Kiev Planning a Strike on Russia with Western-Made Missiles

[Donald H]

Silly stuff. The US has not given Ukraine permission to use US supplied weapons to attack targets inside of Russia, but Crimea is occupied Ukraine, and there are no restrictions on using those weapons to liberate Crimea.

Semi-valid point in that Russia considers the Crimea a part of Russia, while America doesn't.

Months ago, General Hodges laid out a rough plan to retake Crimea, long range missiles to take out Russian military assets in Crimea to weaken the Russian frontlines and then a strong attack to drive the Russian invaders back to Russia.

So the question may be on whether or not Russia considers the Crimea as Russia.

A few days ago, the Kremlin announced that Ukraine had been mostly demilitarized, and now and now they are having hissy fits over an attack on Crimea they always knew was coming. Apparently, someone has misplaced the Russian brain.

The problem is, Russia considers the Crimea as essential to Russia's future as a competing superpower.

I think that the war will certainly become nuclear before Russia will give up the Crimea. I suspect you will understand the reason why, so I won't elaborate. (ask if you don't know)

A more important question is whether Russia will give up the newly proclaimed terrotories that they consider parts of Russia.

 

[Donald H]

There is no BRICS side, just Russia isolated and alone struggling to survive Putin's stupidity.

That's an issue I've expected to be raised right now, in that Americans will see some optimism in Blinken making some progress in China.
And there's an alternative opinion that America's leading strategic minds are not in the same league with China. Or, it might be said that China is fully aware that they aren't secure against US aggression without the military alliance with Russia.

I tend to lean toward China understanding that they are on the hit list after Russia.

Do you think so too?

 

[Donald H]

Everybody's opinion is the same, Russia can't win this war unless the West abandons Ukraine, and the longer the war goes on the worse it is for Russia. Regardless of which side you favor, everyone knows this is the truth.

I think it's far from everybody, and I base that hunch on the fact that we know there are many Americans on this board alone that aren't buying it.

However, it's far from my interest to debate the question.

Regardless of initial resistance by most to taking part on this topic, they have now. The purpose is served with you especially introducing some key questions!

 

[toomuchtime_]

Semi-valid point in that Russia considers the Crimea a part of Russia, while America doesn't.

So the question may be on whether or not Russia considers the Crimea as Russia.

The problem is, Russia considers the Crimea as essential to Russia's future as a competing superpower.

I think that the war will certainly become nuclear before Russia will give up the Crimea. I suspect you will understand the reason why, so I won't elaborate. (ask if you don't know)

A more important question is whether Russia will give up the newly proclaimed territories that they consider parts of Russia.

Only Russia considers Crimea to be part of Russia; the rest of the world sees it as occupied Ukrainian territory.

There is no rational basis for thinking Russia using a few tactical nukes in Ukraine would change the course of the war or save Russia from ruin, and Russia would not survive a nuclear exchange with NATO.

Imagining Russia could become a superpower may be the most bizarre thing you have ever posted.

Talking about nukes, means you agree with me that Russia cannot win this war and is facing ruin if it continues to pursue it.

 

[Donald H]

Gotta leave the discussion now but I'll just add:

I think more and more people are coming to the realization that this war is America's war against Russia. As that understanding sinks in, there becomes many, many more important questions to be answered.

We'll work toward doing that tomorrow on a new thread for that purpose.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I think it's far from everybody, and I base that hunch on the fact that we know there are many Americans on this board alone that aren't buying it.

However, it's far from my interest to debate the question.

Regardless of initial resistance by most to taking part on this topic, they have now. The purpose is served with you especially introducing some key questions!

Whether some people support US aid to Russia or not, hardly anyone thinks Russia can win this war unless the West abandons Ukraine. This is why people like you continue to bring up the nuclear boogeyman to try to frighten the West away, but as I explained above, there is no rational basis for believing tactical nukes will change the course of this war.

 

[Kilroy2]

Lots of substance in that reply! I'll address one point:


Of course the Ukraine can't defeat Russia!

