James Monroe was only 18 when he signed the Declaration of Independence. Aaron Burr only 20.

[Maxdeath]

And the question is why?

The reality is it's the aging electoral system that isn't fit for the 21st century

Time for Proportional Representation.

No matter if we use the old or your proposed representation it makes no difference if we have representatives that are useless, undereducated and only worried about lining their pockets

 

[frigidweirdo]

No matter if we use the old or your proposed representation it makes no difference if we have representatives that are useless, undereducated and only worried about lining their pockets

The thing is the system changes the attitude of the people in power.

It's much easier to lose your seat with PR, it's easier for people to form different parties, instead of two huge parties.


Go take a look at it.

 

[Maxdeath]

The thing is the system changes the attitude of the people in power.

It's much easier to lose your seat with PR, it's easier for people to form different parties, instead of two huge parties.


Go take a look at it.

It still does nothing about people that are interested in politics. Wish it did but it will still be the same idiots

 

[frigidweirdo]

It still does nothing about people that are interested in politics. Wish it did but it will still be the same idiots

No it doesn't. But it makes it easier for them.

In Germany there are six viable political parties. Everyone knows what they stand for, for or less. But then policies change and people change with that.

With PR they know they can vote for someone else.

In the US, if you don't like the Republican candidate, but you hate the Democrats more, you vote for the Republican candidate.

In Germany if you don't like the CDU candidate, you vote FDP or AfD instead. Still right wing, just not the people annoying you. So the CDU lose votes, lose members of the Bundestag and so they have to change their approach.

In the US they don't. They keep going with the same old tired nonsense because they know nobody has any other choice. And by "they" I mean both Reps and Dems.

 

[Mac1958]

Shouldn't we expect better?

Watching her trying to read a number a while back was pretty awful too.

Perhaps, along with her Master and Boebert, the best example of the Dunning Kruger Effect in the GQP.

And no, I'm not really expecting better. I'd like to, but this appears to be who we are.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

The founders sure were prophetic about a worthless party system.

 

[22lcidw]

And the question is why?

The reality is it's the aging electoral system that isn't fit for the 21st century

Time for Proportional Representation.

It is more than ever as it give us time to think on what we are doing and the path we are heading into. If it is what you support and Progs control most of the system, then it will get here one or the other. We must exhaust any other ways of thinking and views. This is the difference between Democracy and a Republic. The Republic is tattered and barely hanging on.

 

[Maxdeath]

No it doesn't. But it makes it easier for them.

In Germany there are six viable political parties. Everyone knows what they stand for, for or less. But then policies change and people change with that.

With PR they know they can vote for someone else.

In the US, if you don't like the Republican candidate, but you hate the Democrats more, you vote for the Republican candidate.

In Germany if you don't like the CDU candidate, you vote FDP or AfD instead. Still right wing, just not the people annoying you. So the CDU lose votes, lose members of the Bundestag and so they have to change their approach.

In the US they don't. They keep going with the same old tired nonsense because they know nobody has any other choice. And by "they" I mean both Reps and Dems.

That is all well and good. The only problem is you will still have those that would vote for a bowling ball if it has a D or an R attached to it. You will still have a large number of people that think things like Quam could tip over that would be in any party even if we had ten different parties. We have had different parties and still do. Look at people like Ross Periot. He did not run as a democrat or republican. But he never got enough votes to be even close to a little bit of a threat. He is not the only one that has run on a third party ticket. There are plenty of others.
So while thinking that you will somehow bring out the best and the brightest by having third parties or more is not really a salient point

 

[frigidweirdo]

That is all well and good. The only problem is you will still have those that would vote for a bowling ball if it has a D or an R attached to it. You will still have a large number of people that think things like Quam could tip over that would be in any party even if we had ten different parties. We have had different parties and still do. Look at people like Ross Periot. He did not run as a democrat or republican. But he never got enough votes to be even close to a little bit of a threat. He is not the only one that has run on a third party ticket. There are plenty of others.
So while thinking that you will somehow bring out the best and the brightest by having third parties or more is not really a salient point

Of course.

Let's look at Germany, they have the CDU/CSU and SPD as the main two parties.

The SPD in the last election got 25.7% of the votes and the CDU/CSU 24.1%

They still form the government every time. The difference is they have to form coalitions, and this leads to better policies as they have to sit down and discuss deals in order to get a govt formed.

There are natural coalition partners. The SPD usually go with the Greens and the CDU/CSU with the FDP. Right now it's the SPD, Greens and FDP in coalition. They've been pretty stable for the last three years.

The problem in the US is that the thinking process is getting worse. But open up the elections and people's attitudes will change pretty quickly when they see what it all means.

 

[Curried Goats]

And they were all Insurrections standing up to a tyrannical government

In order to form a tyrannical government.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

In order to form a tyrannical government.

Please GTFO and go someplace less "tyrannical"

 

[Curried Goats]

Please GTFO and go someplace less "tyrannical"

Do you need a moment to gather yourself and construct a less emotional response?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Do you need a moment to gather yourself and construct a less emotional response?

