Jefferson and Sally Hemmings

[Orange_Juice]

American Unions

Pretty interesting book review. I'm not endoring the book, just saying it looks interesting

 

[Cecilie1200]

Oh, for pity's sake. The DNA didn't "strongly suggest" anything of the sort, and it would be nice if someone who's going to write an entire book on the subject could have been bothered to read the DNA report itself, rather than the summaries provided in the "news" media, which drew conclusions not in evidence.

In truth, the DNA tests could only be done on the descendant lines of two of Hemings' children, her oldest son, Tom, and her youngest, Eston. They showed conclusively that NO Jefferson male fathered Tom, which is rather interesting insofar as the original rumors about Jefferson and Hemings, circulated during his lifetime by disgruntled political opponents, centered around this child. While the DNA tests allowed for the possibility that one of the 25 adult Jefferson males living when Hemings conceived Eston could have been the father, it is scientifically impossible to narrow it down any further, not to a definite relationship and certainly not to a definite on a specific father.

I always found it interesting that every news outlet on the planet trumpeted the claim that Thomas Jefferson had been "proven" to have fathered all of Hemings' children - a flat-out lie - almost none of them bothered to print the correction that followed, and certainly not prominently.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Oh, for pity's sake. The DNA didn't "strongly suggest" anything of the sort, and it would be nice if someone who's going to write an entire book on the subject could have been bothered to read the DNA report itself, rather than the summaries provided in the "news" media, which drew conclusions not in evidence.

In truth, the DNA tests could only be done on the descendant lines of two of Hemings' children, her oldest son, Tom, and her youngest, Eston. They showed conclusively that NO Jefferson male fathered Tom, which is rather interesting insofar as the original rumors about Jefferson and Hemings, circulated during his lifetime by disgruntled political opponents, centered around this child. While the DNA tests allowed for the possibility that one of the 25 adult Jefferson males living when Hemings conceived Eston could have been the father, it is scientifically impossible to narrow it down any further, not to a definite relationship and certainly not to a definite on a specific father.

I always found it interesting that every news outlet on the planet trumpeted the claim that Thomas Jefferson had been "proven" to have fathered all of Hemings' children - a flat-out lie - almost none of them bothered to print the correction that followed, and certainly not prominently.

I am amazed that the news media would digest the Nature study and regurgitate something to the public that was less than true. This is completely irresponsible.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There is still the possibility that Jefferson may have fathered a male child with Sally Hemmings. But because he didn't have any sons of which we are aware to compare, there is no conclusive proof.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I am amazed that the news media would digest the Nature study and regurgitate something to the public that was less than true. This is completely irresponsible.

Granted, it's irresponsible. Sadly, in regards to the news media, I find that not the slightest bit amazing.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There is still the possibility that Jefferson may have fathered a male child with Sally Hemmings. But because he didn't have any sons of which we are aware to compare, there is no conclusive proof.

There is a remote possibility that Jefferson may have been the father of Hemings' youngest child. The DNA tests show that SOME Jefferson male MAY have been responsible, but even that isn't conclusive, and the man was 64 when Eston was conceived. Considering how many adult male relatives he had at the time, seven of them living at Monticello itself, it's an enormous leap to pin it on him, and patently absurd to say that means that he fathered ALL of her children.

 

[Orange_Juice]

Oh, for pity's sake. The DNA didn't "strongly suggest" anything of the sort, and it would be nice if someone who's going to write an entire book on the subject could have been bothered to read the DNA report itself, rather than the summaries provided in the "news" media, which drew conclusions not in evidence.

In truth, the DNA tests could only be done on the descendant lines of two of Hemings' children, her oldest son, Tom, and her youngest, Eston. They showed conclusively that NO Jefferson male fathered Tom, which is rather interesting insofar as the original rumors about Jefferson and Hemings, circulated during his lifetime by disgruntled political opponents, centered around this child. While the DNA tests allowed for the possibility that one of the 25 adult Jefferson males living when Hemings conceived Eston could have been the father, it is scientifically impossible to narrow it down any further, not to a definite relationship and certainly not to a definite on a specific father.

