Jewish Food For Thought - "Selichot" begins...

[Sunni Man]

Question is not weather Jews will forgive the Nazis or not, since one simply fact is forgotten- The Nazis never asked to be forgiven.

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

Why am I to forgive someone who continues to harm me?

Hitler is dead.

True story........

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Serious question: "When will the jews forgive Hitler and the nazis?" ..

I am not speaking for Jews and any particular group, however, I have found forgiveness to be a process. The act of forgiveness is not like instant coffee it takes time and consideration, personal growth, detachment, self love and love of others; to name a few aspects of what forgiveness means to me.

That is alot of wisdom you have there, Connery. I have my own salvation to work out here and know that it does begin with walking in forgiveness. The other side of that is searching my own heart for where I've offended others. I'm not speaking of denying the truth but rather my delivery of it. (which has been quite severe in the past) In that - I did apologise to the Muslims a day or so before Selichot to get myself (and them) free of all the bitterness and it has been liberating.

I'm not in agreement with them on what they believe but neither do I find it necessary to fight with them about it anymore. I'm over it.
- Jeri

 

[CMike]

Question is not weather Jews will forgive the Nazis or not, since one simply fact is forgotten- The Nazis never asked to be forgiven.

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

You missed something very important in the animation.

The person asked to be forgiven.

You don't have to forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven.

Also the nazis can't ask for forgiveness from the people they murdered.

There are two kinds of sins in Judaism.

1) Sins against G-D

2) Sins against your fellow man

Sins against G-D you can ask forgiveness directly to G-D.

Sins against your fellow man you have to first get forgiveness from the person you sinned against.

Also, you need to sincerely mean it and committ to not doing it again.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

Why am I to forgive someone who continues to harm me?

Hitler is dead.

True story........

I'm very proud of you, Sunni, for watching the cartoon. You continue to amaze me. p.s. could you ask Hoffstra to watch it? I have a feeling he could benefit from the lesson in the video.

- Jeri

 

[Connery]

Serious question: "When will the jews forgive Hitler and the nazis?" ..

I am not speaking for Jews and any particular group, however, I have found forgiveness to be a process. The act of forgiveness is not like instant coffee it takes time and consideration, personal growth, detachment, self love and love of others; to name a few aspects of what forgiveness means to me.

That is alot of wisdom you have there, Connery. I have my own salvation to work out here and know that it does begin with walking in forgiveness. The other side of that is searching my own heart for where I've offended others. I'm not speaking of denying the truth but rather my delivery of it. (which has been quite severe in the past) In that - I did apologise to the Muslims a day or so before Serichot to get myself (and them) free of all the bitterness and it has been liberating.

I'm not in agreement with them on what they believe but neither do I find it necessary to fight with them about it anymore. I'm over it.
- Jeri

I agree Jeri, there is no group that can claim they have not harmed another in some manner, whether intentionally or unintentionally, as a whole or through their members who represented that group.

The more I hold onto the harm done to me the more of my soul, my mind and my body I give to those who have harmed me.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Question is not weather Jews will forgive the Nazis or not, since one simply fact is forgotten- The Nazis never asked to be forgiven.

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

I have to agree with you about this, Connery, because of my own experience with it. The people who harmed me the deepest have never asked for forgiveness. Nevertheless, I knew that I was damning myself for the unforgiveness I was holding in my heart every single time I prayed the Lords Prayer. So I asked G-d to forgive them through me. I was willing but lacked the strength to do it.

Now this is pertaining to my own faith and forgiveness - in the Lords prayer we pray, Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin ( trespass ) against us.

So there it is. I have to do it even if they don't apologise to me and ask me for my forgiveness.

I know of a man on his death bed who I did lead to the Lord and he could not find his salvation until he had forgiven his ex wife. He told me he could not forgive her. I said why not say, G-d, I cannot forgive her but I am willing to let you forgive her through me!

I asked him, would you be willing to do that? He said, "Sure!" Immediately after he spoke that one word, "Sure!" .... he told me of what joy flooded his soul as he knew he had been reconciled to G-d. I was so happy for the man I cannot tell you the joy I felt in that moment.

Shortly afterwards...... He told me he was healed! I misunderstood! I thought he meant his body was healed too! He died shortly after and the Lord let me know it was his soul that was healed - restored. Not his body. He is in heaven now. ( true story )

 

[Sunni Man]

Why am I to forgive someone who continues to harm me?

Hitler is dead.

True story........

I'm very proud of you, Sunni, for watching the cartoon. You continue to amaze me. p.s. could you ask Hoffstra to watch it? I have a feeling he could benefit from the lesson in the video.