Me? no!

Stop being such a fucking whiny vag and go someplace more to your liking.

You think you benefit by complaining 24/7/365?

 

[Curried Goats]

Me? no!

Stop being such a fucking whiny vag and go someplace more to your liking.

You think you benefit by complaining 24/7/365?

You're the one getting emotional, throwing insults around and telling people to leave all because I correctly identified the Founders as tyrants themselves.

 

[Maxdeath]

Of course.

Let's look at Germany, they have the CDU/CSU and SPD as the main two parties.

The SPD in the last election got 25.7% of the votes and the CDU/CSU 24.1%

They still form the government every time. The difference is they have to form coalitions, and this leads to better policies as they have to sit down and discuss deals in order to get a govt formed.

There are natural coalition partners. The SPD usually go with the Greens and the CDU/CSU with the FDP. Right now it's the SPD, Greens and FDP in coalition. They've been pretty stable for the last three years.

The problem in the US is that the thinking process is getting worse. But open up the elections and people's attitudes will change pretty quickly when they see what it all means.

You seem to be missing the point. No matter how many parties we had we would still be dealing with the same types of fools

 

[frigidweirdo]

You seem to be missing the point. No matter how many parties we had we would still be dealing with the same types of fools

You seem to be missing the point.

You don't understand how PR changes things. You think it's just going to be changing the way people vote, but still the same thing. It's just not like that.

Reps and Dems know that if they come up with silly policies, or no policies at all, it doesn't matter.

People have a viable choice between two parties in the US.
In Germany they have a viable choice between six parties.

This means if I don't like what the party I normal vote for in the US does, then I have the choice of voting for those I hate, or voting for those who have done something I don't like. So, most of the time I'll go for the latter.

In Germany you can vote for a different party that still holds the side of politics you want to vote for.

This means that politicians can easily lose votes.

The CDU/CSU had Merkel in power in 2005. She got 41.64% of the vote.
Then 33.8%, then 41.55%, then 32.93%, then 30.9% without Merkel

That's a 10% difference between 2013 and 2021. People got fed up of the CDU/CSU so 1/4th of the voters went somewhere else.

The thing is that with 33.8% of the vote, the CDU/CSU was still in power.

Why?

Because people went off and voted for the FDP.

In 2005 they got 9.85%, in 2009 they went up to 14.56% of the vote while the CDU/CSU went down by 8%. People clearly wanted to send a message to the CDU/CSU but still wanted them to be in power. So the CDU/CSU sorted themselves out.

The FDP then gained 4.76% (and lost all their seats) in 2013 while the CDU/CSU went and did really well.

In the US this can't happen. There isn't that choice.

This changes the mentality of the politicians. What are they fighting for. "Don't vote for this party because it'll mean this" negative voting.

Clearly in any country with proper fair PR elections the main parties don't get numbers anywhere near as high as the Reps and Dems do in the US.

So in Germany the leaders have to be positive, they have to have a manifesto that makes sense, they have to appeal to voters. The FDP got wiped out in 2013 after having been in junior govt with the CDU/CSU for the previous 4 years.

In the US it's all about being negative, and negative is often about personalities, and certainly money comes into it a lot. Manipulating people with FEAR is a big part of US politics, because the system makes it about fear.

In Germany it's not. You don't need money to tell people "this is what we stand for", you need money to tell people "the other guy is bad", it's emotional politics. It's nonsense, getting to the heart of people's emotions, rather than their brains.
So politicians in the US are people who know they can make loads of money with a negative message. It attracts that kind of person. Trump and his insults, for example, go down will in the US system because it's been like that for a long time.

 

[Maxdeath]

You seem to be missing the point.

You don't understand how PR changes things. You think it's just going to be changing the way people vote, but still the same thing. It's just not like that.

Reps and Dems know that if they come up with silly policies, or no policies at all, it doesn't matter.

People have a viable choice between two parties in the US.
In Germany they have a viable choice between six parties.

This means if I don't like what the party I normal vote for in the US does, then I have the choice of voting for those I hate, or voting for those who have done something I don't like. So, most of the time I'll go for the latter.

In Germany you can vote for a different party that still holds the side of politics you want to vote for.

This means that politicians can easily lose votes.

The CDU/CSU had Merkel in power in 2005. She got 41.64% of the vote.
Then 33.8%, then 41.55%, then 32.93%, then 30.9% without Merkel

That's a 10% difference between 2013 and 2021. People got fed up of the CDU/CSU so 1/4th of the voters went somewhere else.

The thing is that with 33.8% of the vote, the CDU/CSU was still in power.

Why?

Because people went off and voted for the FDP.

In 2005 they got 9.85%, in 2009 they went up to 14.56% of the vote while the CDU/CSU went down by 8%. People clearly wanted to send a message to the CDU/CSU but still wanted them to be in power. So the CDU/CSU sorted themselves out.

