...

If they called themselves Pure Democrats, would that make the people of China any less oppressed?

The label is not the determining factor.

And sure, state ownership of many of the factories is certainly ONE of the hallmarks of Marxian notions. But it does not suffice to make China actually "communist."

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

 

[bripat9643]

It still wasn't because of union thuggery or government. "Labor" did not invent the polio vaccine. One genius did.

Nice how invention of individuals on thier dime and interest is of no account? In today's palence? 'The collective' has to make it so.

Except Jonas Salk didn't invent it by himself. He had teams of researchers working with him, all of whom were as dedicated as he was... Guys who no doubt worked late hours on a reseacher's salary...

So Argument Fail...

That's a deliberate mischaraterization. There were numerous reserarchers working on the problem, but only Salk came up with the solution. He was competing against other researchers, not working with them.

 

[The T]

It still wasn't because of union thuggery or government. "Labor" did not invent the polio vaccine. One genius did.

Nice how invention of individuals on thier dime and interest is of no account? In today's palence? 'The collective' has to make it so.

Except Jonas Salk didn't invent it by himself. He had teams of researchers working with him, all of whom were as dedicated as he was... Guys who no doubt worked late hours on a reseacher's salary...

So Argument Fail...

He was given credit for it amongst those that were also working on it...WHY?

 

[bripat9643]

If they called themselves Pure Democrats, would that make the people of China any less oppressed?

The label is not the determining factor.

And sure, state ownership of many of the factories is certainly ONE of the hallmarks of Marxian notions. But it does not suffice to make China actually "communist."

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

Frankly, that sounds a lot like what goes on here in the United States.

However, the fact is that China's economy has lots of private corporations involved in it. Calling it "communist" is totally innaccurate.

 

[Flopper]

It was the labor movement that helped secure so much of what we take for granted today. The 40-hour work week, the minimum wage, family leave, health insurance, Social Security, Medicare, retirement plans. The cornerstones of the middle-class security all bear the union label.

Barack Obama

wow the labor movement did that all on their own eh? he should go back to writing constitutionally failing bills that, dipping into that huge, never seen ultima intellectual reservoir that he acquired as professor of same....


we'll also put aside that FDR never ever would have signed off on public sector unionization ala collective bargaining etc. and said so, but hey whats that right?

He said, the labor movement helped secure.. The unions were driving forces behind all these movements but it took Democrats to make it happen.

 

[Trajan]

It was the labor movement that helped secure so much of what we take for granted today. The 40-hour work week, the minimum wage, family leave, health insurance, Social Security, Medicare, retirement plans. The cornerstones of the middle-class security all bear the union label.

Barack Obama

wow the labor movement did that all on their own eh? he should go back to writing constitutionally failing bills that, dipping into that huge, never seen ultima intellectual reservoir that he acquired as professor of same....


we'll also put aside that FDR never ever would have signed off on public sector unionization ala collective bargaining etc. and said so, but hey whats that right?

He said, the labor movement helped secure.. The unions were driving forces behind all these movements but it took Democrats to make it happen.

uh huh. I am glad to see at least one dem. take credit for it. the public sector and globalization has shat the bed, what now?

 

[Trajan]

If they called themselves Pure Democrats, would that make the people of China any less oppressed?

The label is not the determining factor.

And sure, state ownership of many of the factories is certainly ONE of the hallmarks of Marxian notions. But it does not suffice to make China actually "communist."

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

you are ill informed if you think it has worked quite well for them. badly.

 

[The T]

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

you are ill informed if you think it has worked quite well for them. badly.

China needs US more than we need them.

 

[Flopper]

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

you are ill informed if you think it has worked quite well for them. badly.

Since 1990 when China began reforming their economy, GDP has increased by 17 times while the US economy tripled. That's pretty damn good by any measure. China has huge growth problems, but the growth has been phenomenal.

China's gross domestic product (GDP) growth

 

[The Rabbi]

Amazing what happens when private enterprise is allowed to work. Obama could learn a thing or two from the Chinese. I mean other than beating the opposition and lying.

 

[Trajan]

Plusly, the standard of living explodes and the human condition enjoys dramatic advance.

That's POTENTIALLY true, but it's not AUTOMATICALLY true. The job of an economy -- any economy -- is to produce goods and services and distribute them to the people. All of the complex arrangements in an economy are successful to the extent they accomplish those two simple purposes.

and of course in your world, a company owned by all its employees equally would

Capitalism does a good job of the first task, production, but tends to fall short on the second, distribution, which is just as crucial. A failure of distribution means a failure of production, too. The way that a capitalist economy has always distributed wealth is through wages paid for work. If work is no longer needed to produce wealth, though, that method will fail. Something else must take its place. Otherwise, there will be no consumers able to buy -- a failure of the distribution side -- and the entire system will crash.

and of course in your world, a company owned by all its employees equally would succeed...it only took you 4 posts to contradict yourself....bravo.

 

[Trajan]

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

you are ill informed if you think it has worked quite well for them. badly.

Since 1990 when China began reforming their economy, GDP has increased by 17 times while the US economy tripled. That's pretty damn good by any measure. China has huge growth problems, but the growth has been phenomenal.

China's gross domestic product (GDP) growth

how many people enjoy a lower, middle-middle or upper class class standard of living in china?


thats the easy one....

 

[daveman]

How does labor get hired if there's no capital?

how is capital created if there is no labor? What does capital measure?

I've answered that question already. Someone had a ridiculous objection to it.

I mean, the govenrment could print out a shitload of money, but it has to represent something....

Right now, all it represents is our collective agreement that it's worth something.

 

[daveman]

Inheritance.

LOL surely not even you are dumb enough to believe that.

Really? People don't inherit wealth and then start businesses and hire labor?

Are you sure?

Dragon, I see you ran away from this asinine train of non-thought.

 

[Flopper]

Actually, much of Chinese industry is privately owned. So that identifying characteristic makes them more capitalist than communist.

Chinese style capitalism is quite different than in the US.

In addition to the fully owned and operated state businesses in China, there are the state controlled and run businesses such as banking, telecom or transport which have minority private ownership.

Then the're the joint ventures between private (often foreign) companies and Chinese state-backed entities with the foreign firms providing the technology and its Chinese partner provides access to the Chinese market. Joint ventures are common in fields such as car making, logistics and agriculture.

Next is the fully private business. They are still subject to frequent meddling by the government. If they are favored, state-controlled banks will provide them with cheap loans and bureaucrats will attempt to discourage their foreign competitors. Such meddling is common in areas such as energy and the internet.

And finally there're are businesses fueled by investment by local government, often through municipally owned venture-capital funds. These funds typically back businesses that dabble in clean tech or hire locals. There are thousands of these small businesses in towns and villages across China.

The term private business in the US is pretty clear but not so in China. However, whatever they have seems to be working quite well for them.

Frankly, that sounds a lot like what goes on here in the United States.

However, the fact is that China's economy has lots of private corporations involved in it. Calling it "communist" is totally innaccurate.

The Chinese government operates in the old communist style but with a big difference. It's in an uneasy peace with business. As long as the people will tolerate a nondemocratic government, the government will allow the free market to flourish.