Years ago I attended a Messianic Christian church that celebrated all of the Jewish festivals and many of the members where jews whom had become Christians.

Plus, for a couple of tears I visited a synagogue and studied the Tanakh with a Rabbi.

So yes, I am very well versed in Judaic theology and the wisdom teachings. ..

Tanakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Connery]

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

I have to agree with you about this, Connery, because of my own experience with it. The people who harmed me the deepest have never asked for forgiveness. Nevertheless, I knew that I was damning myself for the unforgiveness I was holding in my heart every single time I prayed the Lords Prayer. So I asked G-d to forgive them through me. I was willing but lacked the strength to do it.

Now this is pertaining to my own faith and forgiveness - in the Lords prayer we pray, Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin ( trespass ) against us.

So there it is. I have to do it even if they don't apologise to me and ask me for my forgiveness.

I know of a man on his death bed who I did lead to the Lord and he could not find his salvation until he had forgiven his ex wife. He told me he could not forgive her. I said why not say, G-d, I cannot forgive her but I am willing to let you forgive her through me!

I asked him, would you be willing to do that? He said, "Sure!" Immediately after he spoke that one word, "Sure!" .... he told me of what joy flooded his soul as he knew he had been reconciled to G-d. I was so happy for the man I cannot tell you the joy I felt in that moment.

Shortly afterwards...... He told me he was healed! I misunderstood! I thought he meant his body was healed too! He died shortly after and the Lord let me know it was his soul that was healed - restored. Not his body. He is in heaven now. ( true story )

To me, it matters not what an individual's religious tradition may be or by what means they chose to take the road to forgiveness, willingness is the key and is such for a great many things. As human beings we can only do what we can in out faulted manner as long as I am willing to have an open mind and an open heart the foundation for a path to forgiveness and inner peace has been paved and is ready for me to take those very difficult steps.

 

[Lipush]

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

Why am I to forgive someone who continues to harm me?

Hitler is dead.

True story........

Nazism is alive.

True story.

 

[Lipush]

Question is not weather Jews will forgive the Nazis or not, since one simply fact is forgotten- The Nazis never asked to be forgiven.

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

That's true, but in most cases, not all. When you're harmed forgivness is needed to find inner peace. But when the same person keeps harming you over and over, and not only doesn't feel sorrow, but is at times even overjoyed, then forgivness can also be translated into weakness.

The idea of Slichot is that each person achnoledges(sp?) his or her wrong doing, and tells God, "Even if I do not remember all my wrong doings, I take responsibility for them", it's a starting point that makes it much easier to forgive.

that would NOT be the case that the sin is made in malice

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Question is not weather Jews will forgive the Nazis or not, since one simply fact is forgotten- The Nazis never asked to be forgiven.

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

You missed something very important in the animation.

The person asked to be forgiven.

You don't have to forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven.

Also the nazis can't ask for forgiveness from the people they murdered.

There are two kinds of sins in Judaism.

1) Sins against G-D

2) Sins against your fellow man

Sins against G-D you can ask forgiveness directly to G-D.

Sins against your fellow man you have to first get forgiveness from the person you sinned against.

Also, you need to sincerely mean it and committ to not doing it again.

Mike, I need to ask you a question. I do know in my own book - new testament - Jesus said that if your brother sins against you AND asks for your forgiveness than you must forgive them ( even if they do it again - and come to you again asking forgiveness 7 x 70s times! ) but I do not find that he said forgive them if they didn't ask for it, yet in the Lords prayer it says I'll be forgiven as I forgive others. So that is something that is a mystery to me. What I decided upon was I would do it whether they asked for it or not and so far it has turned out pretty well except that my heart still hurts at times over the fact they never have apologised or changed. - Jeri.

 

[Sunni Man]

Why am I to forgive someone who continues to harm me?

Hitler is dead.

True story........

Nazism is alive.

True story.

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

 

[Connery]

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

That's true, but in most cases, not all. When you're harmed forgivness is needed to find inner peace. But when the same person keeps harming you over and over, and not only doesn't feel sorrow, but is at times even overjoyed, then forgivness can also be translated into weakness.

The idea of Slichot is that each person achnoledges(sp?) his or her wrong doing, and tells God, "Even if I do not remember all my wrong doings, I take responsibility for them", it's a starting point that makes it much easier to forgive.

that would NOT be the case that the sin is made in malice

The first question is ask myself is how much power over me to I want to give these people? The second question is how effective do I want to be in finding the solution to ending what these people wish to do to me? I hold on to their hate then I am helping them in their quest to destroy or and what I am.

 

[Lipush]

Hitler is dead.

True story........

Nazism is alive.

True story.

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

He killed millions of God's children.