The FDP then gained 4.76% (and lost all their seats) in 2013 while the CDU/CSU went and did really well.

In the US this can't happen. There isn't that choice.

This changes the mentality of the politicians. What are they fighting for. "Don't vote for this party because it'll mean this" negative voting.

Clearly in any country with proper fair PR elections the main parties don't get numbers anywhere near as high as the Reps and Dems do in the US.

So in Germany the leaders have to be positive, they have to have a manifesto that makes sense, they have to appeal to voters. The FDP got wiped out in 2013 after having been in junior govt with the CDU/CSU for the previous 4 years.

In the US it's all about being negative, and negative is often about personalities, and certainly money comes into it a lot. Manipulating people with FEAR is a big part of US politics, because the system makes it about fear.

In Germany it's not. You don't need money to tell people "this is what we stand for", you need money to tell people "the other guy is bad", it's emotional politics. It's nonsense, getting to the heart of people's emotions, rather than their brains.
So politicians in the US are people who know they can make loads of money with a negative message. It attracts that kind of person. Trump and his insults, for example, go down will in the US system because it's been like that for a long time.

Well I can certainly not fault your backing of the idea that having multiple parties will somehow help the US. Yoou appear to be very enamored with their political system.
But the one thing I find funny is you somehow seem to be under the impression that having multiple parties will some how increase the IQ and integrity of those running for office and will increase the IQ of the average American voter. That is pure fantasy.
All you have to do is work in a big box store like Lowe’s or Home Depot and you will learn that the average IQ of a large percentage of people is almost equal to a plant. Some it is a wonder they are able to walk and breath at the same time. If the German system is so much better why are they not being emulated by every country? Why are they not the government that everyone looks up to?

 

[22lcidw]

You seem to be missing the point.

You don't understand how PR changes things. You think it's just going to be changing the way people vote, but still the same thing. It's just not like that.

Reps and Dems know that if they come up with silly policies, or no policies at all, it doesn't matter.

People have a viable choice between two parties in the US.
In Germany they have a viable choice between six parties.

This means if I don't like what the party I normal vote for in the US does, then I have the choice of voting for those I hate, or voting for those who have done something I don't like. So, most of the time I'll go for the latter.

In Germany you can vote for a different party that still holds the side of politics you want to vote for.

This means that politicians can easily lose votes.

The CDU/CSU had Merkel in power in 2005. She got 41.64% of the vote.
Then 33.8%, then 41.55%, then 32.93%, then 30.9% without Merkel

That's a 10% difference between 2013 and 2021. People got fed up of the CDU/CSU so 1/4th of the voters went somewhere else.

The thing is that with 33.8% of the vote, the CDU/CSU was still in power.

Why?

Because people went off and voted for the FDP.

In 2005 they got 9.85%, in 2009 they went up to 14.56% of the vote while the CDU/CSU went down by 8%. People clearly wanted to send a message to the CDU/CSU but still wanted them to be in power. So the CDU/CSU sorted themselves out.

The FDP then gained 4.76% (and lost all their seats) in 2013 while the CDU/CSU went and did really well.

In the US this can't happen. There isn't that choice.

This changes the mentality of the politicians. What are they fighting for. "Don't vote for this party because it'll mean this" negative voting.

Clearly in any country with proper fair PR elections the main parties don't get numbers anywhere near as high as the Reps and Dems do in the US.

So in Germany the leaders have to be positive, they have to have a manifesto that makes sense, they have to appeal to voters. The FDP got wiped out in 2013 after having been in junior govt with the CDU/CSU for the previous 4 years.

In the US it's all about being negative, and negative is often about personalities, and certainly money comes into it a lot. Manipulating people with FEAR is a big part of US politics, because the system makes it about fear.

In Germany it's not. You don't need money to tell people "this is what we stand for", you need money to tell people "the other guy is bad", it's emotional politics. It's nonsense, getting to the heart of people's emotions, rather than their brains.
So politicians in the US are people who know they can make loads of money with a negative message. It attracts that kind of person. Trump and his insults, for example, go down will in the US system because it's been like that for a long time.

We have a two-party system that is supposed to have three wings in each. Left, Center and Right. The Democratic Party is left of Left. It has no normal Left, no Center and no Right. The Republican Party has Left and Center massive representation with a small number on the Right. And when we see votes they show up to schmooze the Progressive votes when needed. With a smaller federal government, we may get away with this. With a large on that is getting larger this is dangerous, and the differences are widening between citizens as the federal government gets stronger.

 

[CrazyTrader55]

Or at least according to MTG. I think the person who notes that it's a good thing she was born here as she could never pass a citizenship exam.

Shouldn't we expect better?

Marjorie Taylor Greene Botches Basic American History In Most Humiliating Way

How old was Aaron Burr when he killed Alexander Hamilton in a dual?

 

[pknopp]

How old was Aaron Burr when he killed Alexander Hamilton in a dual?

48.