Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[Batcat]

But you didn't remain a christian just to hedge your bets, did you.

My father, who was agnostic, mentioned Pascal’s wager to me when I asked him about religion. He may have been agnostic but he knew a lot about the Bible. I listened to him debate Christians who showed up at our door to try to convert us to their version of Christianity. He often left them totally confused when he pointed out errors in their Bible. My father definitely enjoyed the debate and he could quote from the Bible extensively.

My mother was the main influence on my becoming a Christian. She used to read the Bible to me and had me memorize some of it. That definitely helped me learn how to read which andI have enjoyed reading all my life. I also was taught Bible stories in elementary school by a lady who would stop by my classroom weekly. She had a cloth display with a biblical background and cloth characters She stuck on the display.

My mother told me my father accepted Christ before he died and perhaps he did. Maybe he decided Pascal had a point.

Obviously I don’t come from a church going family. There was a local Presbyterian Church in the small town where I grew up and I did attend its summer school but it didn’t push religion all that much. My father avoided that church and said you were not welcome unless you could piss on your grandfather’s grave. (We had moved to that small town from Pittsburgh when I was four years old)

I often wonder if you can find true Christianity in most churches. I don’t attend any churches today but I do study the Bible and have read it from start to finish at least five or six times (different versions). I also read commentary on the Bible.

Part of the reason I avoid church is I have COPD and cough a lot. I don’t want to scare a congregation as they might fear I have COVID or RSV. I am also on oxygen and going anywhere is a pain.

 

[Crick]

This I did not say. I said the most murderous religion of the world had been atheistic.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect. You said

What's nonsense which members of the religion atheism - the most murderous religion which ever had existed - propagate by excluding themselves. The real problem: Human beings have to learn everything. And so you are able to educate human beings to be "everything" - also totally cruel child soldiers.

You are clearly saying that the religion [sic] atheism is the most murderous religion that had ever existed.

Examples: In the worst day - from my point of view the worst day - of the French revolution had been murdered - ah sorry: "executed" - more people than had been executed in more than 500 years from the Catholic church when she had also been in government integration. And the French revolution murdered a long time and this was only the worst day.

The French Revolution was driven in great part by an animosity towards the church but not by atheism.

Or take the Commies as an example.

"Commies"?

It is said in worst case scenarios that Mao murdered 100 million Chinese of all religions and Stalin murderered 20 million Russians.

I found different figures:

Mao's policies were responsible for vast numbers of deaths, with estimates ranging from 40 to 80 million victims due to starvation, persecution, prison labour, and mass executions, and his government was described as totalitarian.​

Mao Zedong - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is not the same thing as all executed.

As for Stalin:

In 2011, after assessing twenty years of historical research in Eastern European archives, American historian Timothy D. Snyder stated that Stalin deliberately killed about 6 million, which rise to 9 million if foreseeable deaths arising from policies are taken into account. American historian William D.​

Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Nazis murdered also millions including 6 million Jews - whose abysmally malignant mysticisms had been "pagan" and "scientific" but were indeed only atheistic and totally stupid (on a very high level of stupidity).

And, I'm sorry, I will not accept that. Adolph Hitler was raised by christians and self-identified as christian. I have to take his word for it. And through war and the Holocaust, he was responsible for just under 50 million dead.

Defense Casualty Analysis System

dcas.dmdc.osd.mil

​

Atheism is not a religion and is not a belief that drives violence. Throughout all of human history, religion has admirably served that function, alongside - often in parallel with - nationality, ethnicity and simple conflicts for basic resources.

 

[Crick]

I am saying you didn't write that period!

Didn't write what? The OP?

It is not an issue though, most of what you say is simply a person who puts his/her/it's fingers in their ears and say nuh uh!

You're going to have to identify to what text of mine you refer.

The other part of your dishonesty is in saying you don't believe I say you do deep down but have suppressed the innate knowledge of God and made yourself your god.

I see. Do you have witnesses? Signed statements? Photographs or audio recording of me being god?

You simply refuse to allow the thought, because then you would have to live differently, it's ok, it's the same for all atheists.

It's okay, it's the same for all christians. It's okay, it's the same for all jews. It's okay, it's the same for all muslims. It's okay, it's the same for all buddhists. It's okay, it's the same for all hindus. It's okay, it's the same for all taoists.

