Kiev Planning a Strike on Russia with Western-Made Missiles

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
Russia could kill many more Ukrainian civilians and destroy more civilian infrastructure, but its military is struggling to try to keep up with the Ukrainian military and it appears to be doubtful Russia will be able to keep up this level of conflict for very long, let alone intensify it.

NATO won the war in Kosovo with that modus operandi.

Originally posted by toomuchtime
Russia could kill many more Ukrainian civilians and destroy more civilian infrastructure, but its military is struggling to try to keep up with the Ukrainian military and it appears to be doubtful Russia will be able to keep up this level of conflict for very long, let alone intensify it.

Besides that, war is a tremendously complex human activity whose final outcome is often determined by social, political, economic variables not directly related to military strength and the actual conflict itself as America and the USSR learned the hard way in Vietnam and Afghanistan, respectively.

 

[Ringo]

 

[toomuchtime_]

NATO won the war in Kosovo with that modus operandi.



Besides that, war is a tremendously complex human activity whose final outcome is often determined by social, political, economic variables not directly related to military strength and the actual conflict itself as America and the USSR learned the hard way in Vietnam and Afghanistan, respectively.

This war is very simple. Putin set out to rebuild the Russian empire and he violated every relevant law and treaty to do so, so he went to war not only against Ukraine but against the whole fabric of civilization that was established after WWII, and either Russa loses or the whole world loses.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
This war is very simple. Putin set out to rebuild the Russian empire and he violated every relevant law and treaty to do so, so he went to war not only against Ukraine but against the whole fabric of civilization that was established after WWII, and either Russa loses or the whole world loses.

Putin set out to rebuild the Russian empire...​

This is an imaginary history of Eastern Europe that you made up in order to portray Russia as the aggressor.

I recently posted a message that addresses these drug-induced hallucinations that constantly plagues super patriotic american clowns:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

They don't want to face the recent history of eastern Europe, Beale, Couchpotato.

They don't want to admit that Russia dismantled the Iron Curtain, the Soviet Union itself and extended an olive branch to the West only to get hostility, NATO expansionism and Cold War revanchism in return.

In 1991 the West could have chosen to treat Russia as a partner, starting a process to integrate the country with the European Union and NATO. Instead, the US and Europe decided to treat Russia as the loser of the Cold War, excluding the country from the political, economic and military structures of western Europe. They decided to keep Russia as a source of cheap raw materials and subject the country to a military encirclement.

The reality check says:

Russia didn't commit any aggression against its neighbors from 1991 to 2008 (first reaction to NATO expansion).

If they recognize this fact they will be forced to admit that the military enlargement was a completely gratuitous, unprovoked act of hostility towards a country that had just peacefully dismantled an empire.

This is the crucible super patriotic american clowns find themselves in:

They desperately want to believe NATO expansion was a reaction to post-soviet Russia's military aggression against her neighbors so that the West/NATO can't be portrayed as a bully but the REAL RECENT HISTORY OF EASTERN EUROPE stubbornly keeps rubbing on their faces there was no russian aggression after the "great reset" of the end of the Cold War while the plans to expand NATO started in 1991 even before the USSR was officially dismantled.

So what do they do when they are forced to concede that the narrative they love so much does not correspond to THE REAL HISTORY OF EASTERN EUROPE that happened outside their heads?

Instead of adjusting their narrative to the real history of Europe, they "adjust" the real history of Europe to their narrative.

In other words, they create an imaginary history of eastern Europe, a history that only exist in their heads in order to portray post-soviet Russia as the aggressor.

That's why message boards, despite being good fun, are a big waste of time.

Nobody can ever hope to convince anybody of anything.

How can you ever expect to convince anyone of anything when most people are willing to create an entire parallel universe complete with an alternate history of eastern Europe in order to "validate" their narrative?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Putin set out to rebuild the Russian empire...​

This is an imaginary history of Eastern Europe that you made up in order to portray Russia as the aggressor.

I recently posted a message that addresses these drug-induced hallucinations that constantly plagues super patriotic american clowns:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

They don't want to face the recent history of eastern Europe, Beale, Couchpotato.

They don't want to admit that Russia dismantled the Iron Curtain, the Soviet Union itself and extended an olive branch to the West only to get hostility, NATO expansionism and Cold War revanchism in return.

