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Keep Finland and Sweden Out of Nato.

Silver Cat

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It's not hard to tell the difference. NATO expands because European countries want protection from Russia, but Russia is trying to expand by bombing countries into submission.
From the Western point of view only. From the Russian point of view Russia is expanding to defend Russian people from NATO and their proxies.
China or India, say, they don't see the big difference between the Western accusations of "Albanian genocide in Serbia" or "Iraq's WMD program" with the Russian excuses - "Genocide of Russians in Donbass" and "American bio-weapon labs in Ukraine".
 

toomuchtime_

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Who said that? Previous time liberation of Ukraine took almost two years.
Typical Russian lie. Russia merely took over the Nazi occupation of Ukraine and held the people there prisoners for 45 years. That's why the people of eastern Europe hate Russia so much and why they flock to join NATO. However I was talking about Putin's current fiasco in Ukraine in which he gave a master class in how not to run an invasion.
 

toomuchtime_

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From the Western point of view only. From the Russian point of view Russia is expanding to defend Russian people from NATO and their proxies.
China or India, say, they don't see the big difference between the Western accusations of "Albanian genocide in Serbia" or "Iraq's WMD program" with the Russian excuses - "Genocide of Russians in Donbass" and "American bio-weapon labs in Ukraine".
Everyone understands that Russia is in Ukraine because of Putin's mad dream to reconstruct the USSR, only nations like Belarus that share Russia's contempt for international law and international treaties don't care.
 

Silver Cat

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Typical Russian lie. Russia merely took over the Nazi occupation of Ukraine and held the people there prisoners for 45 years.
It depends on your point of view. In Russian Empire as well as in the Soviet Union the Ukrainians (or Small Russians) had the same rights as people of the Great Russia. What is even more important Ukraine itself was created by Lenin.


That's why the people of eastern Europe hate Russia so much and why they flock to join NATO. However I was talking about Putin's current fiasco in Ukraine in which he gave a master class in how not to run an invasion.
Really? Right now Russia already got the land way to Crimea, they are successfully crushing most effective and motivated Ukrainian forces, and they coerced most of European gas and oil buyers to pay for it.
 

Silver Cat

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Everyone understands that Russia is in Ukraine because of Putin's mad dream to reconstruct the USSR, only nations like Belarus that share Russia's contempt for international law and international treaties don't care.
Not everyone. Actually, 75% of the world population (may be even more) - don't care too.
 

Ringo

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toomuchtime_

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Protection? Use the words correctly - it's a racket
Yes, eastern European countries flock to NATO for protection from the Evil Empire.
 

Ringo

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Yes, eastern European countries flock to NATO for protection from the Evil Empire.
Residents of Poland were dissatisfied with the excessive attention of their president to the problems of Ukraine. One of the most popular motives in the comments was the slogan "Enough to feed Ukrainians".
Polish voters complain that the Duda administration is spending billions of dollars to help Ukraine and many enterprises in Poland are on the verge of closure, forced to cut salaries and lay off workers.
Many рolish families have preserved the memory of the Volyn massacre and do not understand how Duda can hug the heirs of Bandera and offer them help on behalf of the Poles
 

toomuchtime_

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Residents of Poland were dissatisfied with the excessive attention of their president to the problems of Ukraine. One of the most popular motives in the comments was the slogan "Enough to feed Ukrainians".
Polish voters complain that the Duda administration is spending billions of dollars to help Ukraine and many enterprises in Poland are on the verge of closure, forced to cut salaries and lay off workers.
Many рolish families have preserved the memory of the Volyn massacre and do not understand how Duda can hug the heirs of Bandera and offer them help on behalf of the Poles
Unlike Putin's Russia, Poland is a democracy in which citizens are not sent to prison for disagreeing with the government as they are in Russia, so if the Polish people are unhappy with their leadership, they will change it at the polls; in Putin's Russia, the only way to change the leadership is to kill the leader.

Like Ukraine, the Polish people recall spending 45 years under a brutal Russian occupation which Putin is pining to reimpose on Ukraine and they understand that the little gangster would try to reimpose he horrors of the Russian occupation on Poland if it could, so Poland's aid to Ukraine is in part self serving, as long as Putin's war criminals are unable to conquer Ukraine, Putin will be unable to launch his attack on Poland. All of the civilized world sees Russia's barbaric attack on the Ukrainian people in exactly the same way.
 

toomuchtime_

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Who said that? Previous time liberation of Ukraine took almost two years.
Pretty much everyone and considering the Putin's blundering invasion of Ukraine, either the Russian leadership believed they could win the war in a few days, or they are all retarded.
 

ESay

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Unlike Putin's Russia, Poland is a democracy in which citizens are not sent to prison for disagreeing with the government as they are in Russia, so if the Polish people are unhappy with their leadership, they will change it at the polls; in Putin's Russia, the only way to change the leadership is to kill the leader.

Like Ukraine, the Polish people recall spending 45 years under a brutal Russian occupation which Putin is pining to reimpose on Ukraine and they understand that the little gangster would try to reimpose he horrors of the Russian occupation on Poland if it could, so Poland's aid to Ukraine is in part self serving, as long as Putin's war criminals are unable to conquer Ukraine, Putin will be unable to launch his attack on Poland. All of the civilized world sees Russia's barbaric attack on the Ukrainian people in exactly the same way.
Well, the concept of Intermarium was proposed in Poland in the inter-war period. Maybe they try to realize that on some form now. The main question is whether Poland is able to organize that and be an economy and political leader of this union.
 

toomuchtime_

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Well, the concept of Intermarium was proposed in Poland in the inter-war period. Maybe they try to realize that on some form now. The main question is whether Poland is able to organize that and be an economy and political leader of this union.
Why would they want to do that?
 

