Japan before Pearl Harbor

[eagle7-31]

attacking the US a major blunder. If they stayed away from Pearl and the Philippines they would have has Asia and the resources they needed.

 

[Mashmont]

attacking the US a major blunder. If they stayed away from Pearl and the Philippines they would have has Asia and the resources they needed.

Tojo thought we were soft and easy pickings.

 

[whitehall]

Tojo thought we were soft and easy pickings.

It turns out that we were soft and easy pickings. MacArthur had about a day to prepare for the inevitable attack on the Philippines and his entire air force was destroyed on the ground. The Brits were shocked that there was no national intelligence, only a hodge podge of competing service networks.

 

[eagle7-31]

Tojo thought we were soft and easy pickings.

More than likely. But resource wise Japan did not need to attack us. BIG over estimation on their part.

 

[eagle7-31]

It turns out that we were soft and easy pickings. MacArthur had about a day to prepare for the inevitable attack on the Philippines and his entire air force was destroyed on the ground. The Brits were shocked that there was no national intelligence, only a hodge podge of competing service networks.

Very true about intell. At that time we were raw rookies in the intelligence business. But Adm James Richardson knew Japan very well and opposed FDR's plan to move the fleet from San Diego to Pearl. FDR fired Richardson and replaced him with Kimmel. The rest we know,

 

[Mashmont]

It turns out that we were soft and easy pickings. MacArthur had about a day to prepare for the inevitable attack on the Philippines and his entire air force was destroyed on the ground. The Brits were shocked that there was no national intelligence, only a hodge podge of competing service networks.

The military always suffers under leftwing leadership.

 

[Ringo]

It was before Pearl Harbor

 

[mikegriffith1]

attacking the US a major blunder. If they stayed away from Pearl and the Philippines they would have has Asia and the resources they needed.

Victor Davis Hanson has a major blind spot when it comes to WWII. Most of Japan's leaders did not want war with the U.S. Many Japanese military officers had trained in the U.S. A large number of Japan's senior leaders were pro-American and admired America, including Emperor Hirohito. Japan was fiercely anti-communist and was intensely (and justifiably) worried about Soviet influence in Asia and a Communist takeover of China.

If FDR had shown the Japanese half of the tolerance and friendship that he displayed toward the Soviets and had not imposed draconian sanctions on Japan, there would have been no Pearl Harbor. Indeed, a powerful faction in the government wanted to attack the Soviet Union, not the U.S.

The moderates in Japan's government, including the emperor himself, did all they could to reject the militarists' demand for an attack on Pearl Harbor after FDR spurned the last Japanese peace proposal. Japan experts, especially Ambassador Grew, warned FDR that the last Japanese peace offer was as far as the moderates could go without risking a military coup by the hardliners, but he ignored the warning.

FDR ignored the fact that Japan's moderates, including Emperor Hirohito, were not happy with the army's actions in China and were unable to fully control the army in China. FDR and other Japan haters pretended that all Japanese leaders were alike and were acting in unison, when in fact there was fierce disagreement between the moderates and militarists. Every action FDR took strengthened the militarists, hampered the moderates, and made peace impossible.

It should also be noted that when the Japanese offered an extremely reasonable peace deal to the Chinese Nationalists, FDR persuaded the Nationalists to reject it. The deal was so reasonable and generous that even some of Chiang Kai-shek's top generals urged him to accept it.

 

[eagle7-31]

Victor Davis Hanson has a major blind spot when it comes to WWII. Most of Japan's leaders did not want war with the U.S. Many Japanese military officers had trained in the U.S. A large number of Japan's senior leaders were pro-American and admired America, including Emperor Hirohito. Japan was fiercely anti-communist and was intensely (and justifiably) worried about Soviet influence in Asia and a Communist takeover of China.

If FDR had shown the Japanese half of the tolerance and friendship that he displayed toward the Soviets and had not imposed draconian sanctions on Japan, there would have been no Pearl Harbor. Indeed, a powerful faction in the government wanted to attack the Soviet Union, not the U.S.

The moderates in Japan's government, including the emperor himself, did all they could to reject the militarists' demand for an attack on Pearl Harbor after FDR spurned the last Japanese peace proposal. Japan experts, especially Ambassador Grew, warned FDR that the last Japanese peace offer was as far as the moderates could go without risking a military coup by the hardliners, but he ignored the warning.