It's okay. It's your ignorance that leads you to your anger and you're certainly not alone.

 

[Crick]

That caring for a disabled dog can make you a stronger, more moral person.

You chose not to listen. That’s on you.

I chose not to listen to what?

 

[Crick]

I hope I have not already responded to this, but this thread grew enormously yesterday and I've been quit swamped.

==>Simple. If you still love and care about yourself and show mercy to someone or living things(such as your dog), you yourself are just like God. No need to worship him.

That is obviously in conflict with scriptures which tells us repeatedly that we must worship him.

God's characteristics

According to the Bible and Christianity, God is often described with various characteristics:

1. Omnipotent and Omniscient: God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He has unlimited power and knowledge.

Are YOU familiar with the conflict between omniscience and free will? If god knows all that will happen, precisely, for all time, there are no choices and thus no free will. We and the rest of the universe are only puppets. And, of course, with omnipotence there's the old chestnut, can god make a rock so big that he cannot move it.

2. Loving and Merciful: God is depicted as a loving and compassionate being, showing mercy and forgiveness to humanity.

Who seems to do absolutely nothing to prevent or respond to enormous amounts of incredible, pointless suffering - suffering that #1 tells us he absolutely knew was coming.

3. Just and Righteous: God is fair and just in His actions and judgments. He rewards righteousness and punishes evil.

How then do you explain the change between the vengeful, unforgiving god of the Old Testament and the kind and caring god of the New?

4. Eternal and Immutable: God has no beginning or end; He is eternal. His character and nature do not change.

Old Testament vs New Testament?

5. Holy: God is morally perfect and separate from all sin and impurity.

How is it not a sin to create someone you know will sin, some in vast and unimaginable ways?

6. Creator: God is the creator of the universe and everything in it.

He has done an excellent job of not showing his hand in it. Does the entire universe exist just for us?

7. Father and Sustainer: God is portrayed as a Father figure who provides, protects, and sustains His creation.

When has god ever provided for, protected or sustained his creations?

8. Faithful: God is faithful and keeps His promises.

What promises has god ever made to us? That he will send the righteous to heaven and sinners to hell? What promise has god ever made for which you can point at its fulfillment

9. Personal: While God is transcendent and beyond human comprehension, He is also portrayed as a personal God who desires a relationship with humanity.

He is so portrayed. The problem is that everyone under the impression that god has made that personal contact has also been liable to having completely imagined it. If you can identify actual physical evidence of that personal contact, I would love to see it.

These are just a few of the characteristics attributed to God in Christianity. It is important to note that different denominations within Christianity might have slightly different interpretations, but these are common themes across most Christian beliefs.

That's fine. I hope you think about my comments for just a bit. I appreciate the effort you've made. Have an excellent day.

 

[Crick]

Religion promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.

Your god gave humans the world and all its life. Why didn't he give them penicillin?

 

[Crick]

Jesus came with the proclamation, "Sins are forgiven." The religious leaders of his day said he had no authority to say any such thing. What was the sign? (Look up the usual signs of a new covenant between God and mankind, and that will help understand the signs the religious leaders of that day desired.)

Jesus suffered crucifixion but then simply returned to his father's side. The punishment necessary to forgive all of humanity was not his death but his suffering. There's a point in there somewhere.

 

[Crick]

In over 60 years I never once doubted there was a God. You might want to find another rule because the Golden Rule is based on Jesus’ teachings. I don’t care what your beliefs are to me, you are human, you have free will and you can believe what you need to survive, I’m good with that, I will continue to believe in God, as it has never harmed me nor has my faith harmed anyone else.

The Golden Rule predates christianity by quite some time and appears in every religion across the planet. It is not the work of Jesus.

 

[Crick]

In over 60 years I never once doubted there was a God. You might want to find another rule because the Golden Rule is based on Jesus’ teachings. I don’t care what your beliefs are to me, you are human, you have free will and you can believe what you need to survive, I’m good with that, I will continue to believe in God, as it has never harmed me nor has my faith harmed anyone else.

What might you have accomplished during all the time you have spent attempting to communicate with your god?

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus suffered crucifixion but then simply returned to his father's side. The punishment necessary to forgive all of humanity was not his death but his suffering. There's a point in there somewhere.