ESay

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Why would they want to do that?
Well, maybe that is why countries strive for regional leadership. Two main factors - economy benefits and pride of their elites. There was the time when Poland had this status and it lasted far more than decades.

I don't know what they really want now. But Duda's recent visits to Kiev and mutual claims with Zelensky give some food for thoughts.
 

toomuchtime_

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Well, maybe that is why countries strive for regional leadership. Two main factors - economy benefits and pride of their elites. There was the time when Poland had this status and it lasted far more than decades.

I don't know what they really want now. But Duda's recent visits to Kiev and mutual claims with Zelensky give some food for thoughts.
I think they both want to be safe and secure independent sovereign nations that have been brought close because they both are threatened by Russian aggression. Are you making this suggestion in support of an agreement that would give some of Ukraine to Russia in a final agreement?
 

ESay

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I think they both want to be safe and secure independent sovereign nations that have been brought close because they both are threatened by Russian aggression. Are you making this suggestion in support of an agreement that would give some of Ukraine to Russia in a final agreement?
I don't know what the Poles want, there is no one of them here to read their opinion. And yes, I think that Ukraine will be divided, and the main question is where the line will run. Ukraine can't retake these territories on its own.
 

toomuchtime_

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I don't know what the Poles want, there is no one of them here to read their opinion. And yes, I think that Ukraine will be divided, and the main question is where the line will run. Ukraine can't retake these territories on its own.
The Poles want what all eastern Europeans want, to avoid another brutal Russian occupation.

I'm not sure how you imagine Ukraine will be divided. Ukraine will not be strongarmed again into signing another Minsk agreement and is clearly determined to continue the war until Russia has left Ukraine. At this point Putin has no credibility with the Europeans and they will not make the same mistake with Putin they made with Hitler and there will be no agreement with the West that will hand any part of Ukraine over to Russia.

Furthermore, while the Russian army is fighting an unwinnable war in Ukraine it will be unable to attack NATO states so strong US and European support for Ukraine serves the security interests of the West, so the new normal for Russia is endless war in Ukraine until it withdraws from Ukraine.

Given the abysmal performance of the Russian military thus far and given the spectacular success of the Ukrainian military in first driving the Russian army from Kyiv and now in advancing its counteroffensives in the northeast and the south, it's far too early to write off the possibility they will be able to drive the Russians out of Ukraine.
 

ESay

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The Poles want what all eastern Europeans want, to avoid another brutal Russian occupation.

I'm not sure how you imagine Ukraine will be divided. Ukraine will not be strongarmed again into signing another Minsk agreement and is clearly determined to continue the war until Russia has left Ukraine. At this point Putin has no credibility with the Europeans and they will not make the same mistake with Putin they made with Hitler and there will be no agreement with the West that will hand any part of Ukraine over to Russia.

Furthermore, while the Russian army is fighting an unwinnable war in Ukraine it will be unable to attack NATO states so strong US and European support for Ukraine serves the security interests of the West, so the new normal for Russia is endless war in Ukraine until it withdraws from Ukraine.

Given the abysmal performance of the Russian military thus far and given the spectacular success of the Ukrainian military in first driving the Russian army from Kyiv and now in advancing its counteroffensives in the northeast and the south, it's far too early to write off the possibility they will be able to drive the Russians out of Ukraine.
It won't require any new agreements. The Russian will just annex the territories they will have seized. Ukraine also has resources that expire and they are far from limitless.

Ukraine was good in defence strategy, but an offence campaign is a different thing. I want to remind you that Ukrainian counter-offensives in the North and around Kharkiv are not counter-offensives per se. It was withdrawal of Russian troops and moving them into other directions.

Yes, the Poles want this. But even they should understand that it is impossible to do without strong military and economy regional alliance. Otherwise, it may happen as it was in the WWII when the British and French were in no hurry to defend them.
 

toomuchtime_

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It won't require any new agreements. The Russian will just annex the territories they will have seized. Ukraine also has resources that expire and they are far from limitless.

Ukraine was good in defence strategy, but an offence campaign is a different thing. I want to remind you that Ukrainian counter-offensives in the North and around Kharkiv are not counter-offensives per se. It was withdrawal of Russian troops and moving them into other directions.

Yes, the Poles want this. But even they should understand that it is impossible to do without strong military and economy regional alliance. Otherwise, it may happen as it was in the WWII when the British and French were in no hurry to defend them.
That may be what happened according to Putin News, but in the rest of the world, the Ukrainians first drove the Russians out of artillery range of the city and then drove them across the border back into Russia and and now the offensive is turning south. The Ukrainian offensive began by driving the Russians from the towns and villages around Kyiv and now a much better armed Ukrainian military has begun driving the Russian army from positions in the east and south, and the Russian forces have so far been unable to stop them.

Poland and Ukraine need strong allies and they have them and the last thing they need is advice from Russian imperialists. Russia's new normal will be endless war in Ukraine until it withdraws from Ukraine and there will be no business as usual with Russia until it does.
 

ESay

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That may be what happened according to Putin News, but in the rest of the world, the Ukrainians first drove the Russians out of artillery range of the city and then drove them across the border back into Russia and and now the offensive is turning south. The Ukrainian offensive began by driving the Russians from the towns and villages around Kyiv and now a much better armed Ukrainian military has begun driving the Russian army from positions in the east and south, and the Russian forces have so far been unable to stop them.

Poland and Ukraine need strong allies and they have them and the last thing they need is advice from Russian imperialists. Russia's new normal will be endless war in Ukraine until it withdraws from Ukraine and there will be no business as usual with Russia until it does.
Man, I live in Ukraine. My city was under the siege for a month. I rely not only on news outlets to gather information.
 

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