FDR ignored the fact that Japan's moderates, including Emperor Hirohito, were not happy with the army's actions in China and were unable to fully control the army in China. FDR and other Japan haters pretended that all Japanese leaders were alike and were acting in unison, when in fact there was fierce disagreement between the moderates and militarists. Every action FDR took strengthened the militarists, hampered the moderates, and made peace impossible.

It should also be noted that when the Japanese offered an extremely reasonable peace deal to the Chinese Nationalists, FDR persuaded the Nationalists to reject it. The deal was so reasonable and generous that even some of Chiang Kai-shek's top generals urged him to accept it.

You may well be correct in much of what you say. But it was hard for Japan's moderates to have much control or influence over Army policy, particularly Tojo and his faction. I would also point out that Adm James Richardson was the military expert on Japan and opposed FDR moving the fleet to Pearl Harbor. FDR fired Richardson and Kimmel replaced him. The aftermath we know. Not aware of Japan's peace proposal to China. Been better if Japan had not invaded at all either in 1931 or 1937. Chaing might have totally crushed Mao without that Japanese invasion.

 

[Mac-7]

attacking the US a major blunder. If they stayed away from Pearl and the Philippines they would have has Asia and the resources they needed.

Yes, and FDR would have been locked out of war with Germany too

At least for a while

 

[eagle7-31]

Yes, and FDR would have been locked out of war with Germany too

At least for a while

Quite possibly, though the Austrian house painter may have declared war on the US in any event.

 

[Mac-7]

Victor Davis Hanson has a major blind spot when it comes to WWII. Most of Japan's leaders did not want war with the U.S. Many Japanese military officers had trained in the U.S. A large number of Japan's senior leaders were pro-American and admired America, including Emperor Hirohito. Japan was fiercely anti-communist and was intensely (and justifiably) worried about Soviet influence in Asia and a Communist takeover of China.

Japanese naval officers were cool or outright opposed to war with America

But not the Army

 

[Mac-7]

Quite possibly, though the Austrian house painter may have declared war on the US in any event.

Maybe

But why would he?

 

[martybegan]

Japanese naval officers were cool or outright opposed to war with America

But not the Army

The Army wanted total control over China, or at least so much of it that the rump State left would be powerless.

A move by Japan to take over Dutch and British possessions probably would have led to a US declaration of war against Japan, but without all the anger the Pearl Harbor attack created.

 

[braalian]

War with Germany and Japan was inevitable. It just might have taken longer without Pearl Harbor

 

[Mac-7]

The Army wanted total control over China, or at least so much of it that the rump State left would be powerless.

A move by Japan to take over Dutch and British possessions probably would have led to a US declaration of war against Japan, but without all the anger the Pearl Harbor attack created.

I dont think so

Isolationism was very strong prior to Pearl Harbor

 

[martybegan]

I dont think so

Isolationism was very strong prior to Pearl Harbor

It was moving more and more towards not bowing down to Japan controlling all of China. FDR had support for that.

The US had trade interests in China, and Japan threatening those would have been noted by the general population.

The Isolationists were loud, and they had some solid backing, but they were losing influence as time went on and Germany and Japan kept expanding.

People in the US also were starting to realize the improvements in Bomber technology was slowly negating the "two ocean" defense the US relied on.

 

[Ringo]

Maybe
But why would he?

Hitler himself said that war with the US was inevitable. If only because the US was supplying England. And the first americans had already died at the hands of the germans during these deliveries, even before Hitler declared war on America.
And since war was inevitable anyway, he used Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor as a pretext, hoping that Japan would also attack the USSR, which would be beneficial to Hitler, especially since the germans were being defeated near Moscow at that very moment.

 

[Mac-7]

It was moving more and more towards not bowing down to Japan controlling all of China. FDR had support for that.

The US had trade interests in China, and Japan threatening those would have been noted by the general population.

The Isolationists were loud, and they had some solid backing, but they were losing influence as time went on and Germany and Japan kept expanding.

People in the US also were starting to realize the improvements in Bomber technology was slowly negating the "two ocean" defense the US relied on.

In time, yes

But that was something the Brits had very little of

 

[Mac-7]

Hitler himself said that war with the US was inevitable. If only because the US was supplying England. And the first americans had already died at the hands of the germans during these deliveries, even before Hitler declared war on America.
And since war was inevitable anyway, he used Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor as a pretext, hoping that Japan would also attack the USSR, which would be beneficial to Hitler.

Hitler was an absolute dictator

He didnt need pretexts

No, he just made a mistake that probably cost him the war