In 1991 the West could have chosen to treat Russia as a partner, starting a process to integrate the country with the European Union and NATO. Instead, the US and Europe decided to treat Russia as the loser of the Cold War, excluding the country from the political, economic and military structures of western Europe. They decided to keep Russia as a source of cheap raw materials and subject the country to a military encirclement.

The reality check says:

Russia didn't commit any aggression against its neighbors from 1991 to 2008 (first reaction to NATO expansion).

If they recognize this fact they will be forced to admit that the military enlargement was a completely gratuitous, unprovoked act of hostility towards a country that had just peacefully dismantled an empire.

This is the crucible super patriotic american clowns find themselves in:

They desperately want to believe NATO expansion was a reaction to post-soviet Russia's military aggression against her neighbors so that the West/NATO can't be portrayed as a bully but the REAL RECENT HISTORY OF EASTERN EUROPE stubbornly keeps rubbing on their faces there was no russian aggression after the "great reset" of the end of the Cold War while the plans to expand NATO started in 1991 even before the USSR was officially dismantled.

So what do they do when they are forced to concede that the narrative they love so much does not correspond to THE REAL HISTORY OF EASTERN EUROPE that happened outside their heads?

Instead of adjusting their narrative to the real history of Europe, they "adjust" the real history of Europe to their narrative.

In other words, they create an imaginary history of eastern Europe, a history that only exist in their heads in order to portray post-soviet Russia as the aggressor.

That's why message boards, despite being good fun, are a big waste of time.

Nobody can ever hope to convince anybody of anything.

How can you ever expect to convince anyone of anything when most people are willing to create an entire parallel universe complete with an alternate history of eastern Europe in order to "validate" their narrative?

Even if any of this were true, and it is not, what you are saying is that to your mind, Russia was offended by western attitudes and so it invaded Ukraine to steal its land, people and wealth, and you think that was adequate justification for the war.

 

[Kruska]

Well that is the million dollar question. How long will Ukrainian hold out and continue the fight. They have embarrassed Russia but they have also suffered significant casualties and in a prolong war this is a problem. Time is not on there side as long as Putin remains in power. A prolong war favors Russia. Ukraine has fought bravely against a legitimate super power.

Putin needs to go and preferably be ousted by his own people. Jail would be to kind to him. He likes it rough so they should be rough with him.

The Russian population - aside the partially woke population in e.g. Moscow or St. Petersburg stands behind Putin.
Putin failed miserably in his goal to launch a coup in Kiev. The Russian forces deployed in Ukraine are matching those the Ukraine has - the vast remaining part of the Russian forces is still based in Russia. Therefore the Russian population does not see or anticipates a full scale war.

They however understand that the war in Ukraine is essential towards guaranteeing Russia's independence and survival as an independent nation - so why should they want to oust Putin or even jail him?

 

[Kilroy2]

The Russian population - aside the partially woke population in e.g. Moscow or St. Petersburg stands behind Putin.
Putin failed miserably in his goal to launch a coup in Kiev. The Russian forces deployed in Ukraine are matching those the Ukraine has - the vast remaining part of the Russian forces is still based in Russia. Therefore the Russian population does not see or anticipates a full scale war.

They however understand that the war in Ukraine is essential towards guaranteeing Russia's independence and survival as an independent nation - so why should they want to oust Putin or even jail him

Okay so Russia independence and survival depends on war in Ukraine. What do they fear that the US and NATO will invade?

How can one know if the majority of population is behind Putin.? Do they have free speech? No they don't but free speech is probably overrated.

Do they really care about Ukraine ? Can they speak freely about this or criticize Putin for the war. NO.

Russian defector sheds light on Putin paranoia and his secret train network

I guess if you make it out you can.

Here’s who Russia has punished for speaking out against the war in Ukraine

Since Russia invaded Ukraine in late February, Russian President Vladimir Putin and his allies have cracked down on dissidents and activists who have spoken out against the war. The Kremlin passed …

thehill.com

IF they say bad things then they are punished so I would imagine it is best to be silent.

Russian army launches campaign encouraging men to join

The campaign comes as Russian armed forces apparently suffer heavy losses in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

As Russia pushes for more people to enlist, the message is be a man. Like they have a choice instead of a person.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/europe/russia-fsb-defectors-osechkin-intl-cmd/index.html

How many people want to leave Russia vs those who want to go to Russia and be a citizen,?

