John Brown - Abolitionist

[rightwinger]

Wrong again Skippy

Yes, the south was always afraid of slave uprising and black men fucking their wives

But John Brown brought it home. It was now a real threat and they panicked
So much so that they felt like they needed to start their own country

Wrong. John Brown was hung, which satisfied most in the South. Sure they disliked the North's hypocrisy on slavery, but the war was solely the responsibility of the murderous psychopath, Dishonest Abe.

Interesting view. Rather than the revisionist history, lets see what actual historians who have reviewed speeches, newspapers, and political events have had to say about the real history

https://www.history.com/topics/abolotionist-movement/john-brown

"In the South, his execution did little to allay spreading fears of slave insurrection and a growing conviction that northern opponents of slavery would continue to stimulate insurrection. Many analysts then and since have concluded that Brown’s raid did much to hasten the coming of the Civil War."

Which makes sense as states had sent out secession commissioners to spread the word of why they were seceding and multiple specifically spoke to John Brown's raid as a reason for pushing secession, as well as multiple states listing the northern push for insurrections as a reason for secession in their own articles of secession.


For Example Georgia who specifically mentioned " For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates." (specifically mentioning John Browns raid and the 5 who escaped north in their "Declaration of causes for secession".

Mississippi had said they " advocate negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst."

And of course Texas with claiming abolitionists "stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides."

But hey, lets just sweep that history under the rug and rewrite it huh?

LOL...yeah REAL historians. Too funny. They keep lying to the American people about how great the mass murdering lying scum Dishonest Abe was. Yet you think we should listen to the historians. LOL..

Open your mind to the truth. Seek it out. Don't let others tell you how to think.

Oh yes, you use those alternative fact historians

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

 

[SandSquid]

Wrong. John Brown was hung, which satisfied most in the South. Sure they disliked the North's hypocrisy on slavery, but the war was solely the responsibility of the murderous psychopath, Dishonest Abe.

Interesting view. Rather than the revisionist history, lets see what actual historians who have reviewed speeches, newspapers, and political events have had to say about the real history

https://www.history.com/topics/abolotionist-movement/john-brown

"In the South, his execution did little to allay spreading fears of slave insurrection and a growing conviction that northern opponents of slavery would continue to stimulate insurrection. Many analysts then and since have concluded that Brown’s raid did much to hasten the coming of the Civil War."

Which makes sense as states had sent out secession commissioners to spread the word of why they were seceding and multiple specifically spoke to John Brown's raid as a reason for pushing secession, as well as multiple states listing the northern push for insurrections as a reason for secession in their own articles of secession.


For Example Georgia who specifically mentioned " For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates." (specifically mentioning John Browns raid and the 5 who escaped north in their "Declaration of causes for secession".

Mississippi had said they " advocate negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst."

And of course Texas with claiming abolitionists "stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides."

But hey, lets just sweep that history under the rug and rewrite it huh?

LOL...yeah REAL historians. Too funny. They keep lying to the American people about how great the mass murdering lying scum Dishonest Abe was. Yet you think we should listen to the historians. LOL..

Open your mind to the truth. Seek it out. Don't let others tell you how to think.

Oh yes, you use those alternative fact historians

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

Well said. And the defense of his appears to boil down to intentional ignorance.


As long as he doesn't read the newspaper archives, the speeches, the minutes of state secession conventions, etc where they are going crazy about John Brown well after his death, then he can say they weren't really upset.

Like as long as I don't read anything about NASA, I can still believe the US has never really had any space program.

Or as long as I choose not to read anything about Europe in the mid 1300s the black plague wasn't really too bad.


It's insane people think that's an ok belief isn't it? I get it. Finding evidence santa doesn't exist kinda sucks when you are a kid. But to just say "nope. I am ignoring reality because it makes me feel better" isn't the answer for me. I'd rather know the real world than ignore reality and live my fantasy lie

 

[Meathead]

How is this character viewed in the US ?

Why is he not a hero ?

The guy was Charles Manson before Charles Manson was Charles Manson.

 

[rightwinger]

Interesting view. Rather than the revisionist history, lets see what actual historians who have reviewed speeches, newspapers, and political events have had to say about the real history

https://www.history.com/topics/abolotionist-movement/john-brown

"In the South, his execution did little to allay spreading fears of slave insurrection and a growing conviction that northern opponents of slavery would continue to stimulate insurrection. Many analysts then and since have concluded that Brown’s raid did much to hasten the coming of the Civil War."

Which makes sense as states had sent out secession commissioners to spread the word of why they were seceding and multiple specifically spoke to John Brown's raid as a reason for pushing secession, as well as multiple states listing the northern push for insurrections as a reason for secession in their own articles of secession.


