Jews and Political Correctness

[GHook93]

Forgive me, comrade, didn't you mean to say "[y]ou sand N#gger fuck, get your story straight! PCness protects ARABS and MUSLIMS, your power will erode as the west inevitably gets off oil! Sorry sucka, but your people will be back at the bottom soon. Switzerland and France were the starting points." That is what you communicated to me via reputation comment, after all.

That was rep point, not a PM or visitor message!

 

[The Rabbi]

No clearer.
I am waiting to see any "inconsistency" here.

The inconsistency is quite apparent; those who accuse others of bigotry towards standard racial minorities in the U.S. on account of policy positions that they adopt are themselves accused of rigidly upholding "political correctness"; those who accuse others of bigotry towards Jews on account of policy positions that they adopt are lauded for it. There's plenty of complaints about Al Sharpton on this board, but few about the far more unscrupulous Alan Dershowitz, who routinely accuses opponents of "anti-Semitism" (despite the fact that Arabs are Semites).
/QUOTE]

I still can't understand your "point" other than that Jews are hypocrtites (hypocrisy being the last sin in modern America).
It of course is nonsense. Jews are no more hypocrites than anyone else. Certainly no more so than Arabs who claim to support Palestinians in Palestine while kicking their asses in Kuwait and Saudi.

 

[Diuretic]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

 

[GHook93]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

In general NO, but most people don't leave it there.

I think most American Israeli supporters disagree with the settlement expansion. I personally think its bad policy. Either the Jews are going to incorporate the Palestinians into Israel in a one state solution or they are not. If they are going ahead with the 2 state solution, then they need to start respecting Palestinian claims to land.

 

[GHook93]

Let me ask you this, did you pick a noble user name like Saladin because he retook Jerusalem from the Crusaders? I mean is that what you think is going to happen?

 

[Diuretic]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

In general NO, but most people don't leave it there.

I think most American Israeli supporters disagree with the settlement expansion. I personally think its bad policy. Either the Jews are going to incorporate the Palestinians into Israel in a one state solution or they are not. If they are going ahead with the 2 state solution, then they need to start respecting Palestinian claims to land.

And that's fair enough. The issues can be discussed without resort to racist insults. This is more about the Netanyahu government than it is about Jews and Judaism I think, so why they would be brought into it I don't know.

 

[The Rabbi]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

It depends.
If you think the policy is counter-productive to producing peace then you aren't anti-Jew. Misguided and misinformed, maybe. But it is a legitimate debate point.
If you think the policy is intended to subjugate the innocent Palestinians who have suffered oppression under the Israeli yoke then I'd say you need to try on a brown shirt for size.

 

[Diuretic]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

It depends.
If you think the policy is counter-productive to producing peace then you aren't anti-Jew. Misguided and misinformed, maybe. But it is a legitimate debate point.
If you think the policy is intended to subjugate the innocent Palestinians who have suffered oppression under the Israeli yoke then I'd say you need to try on a brown shirt for size.

Interesting ideas. And if I can say so they illustrate the difficulties in the debate. It's too easy for any of us who are not Israelis or Palestinians to sum it all up in a simplistic manner. I'm all over the place on it personally. I don't see how extending the settlements is going to be helpful to resolving the "Middle East issue" (whatever that might mean). But then I can see it as a bargaining chip. I think there's some validity to the argument that there is Israeli oppression but then Israelis are being blown up by Palestinian suicide bombers. Bit chicken and egg there. Anyway I'm right off point now.

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Interesting observation, I never considered it that way.
Where in that terminology do terrorists fit?
I find it hard to accept that they are all ultra-leftists; the group seems large enough that they must have at least some diversity of opinion, except of course about the desirability of killing for the 'cause'

 

[Shogun]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

It depends.
If you think the policy is counter-productive to producing peace then you aren't anti-Jew. Misguided and misinformed, maybe. But it is a legitimate debate point.
If you think the policy is intended to subjugate the innocent Palestinians who have suffered oppression under the Israeli yoke then I'd say you need to try on a brown shirt for size.

Interesting ideas. And if I can say so they illustrate the difficulties in the debate. It's too easy for any of us who are not Israelis or Palestinians to sum it all up in a simplistic manner. I'm all over the place on it personally. I don't see how extending the settlements is going to be helpful to resolving the "Middle East issue" (whatever that might mean). But then I can see it as a bargaining chip. I think there's some validity to the argument that there is Israeli oppression but then Israelis are being blown up by Palestinian suicide bombers. Bit chicken and egg there. Anyway I'm right off point now.

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Strange bedfellows indeed.

the flaw in your logic is that you assume there is an equivilent hatred of jews between ethnic equality-loving lefties and jew hating righties. The punchline being, of course, if jews were being treated in America like palis are in israel we lefties would be the FIRST to fight for jewish equality. Now, ask the usual stooge suspects if they have any interest in doing the same in israel. The irony of rationalized jewish hatred of non-jews in israel is the real joke of your observation.