Russian military defectors describe "real-life nightmare" | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

Russian soldiers who relied on help from a compatriot activist to defect have painted a bleak picture of the war effort in Ukraine, describing scenes of fear, confusion, demoralization, and even outright mutiny.

www3.nhk.or.jp

Those who have manage to get out have a different perspective

 

[Ringo]

You can always count on americans to learn absolutely nothing from the last time US Government lied them into a war

 

[Kruska]

Those who have manage to get out have a different perspective

Off course these people do, that's why they got out of Russia

The problem with the Western MSM is that they falsely propagate - that those who got out or criticize the government within a country - supposedly constitute a majority.!!

The same applied to Nazi Germany, those who got out (vast majority of those people being persecuted) off course defied the Nazi's - however these people did not represent the majority of Germans at the time. 40% supported the Nazis, the other 40% didn't care about politics and 20% opposed the Nazis.
That after the war these 40% (don't care) and those 40% who supported the Nazis - all claimed to never have been Nazi's is understood.

 

[Kilroy2]

Off course these people do, that's why they got out of Russia

The problem with the Western MSM is that they falsely propagate - that those who got out or criticize the government within a country - supposedly constitute a majority.!!

The same applied to Nazi Germany, those who got out (vast majority of those people being persecuted) off course defied the Nazi's - however these people did not represent the majority of Germans at the time. 40% supported the Nazis, the other 40% didn't care about politics and 20% opposed the Nazis.
That after the war these 40% (don't care) and those 40% who supported the Nazis - all claimed to never have been Nazi's is understood.

Western politics is full of peoples criticism. Criticism is not always by the majority nor is it falsely propagating. Its an opinion. The question is why is Putin so sensitive to opinions? Why can't Putin handle criticism. Come on say one negative thing about Putin. I won't say its a majority. Its just your opinion.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Kruska]

Western politics is full of peoples criticism. Criticism is not always by the majority nor is it falsely propagating. Its an opinion. The question is why is Putin so sensitive to opinions? Why can't Putin handle criticism. Come on say one negative thing about Putin. I won't say its a majority. Its just your opinion.

There are enough polls (naturally you will refute them) having been conducted in Russia that show a clear majority of Russians supporting Putin.
The latest one IIRC was in February 2023 - conducted by an organization to show that Putin isn't supported - but the results showed a 70% support for Putin.
Putin can handle criticism just as well as any other politician on this planet - they all refute criticism and blame everyone else but themselves.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There are enough polls (naturally you will refute them) having been conducted in Russia that show a clear majority of Russians supporting Putin.
The latest one IIRC was in February 2023 - conducted by an organization to show that Putin isn't supported - but the results showed a 70% support for Putin.
Putin can handle criticism just as well as any other politician on this planet - they all refute criticism and blame everyone else but themselves.

With just about total control of the media, one would expect Putin to score high in he polls, but in Russia where people are encouraged to report their neighbors to the state for spreading "misinformation", you have to be very brave to speak against the government, and if 30% of Russians are that brave, it is reasonable to assume many more would like to see Putin gone but are not brave enough to says so.

 

[Kilroy2]

There are enough polls (naturally you will refute them) having been conducted in Russia that show a clear majority of Russians supporting Putin.
The latest one IIRC was in February 2023 - conducted by an organization to show that Putin isn't supported - but the results showed a 70% support for Putin.
Putin can handle criticism just as well as any other politician on this planet - they all refute criticism and blame everyone else but themselves.

Well it seems you really love him and will defend him until he is gone. Did you vote yes on extending his reign by amending the constitution to allow him to stay in office until 2036?

There is a power struggle going on and the Ukraine problem may be his undoing. Assets being frozen that will hurt the elites that are keeping him in power. There seems to be some break in the armor here as some are not so firmly entrenched in keeping him around.

Wagner troops seems to be a problem. Why would Putin allow this guy to build a private army? I hope this does not come back to bite him.

Still if I was Putin, then I would fall back to the territories they have complete control and call a truce. Focus on issues at home that will help him secure his power. he might last until 2036.

Now put your positive spin on it

 

[Kruska]

Well it seems you really love him and will defend him until he is gone. Did you vote yes on extending his reign by amending the constitution to allow him to stay in office until 2036?