For Example Georgia who specifically mentioned " For twenty years past the abolitionists and their allies in the Northern States have been engaged in constant efforts to subvert our institutions and to excite insurrection and servile war among us. They have sent emissaries among us for the accomplishment of these purposes. Some of these efforts have received the public sanction of a majority of the leading men of the Republican party in the national councils, the same men who are now proposed as our rulers. These efforts have in one instance led to the actual invasion of one of the slave-holding States, and those of the murderers and incendiaries who escaped public justice by flight have found fraternal protection among our Northern confederates." (specifically mentioning John Browns raid and the 5 who escaped north in their "Declaration of causes for secession".

Mississippi had said they " advocate negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst."

And of course Texas with claiming abolitionists "stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides."

But hey, lets just sweep that history under the rug and rewrite it huh?

LOL...yeah REAL historians. Too funny. They keep lying to the American people about how great the mass murdering lying scum Dishonest Abe was. Yet you think we should listen to the historians. LOL..

Open your mind to the truth. Seek it out. Don't let others tell you how to think.

Oh yes, you use those alternative fact historians

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

Well said. And the defense of his appears to boil down to intentional ignorance.


As long as he doesn't read the newspaper archives, the speeches, the minutes of state secession conventions, etc where they are going crazy about John Brown well after his death, then he can say they weren't really upset.

Like as long as I don't read anything about NASA, I can still believe the US has never really had any space program.

Or as long as I choose not to read anything about Europe in the mid 1300s the black plague wasn't really too bad.


It's insane people think that's an ok belief isn't it? I get it. Finding evidence santa doesn't exist kinda sucks when you are a kid. But to just say "nope. I am ignoring reality because it makes me feel better" isn't the answer for me. I'd rather know the real world than ignore reality and live my fantasy lie

It is all part of the Lost Cause mentality

The South was a noble cause worthy of praise. Instead, the Confederacy was a nation built to preserve the continuation of slavery forever. 4 million of its 9 million people were in bondage.
More like Nazi Germany than a grand experiment

 

[SandSquid]

Now a good question to those knowing his jmpact was did he cause Lincoln to win the election?

The spike spike he drove in the Democratic party was big. Southern dems were now claiming abolitionists were murderous and evil. Those newspapers and stories were crazy. Some falsely reporting he had hundreds asapart of his invasion and that hundreds more we're invsding. In the south they were rebuilding their militias and that Dem convention where they split was all about opposing abolition and fighting to protect slavery vs those who wanted to continue to work with the US.

Without John Brown does that split occur? And if it doesn't, does Lincoln have a chance? (He only took about 40% of the popular vote). He won because the two party system had broken and his opponent split.

 

[SandSquid]

LOL...yeah REAL historians. Too funny. They keep lying to the American people about how great the mass murdering lying scum Dishonest Abe was. Yet you think we should listen to the historians. LOL..

Open your mind to the truth. Seek it out. Don't let others tell you how to think.

Oh yes, you use those alternative fact historians

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

Well said. And the defense of his appears to boil down to intentional ignorance.


As long as he doesn't read the newspaper archives, the speeches, the minutes of state secession conventions, etc where they are going crazy about John Brown well after his death, then he can say they weren't really upset.

Like as long as I don't read anything about NASA, I can still believe the US has never really had any space program.

Or as long as I choose not to read anything about Europe in the mid 1300s the black plague wasn't really too bad.


It's insane people think that's an ok belief isn't it? I get it. Finding evidence santa doesn't exist kinda sucks when you are a kid. But to just say "nope. I am ignoring reality because it makes me feel better" isn't the answer for me. I'd rather know the real world than ignore reality and live my fantasy lie

It is all part of the Lost Cause mentality

The South was a noble cause worthy of praise. Instead, the Confederacy was a nation built to preserve the continuation of slavery forever. 4 million of its 9 million people were in bondage.
More like Nazi Germany than a grand experiment

Agree. Glad today so many of those primary source documents are archived online. Used to be you'd hear a lost cause myth and the only way to counter it was shout louder or hope people went to a major library and pulled out the archives.

Now it's simple to find the founding fathers of the Confederacy over and over in their own words making it crystal clear it was a fight about them protecting and expanding the institution of race based slavery.

It has really dealt a blow to the white supremacists, and forces them now to rely on debunked lies and misinformation rather than trying a more mainstream approach.

So they will try something like a meme.. the one only 3%owned slaves for example to try and minimize it.