But America using the Ukraine as its proxy maybe can? Get yourself up to speed!

And then when you do, maybe you can address the topic that's being avoided. Will either America accept defeat without going nuclear.

Then maybe you can consider the chance of N.Y. or Moscow becoming a glass parking lot?

If what I say is to complicated for you then it is not my problem

I wrote - "Depending on the west for help will either create a proxy war or a whole lot of people will die." This is a hypothetical statement and only address possibilities. Whether this is a proxy war is debatable. US will not deploy troops and Russia did invade. Yet the US and the West have sent money and weapons. It is also being suggested that China (they deny this) has sent weapons to Russia. Still the issue is there are background players. Money and weapons are being sent. yeah troops have not been committed. US has sent advisors.

Vietnam and Korean were considered proxy wars. Us did send troops to fight with troops of the those nations.

Ukraine says it is finding more Chinese components in Russian weapons

Ukrainian forces are finding a growing number of components from China in Russian weapons used in Ukraine, a senior adviser in President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's office told Reuters, as Western supplies are squeezed by sanctions.

www.reuters.com

A global proxy war: Ukraine is now the center of our Eurasian competition with Russia and China

The Chinese insistence on “great changes unseen in a century” indicates the scale of China’s ambition.

thehill.com

A global proxy war: Ukraine is now the center of our Eurasian competition with Russia and China

The Chinese insistence on “great changes unseen in a century” indicates the scale of China’s ambition.

thehill.com

https://www.cato.org/commentary/nato-vs-russia-proxy-war-ukraine-could-become-real-war

There is a discussion and disagreement on that topic. Seems you want to disagree

You seem to accept that Ukraine can't defeat Russia as ;you accept that statement. Yet they are fighting a war and both side believe they can win.

You - And then when you do, maybe you can address the topic that's being avoided. Will either America accept defeat without going nuclear.

You ask a question that you know the answer to. It will not go nuclear. US and the west have invested in Ukraine to be aligned with them. Admitting defeat and the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign nation is not an option. Russia has targeted civilian targets. If Ukraine gave up and accepted Russia as there mother then yeah it would be over. As long as Ukraine fights then they will have other countries supporting them. Giving foreign weaponry to Ukraine is like a proxy but it lacks not having to send troops to Ukraine. If Russia uses nuclear weapon then the world will turn on them. Well China might still be there friend. Ukraine is not a nuclear threat.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons left by the soviets years ago. So they do not have them currently. Also because Crimea is an ally of Russia and Ukraine has Russian sympathizers. They are not going to nuke Ukraine because of the collateral damage aspect.

 

[Litwin]

will cause Russia to get serious about ending this war?

No, Moscow ulus can´t stop this war thats why we need to defeat Moscow ulus and dismantle the khan Juchi ( eldest son of Temüjin (aka Genghis Khan),) project.

 

[Litwin]

Russia

 

[Ringo]

If Israel plans to supply tanks to ukrainian nazis, will they have german crosses or stars of David on them?
I don't know who to ask...

 

[toomuchtime_]

If what I say is to complicated for you then it is not my problem

I wrote - "Depending on the west for help will either create a proxy war or a whole lot of people will die." This is a hypothetical statement and only address possibilities. Whether this is a proxy war is debatable. US will not deploy troops and Russia did invade. Yet the US and the West have sent money and weapons. It is also being suggested that China (they deny this) has sent weapons to Russia. Still the issue is there are background players. Money and weapons are being sent. yeah troops have not been committed. US has sent advisors.

Vietnam and Korean were considered proxy wars. Us did send troops to fight with troops of the those nations.

