Jane Roe going to Supreme Court.....

[Bonnie]

Using Mental development as the litmus test for viability is flawed, too. How many people have been brain dead - kept alive by machines only to recover, and lead healthy lives after?

We don't kill our adults because they can't survive w/o signifigant medical help - why isn't that same courtesy afforded to babies?

Babies are easier to pick on!!!

 

[musicman]

All of those reasons are valid in the first 3 months, without question. A tiny insignificant embryo is so far removed from "Personhood" it has no rights greater than any right of the mother.







Andy

At what precise moment does human life begin?

 

[musicman]

Using Mental development as the litmus test for viability is flawed, too. How many people have been brain dead - kept alive by machines only to recover, and lead healthy lives after?

We don't kill our adults because they can't survive w/o signifigant medical help - why isn't that same courtesy afforded to babies?

That's the hell of it. If we make convenience the ultimate determining factor in the right to life, we're ALL in deep shit. Why can't the pro-abortion forces see that?

Human beings tend to be inconvenient at BOTH ends of their lives!

 

[Bonnie]

That's the hell of it. If we make convenience the ultimate determining factor in the right to life, we're ALL in deep shit. Why can't the pro-abortion forces see that?

Human beings tend to be inconvenient at BOTH ends of their lives!

Soylent Green anyone????????????

 

[musicman]

Soylent Green anyone????????????

Let things keep going as they are, and the Social Security problem will solve itself.

There'll be a BOUNTY on anyone who's too old to work.

 

[Bonnie]

Let things keep going as they are, and the Social Security problem will solve itself.

There'll be a BOUNTY on anyone who's too old to work.

followed by too sickly, too unattractive, too mentally ill, too politically outspoken, too crippled...................

 

[no1tovote4]

followed by too sickly, too unattractive, too mentally ill, too politically outspoken, too crippled...................

Shoot, I pop back in for a couple seconds... and you all are after me again!

:fifty:

 

[musicman]

followed by too sickly, too unattractive, too mentally ill, too politically outspoken, too crippled...................

In short - the INCONVENIENT. And by what moral authority do we tell younger generations that killing for convenience is wrong? It was good enough for us!

 

[Bonnie]

Shoot, I pop back in for a couple seconds... and you all are after me again!

:fifty:

Hey now don't sell yourself short......LOL Pun intended JK!

 

[Bonnie]

In short - the INCONVENIENT. And by what moral authority do we tell younger generations that killing for convenience is wrong? It was good enough for us!

Well that's exactly it...........WE CAN'T

 

[Merlin1047]

:spank3:

Well this has certainly been one of those threads.

Abortion is without a doubt a hot-button item on both sides of the issue. But everyone needs to face some basic facts.

We, as a society, are going to have to come to some agreement in regard to what is or is not acceptable regarding abortion. Some decision will have to be made - probably by a combination of government and courts. On the government end, we the people need to have our input heard and laws and policies will need to be adopted which reflect the will of the majority.

One thing to consider is that probably very few will be completely satisfied no matter what the ultimate outcome is. Those with strong religious or ethical convictions that life starts at the moment of conception will probably not have their view adopted and neither will those who believe that abortion on demand at any time is acceptable. As with anything else, there will have to be compromise, like it or not.

Whatever the ultimate outcome, those who believe that no abortion should ever be performed will have the satisfaction of still being able to apply their beliefs to themselves. Those who believe that abortion at any point is permissible will have to obey the law or leave the country.

 

[musicman]

Well said, Merlin. That's pretty much the situation as she stands. However, I'd like to raise again a question I have posed twice in this thread:

At what precise moment does human life begin? My question was not rhetorical - I really want to know if someone wants to go out on a limb and say, "Life begins at THIS point." You know what? I can't do it. No one can.

Some - like Krisy and myself, believe that life begins at conception. Others believe that life isn't life until the point of viability - independent of the mother. But, my point is, we just don't know.

Since we don't know - and since the stakes are as high as stakes get (life and death) - isn't it just prudent and sensible, not to mention decent and humane - to err on the side of life?

 

[CivilLiberty]

Fascinating. I would grant all living things the right to life without regard to personhood, but more especially human life.

When was the last time you swatted a fly, sprayed bug spray, set out a roach bait or a mouse trap?

When was the last time you ate a steak or a chicken or fish fillet?

When was the last time you ate a banana, or had a salad?


All living things. Certainly we revere human life as far as human beings above these - natural survival instinct - but there is a line that can be drawn. An embryo the size of a dime cannot be said to have rights that exceed the rights of the woman.


Andy

 

[Bonnie]

Well said, Merlin. That's pretty much the situation as she stands. However, I'd like to raise again a question I have posed twice in this thread:

At what precise moment does human life begin? My question was not rhetorical - I really want to know if someone wants to go out on a limb and say, "Life begins at THIS point." You know what? I can't do it. No one can.

Some - like Krisy and myself, believe that life begins at conception. Others believe that life isn't life until the point of viability - independent of the mother. But, my point is, we just don't know.

Since we don't know - and since the stakes are as high as stakes get (life and death) - isn't it just prudent and sensible, not to mention decent and humane - to err on the side of life?

That really is the cruxt of the debate, and it is there that you will never get a satisfactory answer, especially from those who are pro-choice becasue it's easier for them to tell themselves life doesn't begin at conception making it more acceptable to do something wretchedly inhumane, and never be judged as wrong.

 

[CivilLiberty]

What in the hell does size have to do with anything here ??? Would you be willing to admit that this "size" argument is totally irrelative ?

It is VERY relevant. At question is at what point does a sperm and egg become an independent being with it's own rights, and when do those rights exceed the rights of the host woman?

Andy

 

[CivilLiberty]

Size means everything! Execute all people under 6'0"! Heil the master tall race!

[/sarcasm]

Whew!! Glad I'm 6'5"


heh


A

 

[musicman]

An embryo the size of a dime cannot be said to have rights that exceed the rights of the woman.


Andy

Why - because it's dime-sized?

Never mind, "exceed" - how about an equal right to life?

At what precise moment does human life begin?

 

[CivilLiberty]

Andy,
So you are using size, and physical development as a condition of personhood.

In case I wasn't clear - I'm using size to indicate that there is a point where a WOMAN's rights EXCEED the rights of the embryo.


Regards


Andy

 

[Mr. P]

:spank3:

Well this has certainly been one of those threads.

Abortion is without a doubt a hot-button item on both sides of the issue. But everyone needs to face some basic facts.

We, as a society, are going to have to come to some agreement in regard to what is or is not acceptable regarding abortion. Some decision will have to be made - probably by a combination of government and courts. On the government end, we the people need to have our input heard and laws and policies will need to be adopted which reflect the will of the majority.

One thing to consider is that probably very few will be completely satisfied no matter what the ultimate outcome is. Those with strong religious or ethical convictions that life starts at the moment of conception will probably not have their view adopted and neither will those who believe that abortion on demand at any time is acceptable. As with anything else, there will have to be compromise, like it or not.

Whatever the ultimate outcome, those who believe that no abortion should ever be performed will have the satisfaction of still being able to apply their beliefs to themselves. Those who believe that abortion at any point is permissible will have to obey the law or leave the country.

This is where we are now. And have been for years. IMO

 

[musicman]

In case I wasn't clear - I'm using size to indicate that there is a point where a WOMAN's rights EXCEED the rights of the embryo.


Regards


Andy

And what, precisely, is that point?

When does it end?

When, precisely, does human life begin?