Ok but when you look at the online archive of the census in 1860 you can see the mistake. Slaves didn't own slaves. Children and wives didnt either. In a family where you had 15 family members on the family farm and they had 15 slaves, only 10% of that group owned slaves... The father or grandfather. But 100% of that group were either slaves or needed them. Then if the next farm over couldnt afford slaves but would rent them during harvest there's another group.

In reality about 1/3 of households owned slaves based on that census. And slave renting was a common practice on farms that didn't own. And many jobs were based on the existence of slavery as well. There's a reason every single state where slaves made up 20% of the population seceded. And every single state with less did not . That's not just some amazing piece of chance.

 

[rightwinger]

Oh yes, you use those alternative fact historians

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

Well said. And the defense of his appears to boil down to intentional ignorance.


As long as he doesn't read the newspaper archives, the speeches, the minutes of state secession conventions, etc where they are going crazy about John Brown well after his death, then he can say they weren't really upset.

Like as long as I don't read anything about NASA, I can still believe the US has never really had any space program.

Or as long as I choose not to read anything about Europe in the mid 1300s the black plague wasn't really too bad.


It's insane people think that's an ok belief isn't it? I get it. Finding evidence santa doesn't exist kinda sucks when you are a kid. But to just say "nope. I am ignoring reality because it makes me feel better" isn't the answer for me. I'd rather know the real world than ignore reality and live my fantasy lie

It is all part of the Lost Cause mentality

The South was a noble cause worthy of praise. Instead, the Confederacy was a nation built to preserve the continuation of slavery forever. 4 million of its 9 million people were in bondage.
More like Nazi Germany than a grand experiment

Agree. Glad today so many of those primary source documents are archived online. Used to be you'd hear a lost cause myth and the only way to counter it was shout louder or hope people went to a major library and pulled out the archives.

Now it's simple to find the founding fathers of the Confederacy over and over in their own words making it crystal clear it was a fight about them protecting and expanding the institution of race based slavery.

It has really dealt a blow to the white supremacists, and forces them now to rely on debunked lies and misinformation rather than trying a more mainstream approach.

So they will try something like a meme.. the one only 3%owned slaves for example to try and minimize it.

Ok but when you look at the online archive of the census in 1860 you can see the mistake. Slaves didn't own slaves. Children and wives didnt either. In a family where you had 15 family members on the family farm and they had 15 slaves, only 10% of that group owned slaves... The father or grandfather. But 100% of that group were either slaves or needed them. Then if the next farm over couldnt afford slaves but would rent them during harvest there's another group.

In reality about 1/3 of households owned slaves based on that census. And slave renting was a common practice on farms that didn't own. And many jobs were based on the existence of slavery as well. There's a reason every single state where slaves made up 20% of the population seceded. And every single state with less did not . That's not just some amazing piece of chance.

Another common Lost Cause claim is that......you know, blacks owned slaves too
You know, blacks fought for the confederacy too

You know, blacks participated in the slave trade too

All in an attempt to prove that blacks were equally culpable

 

[SandSquid]

No...you believe shit that isn't so. A most common mental illness with statists.

Love your spin on John Brown....

After halting his revolt plans and executing him, they slapped each other on the back and said.......glad that is over

Well said. And the defense of his appears to boil down to intentional ignorance.


As long as he doesn't read the newspaper archives, the speeches, the minutes of state secession conventions, etc where they are going crazy about John Brown well after his death, then he can say they weren't really upset.

Like as long as I don't read anything about NASA, I can still believe the US has never really had any space program.

Or as long as I choose not to read anything about Europe in the mid 1300s the black plague wasn't really too bad.


It's insane people think that's an ok belief isn't it? I get it. Finding evidence santa doesn't exist kinda sucks when you are a kid. But to just say "nope. I am ignoring reality because it makes me feel better" isn't the answer for me. I'd rather know the real world than ignore reality and live my fantasy lie

It is all part of the Lost Cause mentality

The South was a noble cause worthy of praise. Instead, the Confederacy was a nation built to preserve the continuation of slavery forever. 4 million of its 9 million people were in bondage.
More like Nazi Germany than a grand experiment

Agree. Glad today so many of those primary source documents are archived online. Used to be you'd hear a lost cause myth and the only way to counter it was shout louder or hope people went to a major library and pulled out the archives.

Now it's simple to find the founding fathers of the Confederacy over and over in their own words making it crystal clear it was a fight about them protecting and expanding the institution of race based slavery.

It has really dealt a blow to the white supremacists, and forces them now to rely on debunked lies and misinformation rather than trying a more mainstream approach.

So they will try something like a meme.. the one only 3%owned slaves for example to try and minimize it.