 

[The Rabbi]

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Interesting observation, I never considered it that way.
Where in that terminology do terrorists fit?
I find it hard to accept that they are all ultra-leftists; the group seems large enough that they must have at least some diversity of opinion, except of course about the desirability of killing for the 'cause'

I guess you would have to class them as "ultra rightists" since they tend to support oppressive totalitarian regimes, like the PLO, Hamas, etc.

 

[Shogun]

Anti-Jew - ultra-rightists who hold a deep-seated, particularly European historical prejudice which co-opted Christianity in order to protect the vested economic interests of the aristocracy against the emergent merchant classes in late feudalism. Perpetrators and perpetuators of Der Dolchstoß mythology.

Anti-Jew - ultra-leftists who will automatically support "oppressed" peoples without bothering to think through the issues first.

Interesting observation, I never considered it that way.
Where in that terminology do terrorists fit?
I find it hard to accept that they are all ultra-leftists; the group seems large enough that they must have at least some diversity of opinion, except of course about the desirability of killing for the 'cause'

I guess you would have to class them as "ultra rightists" since they tend to support oppressive totalitarian regimes, like the PLO, Hamas, etc.

....or the state of israel.....


tell me more about how ONLY JEWS qualify for ethnic equality, pencil dick!

 

[Kalam]

I have gathered that accusations of racially or ethnically discriminatory views against minorities on the basis of certain policy positions (such as opposition to positive discrimination programs as "affirmative action") is somewhat anathema in the U.S. and subject to counter-accusations of stifling active discussion through "political correctness." Yet, it also strikes me that many critics of Israeli state policy (or more seriously, full-on anti-Zionism) will inevitably encounter accusations of bigoted hatred of Jews. What is the cause of this inconsistency? And is it not actually somewhat more "racist" to assume that Jews are some homogenous bloc that will all conform to the same political ideology? Isn't that the sort of ugly "group thinking" that is the basis of racism?

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust. They're wary of taking positions that could be seen as "anti-Semitic" in the wake of approximately 2,000 years of Jews being persecuted by Europeans. Christians who are more religious may support Israel because they see its existence as a necessary part of their fatuous eschatological schemes. In light of this, it's sort of ironic that Israel's detractors are accused of bigotry while many of its supporters see Jews as nothing more than tools for bringing about the Second Coming. Basically, my perception is that "anti-Semite" is a catch-all accusation directed at critics of Israel by those who find themselves unable or unwilling to defend their support of the country in an honest discussion. In this sense, it's a lot like America's pejorative use of "socialist" and "fascist" to describe those whose political beliefs are seen as too liberal or too conservative, respectively.

 

[Kalam]

Those who made comments about the clarity of the OP should be embarrassed that their command of the English language is apparently inferior to that of a foreigner.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have gathered that accusations of racially or ethnically discriminatory views against minorities on the basis of certain policy positions (such as opposition to positive discrimination programs as "affirmative action") is somewhat anathema in the U.S. and subject to counter-accusations of stifling active discussion through "political correctness." Yet, it also strikes me that many critics of Israeli state policy (or more seriously, full-on anti-Zionism) will inevitably encounter accusations of bigoted hatred of Jews. What is the cause of this inconsistency? And is it not actually somewhat more "racist" to assume that Jews are some homogenous bloc that will all conform to the same political ideology? Isn't that the sort of ugly "group thinking" that is the basis of racism?

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel.

If that's so then its a pretty poor strategy since it obviously fails. I have never seen as many out and out anti-semites and Jew-haters as on this board.

Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust. They're wary of taking positions that could be seen as "anti-Semitic" in the wake of approximately 2,000 years of Jews being persecuted by Europeans.

Or they see Israel as the sole democracy in the region. And they see Israel as the sole country that actually has civil rights. And they see Israel as the only country which has been a reliable ally of the U.S. Your comments reveal more about you and your bias than anything else.

Christians who are more religious may support Israel because they see its existence as a necessary part of their fatuous eschatological schemes. In light of this, it's sort of ironic that Israel's detractors are accused of bigotry while many of its supporters see Jews as nothing more than tools for bringing about the Second Coming. Basically, my perception is that "anti-Semite" is a catch-all accusation directed at critics of Israel by those who find themselves unable or unwilling to defend their support of the country in an honest discussion. In this sense, it's a lot like America's pejorative use of "socialist" and "fascist" to describe those whose political beliefs are seen as too liberal or too conservative, respectively.