Is it my job to forgive him?

 

[Lipush]

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

That's true, but in most cases, not all. When you're harmed forgivness is needed to find inner peace. But when the same person keeps harming you over and over, and not only doesn't feel sorrow, but is at times even overjoyed, then forgivness can also be translated into weakness.

The idea of Slichot is that each person achnoledges(sp?) his or her wrong doing, and tells God, "Even if I do not remember all my wrong doings, I take responsibility for them", it's a starting point that makes it much easier to forgive.

that would NOT be the case that the sin is made in malice

The first question is ask myself is how much power over me to I want to give these people? The second question is how effective do I want to be in finding the solution to ending what these people wish to do to me? I hold on to their hate then I am helping them in their quest to destroy or and what I am.

That is true, but when does forgivness mean you drop your guard?

 

[CMike]

Hitler is dead.

True story........

Nazism is alive.

True story.

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

Has he asked for forgivesness?

 

[Sunni Man]

Nazism is alive.

True story.

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

Has he asked for forgivesness?

News Flash: he is dead.

But still, shouldn't he be forgiven by the jewish people?? ..

 

[CMike]

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

Has he asked for forgivesness?

News Flash: he is dead.

But still, shouldn't he be forgiven by the jewish people?? ..

No. Why?

 

[Lipush]

So do you now forgive Hitler for allegedly harming the jews? ..

Has he asked for forgivesness?

News Flash: he is dead.

But still, shouldn't he be forgiven by the jewish people?? ..

He killed millions of Jews.

The only one to forgive him is God, since against God he committed such a crime.

Judaism doesn't say to turn the other cheek.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

According to the OP's hebrew video cartoon.

You are to forgive with No preconditions. ..

I agree with this statement, to place conditions is to damned into eternal resentment and angst.

That's true, but in most cases, not all. When you're harmed forgivness is needed to find inner peace. But when the same person keeps harming you over and over, and not only doesn't feel sorrow, but is at times even overjoyed, then forgivness can also be translated into weakness.

The idea of Slichot is that each person achnoledges(sp?) his or her wrong doing, and tells God, "Even if I do not remember all my wrong doings, I take responsibility for them", it's a starting point that makes it much easier to forgive.

that would NOT be the case that the sin is made in malice

I do understand what you are saying and there are those types of individuals in my life through extended family - which I try to avoid so they have no further chance to cause me harm. I'm polite but I keep my distance... then there are some situations that cannot be avoided also, Lipush.


Let me tell you this story. ( true story ) Many years ago I was at a family gathering in another city and the person who had been responsible for the harm done to me as a child, they got drunk and needed a ride home. My husband and I drove them to their home and on the way they said they had to tell me something. (I won't say how I was related to them as it isn't important and I have no desire to identify who it was publicly ) This person broke down in many tears and told me how sorry they were for what they had done to me. In that moment I felt frozen like a deer caught in the headlights. I wasn't prepared for it at all.

The only way I can describe the feeling - would be to recount the story of Corrie Ten Boom when she was ministering in a church in Germany about her time in the concentration camps. Corrie's family rescued Jews and hid them to protect them from the nazis. She was a christian. Anyhow, Corrie says a nazi who had been the one who murdered her sister and tortured her also - came up to her at the end of the service and extended his hand and said can you forgive me?

Corrie said she was frozen and said a prayer in her heart and asked G-d for the grace to forgive this man. She said somehow her hand extended to his and she looked into his eyes and said I forgive you. She never saw the man again. So I did what Corrie did and I am glad I did. I'm also grateful that I had read her book, The Hiding Place, many years prior to that encounter as she proved what was possible with G-ds help.

In my own case I did see this family member again, they didn't ask me to forgive them but they did cry that night and said what they had done to me was awful. I did tell them that I loved them and that G-d loved them and that they needed to forgive themself over it. I still have times that memories come back and I feel very sad but truthfully if I say I feel as if it never happened like Mike said in step 3? I don't think I've reached that yet. But they haven't ever done anything else to me and when I am required to see them ( which is very rare ) I do my best to try to be polite and kind to that individual. I hope that helps someone here to understand that sometimes our tormentors do carry tremendous guilt over the things they have done in the past to us. They just might not ever tell you about it. On the other hand, maybe they will some day. That is the day you need to be ready for!

p.s. forgiveness comes in layers. It takes time like Connery said.. and sometimes when it feels just impossible - you ask G-d to do it through you. With G-d all things are possible.

p.s.s. before I turned my life over to G-d I was a drug addict. I think I was a drug addict because I was trying to kill myself. Unforgiveness is like drinking poison while hoping the other person dies. Literally.

- Jeri