Ok but when you look at the online archive of the census in 1860 you can see the mistake. Slaves didn't own slaves. Children and wives didnt either. In a family where you had 15 family members on the family farm and they had 15 slaves, only 10% of that group owned slaves... The father or grandfather. But 100% of that group were either slaves or needed them. Then if the next farm over couldnt afford slaves but would rent them during harvest there's another group.

In reality about 1/3 of households owned slaves based on that census. And slave renting was a common practice on farms that didn't own. And many jobs were based on the existence of slavery as well. There's a reason every single state where slaves made up 20% of the population seceded. And every single state with less did not . That's not just some amazing piece of chance.

Another common Lost Cause claim is that......you know, blacks owned slaves too
You know, blacks fought for the confederacy too

You know, blacks participated in the slave trade too

All in an attempt to prove that blacks were equally culpable

True. And as more and more information comes out there too the truth comes to the surface.

States were passing laws that slaves couldn't ever be freed. The largest growth of black slave owners occurred after these laws were passed. Freedmen and families forced to buy their children and wives to get them. Kinda sad that is used to support the southern beliefs at the time.

Or the fighting for the Confederacy. Sure men took their slaves and blacks desperate for work to survive would help cook and clean. But the Confederate Congress only passed that blacks could join their military about three weeks before Lee's surrender. in his own letters you can see him in his final weeks, wondering what he would name blacks fighting in his army if they started doing that. Yet somehow we're supposed to believe that they've been there for years, he just had no clue.

In the end there was one black division for the Confederacy, which they wanted to put on parade I believe in Richmond before it fell. They were unable to find enough uniforms and weapons to even use them in a parade before they surrendered.

You could talk about Louisiana's black militia. Who actually wanted to support their state in the cause. And when they ask to help transport POWs, the government found out that they had a black militia, forced to them to give up their weapons and immediately passed a law that all militias had to be white. They were some of the first black troops to fight in the war. As they joined the union and signed up for the United States army.

Like the Secretary of State for the Confederacy had said earlier in the war when asked about allowing blacks to fight. "What are we fighting for if not for our property". It was only out of desperation at the very end when they finally relented on that stance

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

He was hanged as a traitor. Sooner or later liberals will rehabilitate him and make him a hero.

The Confederate leaders should have been hanged as traitors
They caused 600,000 deaths

Damn those Democrats.

Yup, well they were Southern Democrats. But that party which has sided with Southern Conservatism in the US keeps ending up on the wrong side of history when it comes to human rights.

Parties switched sides bullshit myth again. Normal people call that historical revisionism.

Ahh yes. Because the Democrats are still the party of conservative Southerners.

And Republicans still call themselves the progressive party


I mean Dems are the ones still flying rebel flags at their elections and such today right?


Oh wait a minute... Lol .

No the Conservative Democrats (what they called themselves after the war) are no more. Republicans don't side with being Progressive politically anymore.

All of those racist Southern democratic politicians stayed Democrat only Strum Thurmond became a Republican. The South didn't switch majority Democrat until the early 80's almost 20 years after the Civil Rights movement. If they switched sides for racist reasons it would have happened sooner. Conclusion "the Parties switched sides" is complete bullshit. You either know its a lie and perpetuate it for political means or your an unknowingly historically retarded parrot.

 

[SandSquid]

The Confederate leaders should have been hanged as traitors
They caused 600,000 deaths

Damn those Democrats.

Yup, well they were Southern Democrats. But that party which has sided with Southern Conservatism in the US keeps ending up on the wrong side of history when it comes to human rights.

Parties switched sides bullshit myth again. Normal people call that historical revisionism.

Ahh yes. Because the Democrats are still the party of conservative Southerners.

And Republicans still call themselves the progressive party


I mean Dems are the ones still flying rebel flags at their elections and such today right?


Oh wait a minute... Lol .

No the Conservative Democrats (what they called themselves after the war) are no more. Republicans don't side with being Progressive politically anymore.

All of those racist Southern democratic politicians stayed Democrat only Strum Thurmond became a Republican. The South didn't switch majority Democrat until the early 80's almost 20 years after the Civil Rights movement. If they switched sides for racist reasons it would have happened sooner. Conclusion "the Parties switched sides" is complete bullshit. You either know its a lie and perpetuate it for political means or your an unknowingly historically retarded parrot.

No actually many turned over to become Dixiecrats.

And campaigned with Barry Goldwater claiming that "LBJ had abandoned their conservative roots". Many lost their seats to the new push for conservativism in the republican party.

