Japan before Pearl Harbor

[AZrailwhale]

Japan had one.

How was the IJN a threat to the establishment of a JAPANESE colonial empire in the Western Pacific? The logic escapes me.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The ships I speak of came from both San Diego and Bremerton, WA. I forget if some also came from SF ports. Frankly it seems the Philippines was a smarter place to put them. FDR signaled to Japan, come get us. Japan came. A president not wanting war would not threaten Japan. Remember, Japan knew the ships were there and sitting ducks.

San Diego was the base of the Pacific Fleet. Bremerton was a shipyard, not a fleet base. There might have been a few destroyers or patrol boats stationed there in 1941 for a local defense force.

 

[Robert W]

San Diego was the base of the Pacific Fleet. Bremerton was a shipyard, not a fleet base. There might have been a few destroyers or patrol boats stationed there in 1941 for a local defense force.

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/wars-and-events/world-war-ii/pearl-harbor-raid/pearl-harbor-in-1940-1941.html

By May 1940, when the main part of the United States Fleet was transferred there from the west coast, Pearl Harbor had long been under development as a major naval base. Its Navy Yard had a dry dock capable of holding the largest warships, a marine railway for smaller ones, and an industrial plant for repairing and maintaining these ships. There were abundant mooring and docking locations for ships, including a berthing area along the eastern side of Ford Island that was commonly called "Battleship Row". Ford Island, dominating the center of Pearl Harbor, held a Naval Air Station for combat landplanes and patrol seaplanes. Across Southeast Loch from the Navy Yard was a submarine base and nearby was a large "farm" of fuel oil tanks. The base also included a Naval Hospital and other facilities.



This was still not nearly enough to support the Fleet. Pearl Harbor's area was limited, preventing the dispersal of its warships, and its opening to the sea was but a single narrow channel. Both of these elements were clearly dangerous from a security perspective. The base's supply and industrial capacity was too small to meet the Fleet's needs, and transportation from the west coast was slow and of insufficient carrying capacity. There were not enough tugs and other services to keep the Fleet operational and in good fighting practice. Housing and recreational facilities for the Fleet's thousands of Sailors and Marines were grossly inadequate for men who were to be long separated from their families. Nearby Honolulu was oversaturated with Navy and Army personnel, and its citizens, none-too-happy about the influx, did not welcome the new arrivals. Accordingly, Fleet readiness was handicapped, its security was well below optimum levels, and its morale was impared.



During 1940-41, construction of new facilities was undertaken to address some of these problems. The supply depot, on a peninsula across the channel from "Battleship Row", was greatly expanded, other locations were developed for basing aircraft, new permanent drydocks were begun, a floating drydock was brought over from the mainland, and many other improvements were prepared or started. The Army and Army Air Corps, responsible for the defense of Hawaii and the Pearl Harbor base, also built new facilities and brought in more forces. However, other deficiencies were either inherent to the physical location or simply could not be corrected within the limits of time, competing requirements and available resources. These had to be borne as best they could.

 

[Robert W]

How was the IJN a threat to the establishment of a JAPANESE colonial empire in the Western Pacific? The logic escapes me.

Maybe you think as FDR thought. War ships located nearer to Japan posed in the view of Japan as a terrible threat. So, they took care of it.

 

[Robert W]

There no classification markers except confidential on the memo. If it had been more highly classified, the markings would be there with the dates it was reclassified.

1951 was when Top Secret was invented.

Confidential is no doubt a modern era classification. I knew both terms when I was in the Army in 1962-64

 

[AZrailwhale]

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/wars-and-events/world-war-ii/pearl-harbor-raid/pearl-harbor-in-1940-1941.html

By May 1940, when the main part of the United States Fleet was transferred there from the west coast, Pearl Harbor had long been under development as a major naval base. Its Navy Yard had a dry dock capable of holding the largest warships, a marine railway for smaller ones, and an industrial plant for repairing and maintaining these ships. There were abundant mooring and docking locations for ships, including a berthing area along the eastern side of Ford Island that was commonly called "Battleship Row". Ford Island, dominating the center of Pearl Harbor, held a Naval Air Station for combat landplanes and patrol seaplanes. Across Southeast Loch from the Navy Yard was a submarine base and nearby was a large "farm" of fuel oil tanks. The base also included a Naval Hospital and other facilities.



This was still not nearly enough to support the Fleet. Pearl Harbor's area was limited, preventing the dispersal of its warships, and its opening to the sea was but a single narrow channel. Both of these elements were clearly dangerous from a security perspective. The base's supply and industrial capacity was too small to meet the Fleet's needs, and transportation from the west coast was slow and of insufficient carrying capacity. There were not enough tugs and other services to keep the Fleet operational and in good fighting practice. Housing and recreational facilities for the Fleet's thousands of Sailors and Marines were grossly inadequate for men who were to be long separated from their families. Nearby Honolulu was oversaturated with Navy and Army personnel, and its citizens, none-too-happy about the influx, did not welcome the new arrivals. Accordingly, Fleet readiness was handicapped, its security was well below optimum levels, and its morale was impared.