Nonsense statements and accusations

There is a power struggle going on and the Ukraine problem may be his undoing. Assets being frozen that will hurt the elites that are keeping him in power. There seems to be some break in the armor here as some are not so firmly entrenched in keeping him around.

There has been endless power struggle in Russia since it's formation in the 15th century - the same goes for most other European and non European countries.

Wagner troops seems to be a problem. Why would Putin allow this guy to build a private army? I hope this does not come back to bite him.

Yes they are a huge problem for the Ukraine - and many countries including the USA have such "service providers"
So far Wagner has been Putin's tool, to circumvent Putin directly confronting the military with critics. (Since he still needs to "protect" his incapable military leadership towards the anger of the population) Wagner troops now marching through Russia - do you know the real agenda behind this?

The only two facts that presently exist:
- Putin has declared martial law in Moscow - and might extend this to other cities.
- Putin has publicly stated today 24.06. 2023 - Russia is at war

So to who's "benefit" is this Wagner march presently??

Still if I was Putin, then I would fall back to the territories they have complete control and call a truce.

Since those 20% of occupied Ukraine territory are under complete control - why should he fall back to Russia? - to make you happy or what?

Focus on issues at home that will help him secure his power. he might last until 2036.

I highly doubt that Putin will be President beyond 2026 - depending on the US election outcome he might even retire in 2024.

Now put your positive spin on it

What is positive about this ridiculous war?? - incited and provoked by NATO and the USA. Costing the destruction of Ukraine and hundred of thousand Ukrainian and Russian lives - you obviously enjoy this war.

 

[Kilroy2]

Nonsense statements and accusations

There has been endless power struggle in Russia since it's formation in the 15th century - the same goes for most other European and non European countries.

Yes they are a huge problem for the Ukraine - and many countries including the USA have such "service providers"
So far Wagner has been Putin's tool, to circumvent Putin directly confronting the military with critics. (Since he still needs to "protect" his incapable military leadership towards the anger of the population) Wagner troops now marching through Russia - do you know the real agenda behind this?

The only two facts that presently exist:
- Putin has declared martial law in Moscow - and might extend this to other cities.
- Putin has publicly stated today 24.06. 2023 - Russia is at war

So to who's "benefit" is this Wagner march presently??


Since those 20% of occupied Ukraine territory are under complete control - why should he fall back to Russia? - to make you happy or what?

I highly doubt that Putin will be President beyond 2026 - depending on the US election outcome he might even retire in 2024.

What is positive about this ridiculous war?? - incited and provoked by NATO and the USA. Costing the destruction of Ukraine and hundred of thousand Ukrainian and Russian lives - you obviously enjoy this war.

You say nonsense but yet your just making excuses.

you a Putin supporter.

Are you afraid for him or fear that harm will come to him?

You seem to support Russia holding on to Ukraine land and killing innocent people

The agenda is no concern , there actions is what must be dealt with. Everyone has an agenda including you

Still as a loyal Putin supporter, I would go ahead and enlist to fight for him. I am sure he would welcome that. Instead of writing comments of how you support him.

 

[Kruska]

You say nonsense but yet your just making excuses.

you a Putin supporter.

Are you afraid for him or fear that harm will come to him?

You seem to support Russia holding on to Ukraine land and killing innocent people

The agenda is no concern , there actions is what must be dealt with. Everyone has an agenda including you

Still as a loyal Putin supporter, I would go ahead and enlist to fight for him. I am sure he would welcome that. Instead of writing comments of how you support him.

You are one of those Western MSM stooges who can't think straight - so discussing with you, I could just as well discuss with a color blind person about colors.

 

[Kilroy2]

You are one of those Western MSM stooges who can't think straight - so discussing with you, I could just as well discuss with a color blind person about colors.

Yet you still reply to my comments. There is no need to reply. Hey how is the weather in Germany?

 

[Kruska]

Yet you still reply to my comments. There is no need to reply. Hey how is the weather in Germany?

You need to learn about the difference between a reply and engaging in a discussion.
A reply is a matter of courtesy and manners (no matter how dumb your post is)

That I am not going to continue a discussion with an MSM stooge - should be even clear to you, upon having received my former REPLY

 

[Kilroy2]

You need to learn about the difference between a reply and engaging in a discussion.
A reply is a matter of courtesy and manners (no matter how dumb your post is)

That I am not going to continue a discussion with an MSM stooge - should be even clear to you, upon having received my former REPLY

Reply comrade