No one has any problem defending Israel on the merits. But people ought to have a problem when the debate becomes so one-sided that Israel is criticised for not being a country of saints. Or when facts are distorted and manipulated, which the media does often.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Accusations of anti-Semitism are used almost exclusively on USMB in an attempt to stifle criticism of Israel. Westerners who support Israel do so for a variety of reasons; my guess is that many do because of a pervading sense of collective guilt over the West's failure to prevent the Holocaust.

Some however reserve the accusation of antisemitism for people like Shogun who froth at the mouth and spew racial epithets at every turn.
Sunni Man is, from my reading of his posts in other threads, a holocaust denier who skirts the edge but manages to retain a semblance of reason in many cases.
Kalam is opposed to Israel and supportive of Islamic causes in general, but he actively opposes what he calls heretical views of Islam that promote violence.

There is a reason only Shogun, of the three listed above, is on my ignore list and while it extends past his antisemitism that particular bit of idiocy only detracts from his posts. I realize I should not blame him, he probably started smoking marijuana before he was twelve, but I have no desire to try and use my efforts to help a hopeless case like him.

 

[jillian]

Sunni Man is, from my reading of his posts in other threads, a holocaust denier who skirts the edge but manages to retain a semblance of reason in many cases.

yeah, cause when sunni says the only thing worse than finding out your father is charles manson would be finding out he's a jew... or all jews should be dead, he says it so nicely....

 

[Sunni Man]

Sunni Man is, from my reading of his posts in other threads, a holocaust denier who skirts the edge but manages to retain a semblance of reason in many cases.

yeah, cause when sunni says the only thing worse than finding out your father is charles manson would be finding out he's a jew... or all jews should be dead, he says it so nicely....

Jillian, I have told you before that my comment was said in a joking manner. And I even had a smiley face after it to show it was sarcasm.

Plus, quit making up lies.

You will NEVER see me post that all Jews should be dead.

NEVER said that, and NEVER will say that.

Yet you keep posting this lie over and over.

 

[GHook93]

If I criticise current Israeli policy on the extension of settlements into Palestinian territory does that make me a critic of Israeli policy or does it make me anti-Jew?

In general NO, but most people don't leave it there.

I think most American Israeli supporters disagree with the settlement expansion. I personally think its bad policy. Either the Jews are going to incorporate the Palestinians into Israel in a one state solution or they are not. If they are going ahead with the 2 state solution, then they need to start respecting Palestinian claims to land.

And that's fair enough. The issues can be discussed without resort to racist insults. This is more about the Netanyahu government than it is about Jews and Judaism I think, so why they would be brought into it I don't know.

Its a very complicated issue. Its kind of like how American politician need to placate and deal with illegal immigration and border security delicately. The majority of Americans are against illegal immigration and want border security, but their is a large influencial group within the latino community that sway votes away from any politician who comes out against illegal immigration and for border security.

All the polls show that the majority of Israelis are for settlement reduction and a 2 state solution in which the West Bank becomes part of Palestine; however, the settler vote is large, loud and motivated. So like our politicians placate illegal immigration so Israeli politicians with the settlers. Sometimes the unintended consequence of democracy is a minority views gets placated to!

 

[toomuchtime_]

In general NO, but most people don't leave it there.

I think most American Israeli supporters disagree with the settlement expansion. I personally think its bad policy. Either the Jews are going to incorporate the Palestinians into Israel in a one state solution or they are not. If they are going ahead with the 2 state solution, then they need to start respecting Palestinian claims to land.

And that's fair enough. The issues can be discussed without resort to racist insults. This is more about the Netanyahu government than it is about Jews and Judaism I think, so why they would be brought into it I don't know.

Its a very complicated issue. Its kind of like how American politician need to placate and deal with illegal immigration and border security delicately. The majority of Americans are against illegal immigration and want border security, but their is a large influencial group within the latino community that sway votes away from any politician who comes out against illegal immigration and for border security.

All the polls show that the majority of Israelis are for settlement reduction and a 2 state solution in which the West Bank becomes part of Palestine; however, the settler vote is large, loud and motivated. So like our politicians placate illegal immigration so Israeli politicians with the settlers. Sometimes the unintended consequence of democracy is a minority views gets placated to!

With regard to West bank land, it is not complicated at all. The Israeli position today is almost exactly the same as it was under Rabin: an undivided Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and in any final settlement, Israel will retain the four major Israeli towns established in the West Bank, the boundaries of which were laid out more than a generation ago and which in total comprise only about 5% of the West Bank. I have seen no polls that indicate Israelis are willing to "reduce" any of these four West Bank Israeli towns, and every Israeli government, whether on the left or the right, has assumed these towns would remain a part of Israel and be formally incorporated in the state in any final settlement.

The polls show only that Israeli opinion is divided on activity outside the boundaries of these four West Bank Israeli towns and East Jerusalem.