But if you think that Democrats are still the conservative party.... Sure thing bro

 

[SandSquid]

It's why when Republicans bring up this argument they have to stop in the '60s.

they have to try their best to hide the civil rights restoration act of 1987 and the civil rights act of 1991 and pretend that they never exist because they show a complete 180 on voting by party on civil rights.


Remind me. On those two acts, which party in the Senate was responsible for 100% of the Nay votes?

 

[SandSquid]

Or you could just look at where every single vote to keep rebel flags flying in govt buildings comes from... It's the Democrats right? The party that was on that side???


No wait, there's a complete 180 there.. but no change lol. Don't look at reality. We need to redefine that.

we just need to keep saying that Democrats are still that party calling themselves conservative, fighting for smaller government, lower taxes, better border security, less socialist programs, and taking a stand for its voters in the south in Midwest rural areas.

 

[RandomPoster]

I'm descended from him, so he couldn't have been all bad. He seems like a guy who pursued a noble goal. Granted, I understand why the Democrats hold a grudge to this day considering what he contributed to in regards to the eventually freeing of their slaves, except it's not like they can't still run plantations in some of the most heavily populated areas of the country.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

How is this character viewed in the US ?

Why is he not a hero ?

The guy was Charles Manson before Charles Manson was Charles Manson.

Slave owners were legitimate targets.

 

[SandSquid]

I'm descended from him, so he couldn't have been all bad. He seems like a guy who pursued a noble goal. Granted, I understand why the Democrats hold a grudge to this day considering what he contributed to in regards to the eventually freeing of their slaves, except it's not like they can't still run plantations in some of the most heavily populated areas of the country.

The interesting thing is Democrats don't seem to be holding a grudge, just look at the postings here and who is calling him Charles Manson and saying he should have been hung. Maybe some of the old school southern conservative Dems, but I don't think they are a very large number there.

There are some Republicans who do see him still as a hero. But not many Dems I've seen calling him evil.

Remember, Dems are not southern conservative anymore. The party which has espoused that group of people through history has changed many times. Anti-federalists, Democrat-Republicans, Democrats, Southern Democrats, Conservative Democrats, Dixiecrats, and now Republicans.

 

[Meathead]

How is this character viewed in the US ?

Why is he not a hero ?

The guy was Charles Manson before Charles Manson was Charles Manson.

Slave owners were legitimate targets.

This from some fag in Wales over 150 years on?

 

[Mike Dwight]

It Could be Why Robert E Lee the Commander who stormed and took out the murderer, then surrendered his army at Appomatox courthouse 5 years later! I hate cuerilla warfare! I just Hate guerilla warfare! My only mistake is I had a military education! Like, you know, you're a plumber and you just run into a lot of pipes and screwy ones and so forth.

OJ Probably stole some stuff and Probably killed some white women and Probably should go back to where he came from, but he Ain't Really Black he's OJ

 

[rightwinger]

I'm descended from him, so he couldn't have been all bad. He seems like a guy who pursued a noble goal. Granted, I understand why the Democrats hold a grudge to this day considering what he contributed to in regards to the eventually freeing of their slaves, except it's not like they can't still run plantations in some of the most heavily populated areas of the country.

The interesting thing is Democrats don't seem to be holding a grudge, just look at the postings here and who is calling him Charles Manson and saying he should have been hung. Maybe some of the old school southern conservative Dems, but I don't think they are a very large number there.

There are some Republicans who do see him still as a hero. But not many Dems I've seen calling him evil.

Remember, Dems are not southern conservative anymore. The party which has espoused that group of people through history has changed many times. Anti-federalists, Democrat-Republicans, Democrats, Southern Democrats, Conservative Democrats, Dixiecrats, and now Republicans.

It is today's Republican Party who is glorifying the Confederacy and demanding their flag be flown

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm descended from him, so he couldn't have been all bad. He seems like a guy who pursued a noble goal. Granted, I understand why the Democrats hold a grudge to this day considering what he contributed to in regards to the eventually freeing of their slaves, except it's not like they can't still run plantations in some of the most heavily populated areas of the country.

What the hell does descending from someone have to do with whether or not that person is good or bad? You don't think murderers are capable of reproducing?

He pursued his goals through murder and violence. I'm gonna say that any "nobility" about his goals is cancelled out by the evil of his means.

Geez, get a history book.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How is this character viewed in the US ?

Why is he not a hero ?

The guy was Charles Manson before Charles Manson was Charles Manson.

Slave owners were legitimate targets.

Sorry, but there's nothing "legitimate" about murder. If you weren't so utterly lacking in both brains and morality, you wouldn't require someone to actually tell you that.