During 1940-41, construction of new facilities was undertaken to address some of these problems. The supply depot, on a peninsula across the channel from "Battleship Row", was greatly expanded, other locations were developed for basing aircraft, new permanent drydocks were begun, a floating drydock was brought over from the mainland, and many other improvements were prepared or started. The Army and Army Air Corps, responsible for the defense of Hawaii and the Pearl Harbor base, also built new facilities and brought in more forces. However, other deficiencies were either inherent to the physical location or simply could not be corrected within the limits of time, competing requirements and available resources. These had to be borne as best they could.

That has nothing to do with the political decision to base PacFlt there. Military needs are always subordinate to political needs.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Maybe you think as FDR thought. War ships located nearer to Japan posed in the view of Japan as a terrible threat. So, they took care of it.

Only as stupid a government as Japan had would go to war with the pre-eminent economic power in the world that already had a serving fleet larger than the IJN and double that under construction. The Two Ocean Navy Bill was no secret and newspapers and newsreels covered the keel laying of new ships. Japan had to know exactly how large the tsunami of modern warships preparing to descend upon it was. In early to mid 1941 nobody thought Japan would attack the WAllies, by mid November the possibility was recognized, but the target was the Asiatic Fleet at Cavite in Manila Bay. The Japanese stupidly attacked the two largest navies in the world expecting that Samurai spirit would overcome material deficiencies. It was a insane belief, but as late as a month before Hiroshima the Japanese government was convinced it could force a favorable peace from the WAllies.

 

[AZrailwhale]

1951 was when Top Secret was invented.

Confidential is no doubt a modern era classification. I knew both terms when I was in the Army in 1962-64

Wrong, an executive order (EO 8381) in 1940 established a three level classification system. Confidential, Secret and Top Secret were the three levels.

 

[Robert W]

Wrong, an executive order (EO 8381) in 1940 established a three level classification system. Confidential, Secret and Top Secret were the three levels.

1951
The term "Top Secret" was first used in the military context in 1951 with the issuance of Executive Order 10290 by President Harry Truman. This order established a classification system for sensitive information, with "Top Secret" designated for material that could cause exceptionally grave damage to national security if disclosed without authorization.

Wikipedia+1

 

[Robert W]

Only as stupid a government as Japan had would go to war with the pre-eminent economic power in the world that already had a serving fleet larger than the IJN and double that under construction. The Two Ocean Navy Bill was no secret and newspapers and newsreels covered the keel laying of new ships. Japan had to know exactly how large the tsunami of modern warships preparing to descend upon it was. In early to mid 1941 nobody thought Japan would attack the WAllies, by mid November the possibility was recognized, but the target was the Asiatic Fleet at Cavite in Manila Bay. The Japanese stupidly attacked the two largest navies in the world expecting that Samurai spirit would overcome material deficiencies. It was a insane belief, but as late as a month before Hiroshima the Japanese government was convinced it could force a favorable peace from the WAllies.

Let's try confining this to the start of our war against Japan please.

Japan clearly attacked just as Lt. Commander McCullum predicted and FDR carried out.

 

[westwall]

1951
The term "Top Secret" was first used in the military context in 1951 with the issuance of Executive Order 10290 by President Harry Truman. This order established a classification system for sensitive information, with "Top Secret" designated for material that could cause exceptionally grave damage to national security if disclosed without authorization.
Wikipedia+1

Wiki isn't a legit source.

 

[Robert W]

He wasn’t in Japan when he wrote that memo. He had been reassigned for two years.

Lt. Commander McCollum​

The McCollum memo, authored by Lt. Commander Arthur McCollum, is a pivotal document in the history of World War II. It outlines an eight-step plan to provoke Japan into attacking the United States, which President Roosevelt implemented in 1941. This memo, declassified in 1994, reveals that the U.S. government had a desire to lure Japan into an attack, which ultimately led to the Pearl Harbor attack. The memo's recommendations included actions such as sending American warships by Japanese fleet units and stationing a vulnerable capital fleet in Pearl Harbor. These actions were designed to create an opportunity for Japan to attack the United States, thus justifying the U.S. entry into World War II.

 

[Robert W]

Wiki isn't a legit source.

Really, what is a legit source?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Let's try confining this to the start of our war against Japan please.

Japan clearly attacked just as Lt. Commander McCullum predicted and FDR carried out.

His memo doesn’t say anything about Japan attacking Pearl Harbor.

 

[AZrailwhale]

His memo doesn’t say anything about Japan attacking Pearl Harbor.

In fact his memo advocates either attacking the Japanese or intimidating them by a combined show of force by pushing PacFlt to “the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands”. He wasn’t warning of an attack, he was advocating pushing Japan into an attack that would justify a declaration of war. Nowhere does he warn of an attack on Pearl Harbor in his memo THAT YOU POSTED.

 

[westwall]

Really, what is a legit source?

Anybody can edit wiki at anytime. That makes it useless as a source for anything other than entertainment related content.

And even some of that is suspect.

 

[Robert W]

Anybody can edit wiki at anytime. That makes it useless as a source for anything other than entertainment related content.

And even some of that is suspect.

I asked what is a legitimate source?

I am an approved Wikipedia author.

 

[westwall]

I asked what is a legitimate source?

I am an approved Wikipedia author.

Britannica, official sources. Etc.

 

[Robert W]

His memo doesn’t say anything about Japan attacking Pearl Harbor.

So who was his memo directed about? Was it Italy?

 

[Robert W]

Britannica, official sources. Etc.

I googled Britannica and got this