I always found it interesting that every news outlet on the planet trumpeted the claim that Thomas Jefferson had been "proven" to have fathered all of Hemings' children - a flat-out lie - almost none of them bothered to print the correction that followed, and certainly not prominently.

I'm not sure what you are saying is correct. From what I've seen is that it was a Jefferson male but they don't know for sure which one, but the circumstantial evidence leans heavily towards Thomas Jefferson

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm not sure what you are saying is correct. From what I've seen is that it was a Jefferson male but they don't know for sure which one, but the circumstantial evidence leans heavily towards Thomas Jefferson

Circumstantial evidence such as what? The rumors about Jefferson and Hemings were originally started by a guy who was pissed off at Jefferson for not giving him a job he wanted. They were started about Hemings' FIRST child, and the DNA did conclusively prove that his descendants weren't related to the Jeffersons in any way. At the time that Hemings' last child, Eston, was born (Eston and the first child, Tom, were the only ones whose descendants were available for testing, and Eston's line is the one with the possibility of relation), Jefferson was 64 years old. He had twenty-four living male relatives at that time, seven of which actually lived at Monticello. This latter group included Jefferson's brother, Randolph, who was twelve years younger and known for socializing with the slaves.

In addition, for Thomas Jefferson to have fathered Eston Hemings, he would have had to have impregnated Sally five years AFTER the original rumors started. Thomas Jefferson wasn't exactly a stupid man, so why would he decide to make an untrue scandal like that true after the fact?

 

[Walt]

I am amazed that the news media would digest the Nature study and regurgitate something to the public that was less than true. This is completely irresponsible.[/QUOTE

Yes it is irresponsible. How can it be legal to falsify news? But it is! I hope those that watch this never look at news, weather on tv or news papers the same again. People get spoon fed, not with the truth, but with what they WANT people to think.

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This one is a lot longer.

Corporations

 

[editec]

So Thomas Jeffereson might or might not have been the father of children with a slave.

Who cares?

I mean, really, except for those people who feel they might be his decendent, what difference does it make?

 

[PoliticalChic]

So Thomas Jeffereson might or might not have been the father of children with a slave.

Who cares?

I mean, really, except for those people who feel they might be his decendent, what difference does it make?

I would like to know.

 

[Missourian]

Circumstantial evidence such as what?

I believe they located a blue dress...

​

 

[Cecilie1200]

So Thomas Jeffereson might or might not have been the father of children with a slave.

Who cares?

I mean, really, except for those people who feel they might be his decendent, what difference does it make?

Well, for one thing, the main reason they were trying so hard at the time to make the study appear to say something completely different than it actually did was because they were trying to use it to vindicate Bill Clinton's behavior. Joseph Ellis, who helped to write the summary of the study which misrepresented the findings and which was the only part most journalists ever read, said this: "It is as if Clinton had called one of the most respected character witnesses in all of US history to testify that the primal urge has a most distinguished presidential pedigree."

Which brings us to another, bigger problem. This attempt to smear the reputation of Thomas Jefferson is just one piece in a larger assault on the truth of our nation's history and on America's reputation. It's a like a more in-depth version of "Well, George Washington owned slaves, the Constitution considered blacks 3/5 of a person, the peaceful native peoples were ruthlessly slaughtered to steal all the land . . ." and so on. The idea is that if you can tarnish and blacken the people who started our country and gave us our traditions, it makes the country and the traditions themselves dirty and valueless.

It is always important to know history, the TRUTH of history. Those who do not are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Hey if I lived back in that time and owned slaves I might have slept with one (or more) too. That's just how it was, get over it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Hey if I lived back in that time and owned slaves I might have slept with one (or more) too. That's just how it was, get over it.