Ukraine says it is finding more Chinese components in Russian weapons

Ukrainian forces are finding a growing number of components from China in Russian weapons used in Ukraine, a senior adviser in President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's office told Reuters, as Western supplies are squeezed by sanctions.

www.reuters.com

A global proxy war: Ukraine is now the center of our Eurasian competition with Russia and China

The Chinese insistence on “great changes unseen in a century” indicates the scale of China’s ambition.

thehill.com

A global proxy war: Ukraine is now the center of our Eurasian competition with Russia and China

The Chinese insistence on “great changes unseen in a century” indicates the scale of China’s ambition.

thehill.com

https://www.cato.org/commentary/nato-vs-russia-proxy-war-ukraine-could-become-real-war

There is a discussion and disagreement on that topic. Seems you want to disagree

You seem to accept that Ukraine can't defeat Russia as ;you accept that statement. Yet they are fighting a war and both side believe they can win.

You - And then when you do, maybe you can address the topic that's being avoided. Will either America accept defeat without going nuclear.

You ask a question that you know the answer to. It will not go nuclear. US and the west have invested in Ukraine to be aligned with them. Admitting defeat and the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign nation is not an option. Russia has targeted civilian targets. If Ukraine gave up and accepted Russia as there mother then yeah it would be over. As long as Ukraine fights then they will have other countries supporting them. Giving foreign weaponry to Ukraine is like a proxy but it lacks not having to send troops to Ukraine. If Russia uses nuclear weapon then the world will turn on them. Well China might still be there friend. Ukraine is not a nuclear threat.

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons left by the soviets years ago. So they do not have them currently. Also because Crimea is an ally of Russia and Ukraine has Russian sympathizers. They are not going to nuke Ukraine because of the collateral damage aspect.

The US is clearly not involved in a proxy war in Ukraine. If you recall, the US was immediately willing to concede the issue to Russia by offering Zelensky safe passage out of Ukraine, but Zelensky refused, and Ukraine went on fighting, driving the Russians back from Kiev before there was any promise of aid from the West.

While Biden did initially rally support for Ukraine, the US is not even the driving force behand it any longer. Now the US is following the Europeans who are sending long range missiles to Ukraine while the US refuses to and who pushed the US to ok the transfer of F 16's to Ukraine.

This is not a conflict between Russia and the US or Russia and NATO or even a conflict between East and West; it is a conflict between civilization and barbarism. Russia has violated every relevant law and treaty by invading Ukraine, and civilization consists of exactly this, laws and agreements that make life and progress without violence and destruction possible. If Russia is allowed to trounce over these laws and treaties with impunity, it threatens the whole fabric of international relations, because who can trust laws and treaties the world allows to be so causally violated? Any concession to Russia at this point makes every nation less secure.

 

[Donald H]

This is not a conflict between Russia and the US or Russia and NATO or even a conflict between East and West; it is a conflict between civilization and barbarism. Russia has violated every relevant law and treaty by invading Ukraine, and civilization consists of exactly this, laws and agreements that make life and progress without violence and destruction possible. If Russia is allowed to trounce over these laws and treaties with impunity, it threatens the whole fabric of international relations, because who can trust laws and treaties the world allows to be so causally violated? Any concession to Russia at this point makes every nation less secure.

Don't you think that the whole fabric of international relations has been threatened by America in at least 35 wars of aggression started by America since the end of WW2?

We need to try to keep the scale of aggression in it's proper perspective, and that includes China's record too, as one of the three major superpowers.

(my bolding)

My biggest concern now is that America's propaganda is started to be penetrated, and that commonly results in the CIA becoming involved with false accusations against America's enemy, with escalations of the war to follow.

Regardless of how the blame is attached to one side or the other, that's not worrying. The escalation to nuclear war is this time.

This is not an enemy of America that can be easily defeated at will. This is the real thing this time.

 

[Donald H]

No, Moscow ulus can´t stop this war thats why we need to defeat Moscow ulus and dismantle the khan Juchi ( eldest son of Temüjin (aka Genghis Khan),) project.

Yes. America must somehow defeat the Russian enemy.

And yes. Russia's mission is as essential and even moreso.

 

[Donald H]

They are not going to nuke Ukraine because of the collateral damage aspect.

You come off to me as a thoroughly confused American teen. You need to try to find opponents in your own league!

 

[Kilroy2]

The US is clearly not involved in a proxy war in Ukraine. If you recall, the US was immediately willing to concede the issue to Russia by offering Zelensky safe passage out of Ukraine, but Zelensky refused, and Ukraine went on fighting, driving the Russians back from Kiev before there was any promise of aid from the West.

While Biden did initially rally support for Ukraine, the US is not even the driving force behand it any longer. Now the US is following the Europeans who are sending long range missiles to Ukraine while the US refuses to and who pushed the US to ok the transfer of F 16's to Ukraine.

This is not a conflict between Russia and the US or Russia and NATO or even a conflict between East and West; it is a conflict between civilization and barbarism. Russia has violated every relevant law and treaty by invading Ukraine, and civilization consists of exactly this, laws and agreements that make life and progress without violence and destruction possible. If Russia is allowed to trounce over these laws and treaties with impunity, it threatens the whole fabric of international relations, because who can trust laws and treaties the world allows to be so causally violated? Any concession to Russia at this point makes every nation less secure.

Well the problem with using proxy war is its definition and what is a proxy war.

proxy war definition - a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved.

US is not involved in the fighting but they have advisors on the ground, Russia instigated it. Both are major powers.

The war in Donbas is a clearer example that started in 2014. Insurgent groups that was supported by Russia fought to become separate from Ukraine. They were supported by Russia. unfortunately the insurgent groups were ineffective and Russia had to step in. Russia instigated this war in an effort to force Ukraine to reject western help and they did not want Ukraine to join NATO. The Donbas war meets the definition and is considered part of Ukraine. Well deepening on what side of the war your on.

Russian instigated the war by supporting the rebels. Yes it has expanded. Currently there are US and NATO special troops in Ukraine. I do not know what there doing but they are probably not doing the fighting. US and NATO supply Ukraine with weapons.

The U.S. is one of several Western countries with military special forces on the ground in Ukraine, leaked documents show

No information on their location or missions was detailed in the files.

fortune.com

Is the war in Ukraine a proxy conflict? | Feature from King's College London

www.kcl.ac.uk

 

[Kilroy2]

You come off to me as a thoroughly confused American teen. You need to try to find opponents in your own league!

My My is that all you got. Present something with facts if you can.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Kiev planning strike on Russia with Western-made missiles – Moscow

Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu has warned Kiev of an “immediate” retaliation for possible Storm Shadow missile strikes on Crimea

www.rt.com

Is this the provocation that will cause Russia to get serious about ending this war?
And if Russia can't end it decisively with conventional weapons then will Putin order tactical nuclear weapons?

Or will America step in and order the Ukraine to not cause the provocation that allows this war to escalate into world war?

Or

Has America instructed the Ukraine to escalate, due to the UKraine's completely ineffective counter attack failure?

Or some other interpretation of what is taking place?

Conditions on the ground SUCK for any offensive, the mud is 10 feet deep

Ukraine is a shell of itself, it has no business attacking. The remaining Ukey Army needs to remove Zelen$ky and his WEF Masters and MAKE PEACE!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

stop this war

Make peace, you fools!!

Zelen$ky is in talks with Blackrock to sell whatever portion is left after this summer

 

[Donald H]

Conditions on the ground SUCK for any offensive, the mud is 10 feet deep

Ukraine is a shell of itself, it has no business attacking. The remaining Ukey Army needs to remove Zelen$ky and his WEF Masters and MAKE PEACE!

Yes, the great Russian offensive is being planned for summer. This coincides with expert American war analysts that the war will be over by fall.

 

[Kilroy2]

Putin declared his goal on 24 February 2022 was to "demilitarise and denazify" Ukraine and not occupy it by force, days after backing independence for eastern Ukrainian territories occupied by Russian proxy forces since 2014.

Damn there is that proxy word again.

Has Putin's war failed and what does Russia want from Ukraine?

A year into Russia's war, he has little to show for it but there is no sign of an end.

www.bbc.com