If it did happen, I would have understood. Jefferson's wife had died and according to what I've read, Sally looked very much like Martha Jefferson since she was her half-sister.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hey if I lived back in that time and owned slaves I might have slept with one (or more) too. That's just how it was, get over it.

Except it mostly wasn't. Oh, I'm not saying it NEVER happened, and it certainly didn't have anything to do with any moral qualms, for the most part. But the institution of slavery depended, as so many atrocities do, on the ability of the oppressors to demonize and deny the humanity of those oppressed. To then turn around and have sex with someone you have been taught your entire life is essentially an animal, a lower life form, would have been beyond most people, "Roots" notwithstanding.

That's one of my biggest problems with this sort of thing: the erroneous application of modern perspectives and sensibilities to historical situations, in my opinion, cripples our ability to really understand and learn from that history.

 

[Anguille]

But the institution of slavery depended, as so many atrocities do, on the ability of the oppressors to demonize and deny the humanity of those oppressed. To then turn around and have sex with someone you have been taught your entire life is essentially an animal, a lower life form, would have been beyond most people, "Roots" notwithstanding.

Gawd, you are dumb!

BTW, is there anythingon which you haven't got a long winded bombastic opinion to express?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Gawd, you are dumb!

BTW, is there anythingon which you haven't got a long winded bombastic opinion to express?

Well, now I know you're a boring ass with nothing of substance to say on ALL subjects, and not merely those that allow you to express your misogyny. So that consistency brings your total number of redeeming features up to . . . 1/2. Congrats.

Feel free to stop stalking me now.

 

[Orange_Juice]

Circumstantial evidence such as what? The rumors about Jefferson and Hemings were originally started by a guy who was pissed off at Jefferson for not giving him a job he wanted. They were started about Hemings' FIRST child, and the DNA did conclusively prove that his descendants weren't related to the Jeffersons in any way. At the time that Hemings' last child, Eston, was born (Eston and the first child, Tom, were the only ones whose descendants were available for testing, and Eston's line is the one with the possibility of relation), Jefferson was 64 years old. He had twenty-four living male relatives at that time, seven of which actually lived at Monticello. This latter group included Jefferson's brother, Randolph, who was twelve years younger and known for socializing with the slaves.

In addition, for Thomas Jefferson to have fathered Eston Hemings, he would have had to have impregnated Sally five years AFTER the original rumors started. Thomas Jefferson wasn't exactly a stupid man, so why would he decide to make an untrue scandal like that true after the fact?

Beverly Hemmings? What about her?

The circumstantial evidence is pretty telling, actually. He took Sally with him to France and treated her like a girlfriend instead of a slave, buying her nice dresses and other things. How many slaves get that treatment? The oral history points directly to a relationship as does the many, many such realtionships that existed exactly like this at this time. As Mary Chestnut's diary attests to:

"Ours is a monstrous system. Any lady is ready to tell you who is the father of all the mulatto children in every household but her own. Those, she seems to think, dropped from the clouds."

 

[Orange_Juice]

Except it mostly wasn't. Oh, I'm not saying it NEVER happened, and it certainly didn't have anything to do with any moral qualms, for the most part. But the institution of slavery depended, as so many atrocities do, on the ability of the oppressors to demonize and deny the humanity of those oppressed. To then turn around and have sex with someone you have been taught your entire life is essentially an animal, a lower life form, would have been beyond most people, "Roots" notwithstanding.

That's one of my biggest problems with this sort of thing: the erroneous application of modern perspectives and sensibilities to historical situations, in my opinion, cripples our ability to really understand and learn from that history.

I strongly disagree with that. Humans always do things that seem "illegolical" and sex is probably the most logicless act we engage in. To say they didn't do it because they didn't think they were humans misses a huge point about slavery. It was built on an obvious lie, that blacks were not humans. Of course whites ignored this lie when it served their interests. Were blacks given tasks to do that animals couldn't do? Yes. Were some blacks able to read and write? Yes. Were blacks put in charge of other blacks? Sure. Hell, late in the war slaves were being armed to fight in the Confederate army