What if it is not seen as punishment?

At the time of Jesus, how were sins forgiven? One had to offer a sacrifice, and sacrifices were only offered at the Temple in Jerusalem. Enter Jesus who begins forgiving sins. The authorities tell him he has no right to do this, only God can forgive sins.

A new covenant with God has been announced: Repentance (turning away from sin) and sins are forgiven. Think about this. A covenant requires a blood offering. Currently, forgiveness of sin required a sacrifice. Jesus gave himself up for both--the blood as the sign of the New Covenant (also called Testament) with God. His own life as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

This is far from God punishing anyone, let alone his son. It is God's gift to everyone, and the Son/Word of God Himself is that gift to us. Repentance/Turning away from sin for the forgiveness of sins, and our sins are forgiven. All by the gift of God's grace, which leads us to righteousness/sanctification of our souls, a taste of what we receive in this life which mushrooms in the next.

Gift, not punishment. That is who God is.

 

[Crick]

That only proves your dishonesty.

I had not thought of that.

You would not accord the same argument to someone saying "I have believed for X years and never tempted to not believe"---which actually shows you misunderstand both Faith and Reason

On what do you base your conclusion that I would not accord the same argument to others?

If you cannot prove your point, it is sheer admission of irrationality

I assume by "your point" you mean my contention that god's absence is a superior explanation for his apparent response to my prayer of blinding my dog. I am quite certain that such a point is not amenable to proof. It is amenable to logic, reason and rationality and on the basis of those, I stand by my conclusion and do not thing I have been the least bit dishonest.

and if you deny reasonableness to those who think there is a Creator/God then you sin by Pride

I am uncertain what you mean here, but I'll hazard a guess. I do hold that any belief in the supernatural is unreasonable. That is not a consequence of my pride but the confidence I have in my ability to correctly reason. That confidence is not invulnerable. If someone here can demonstrate that deism IS reasonable, I will have to accept it. Many times we have all heard that neither the existence nor non-existence of god is a provable concept and I have never even attempted to refute that point. But evidence I may pile to the sky.

But the bottom line is, YOu deny any part to WILL and yet say everyoone else has bad will

I'm afraid you completely lost me there. With the exception of an offhand remark about omnisicence and free will, I recall no comment of mine on the topic. Please refresh my creaky grey matter.

 

[Libby von H]

So what?

Lots of people do stupid things.

I was never much for Confucianism anyway too many stupid rituals and an authoritarian style just like religion Maybe that's why WU liked it

You didn't even read the short blurb....the rituals have meaning, it has no authoritarian elements, it is not like a religion!!!
C'mon at least pretend to read it

John C.H. Wu​

“To my mind, if the cosmos does not know the significance of life, then it is not God; and if there were no God beyond the cosmos, then all human history would be like dancing to the blind and singing to the deaf; and all noble thought and action would be like kissing a cold statue. I believed in a personal God, not because I wanted to project my personality upon God, but because to deprive Him of this attribute would be making the effect greater than the cause.”
― John C.H. Wu, Beyond East and West


“I maintain that all spirituality must be founded on moral life; but on the other hand, moral life must, so to speak, bathe itself in the ocean of contemplation. Without contemplation, the moral life would tend to degenerate into a dry and narrow humanism. Without the moral life, contemplation would be empty and degenerate into quietism.”
― John C.H. Wu, Chinese Humanism and Christian Spirituality

 

[Crick]

Nice OP. Nice personal touch with your dog. What you say is perfectly logical and consistent to me.

Thank you

My wife grew up in China and is perhaps even more atheistic than you or I — as we had to struggle to free ourselves of inherited communal theistic religion, while the very idea to her always seemed quite naturally ridiculous. Her sense of herself and society and her very language is not filled with unconscious religious imagery, as ours is. She’s also an honest and good wife, with a few quaint little superstitions perhaps.

You sound a lucky man. I trust you're deserving.

Talking about superstitions and atheism, while I agree with you that the whole organized rigmarole of Theistic religion is nonsense, it certainly was a fairly natural development, historically important, and produced great art while it molded our culture and many civilizations.

Yes, but we have little idea what might have come along had it been absent.

Even without religion there will always be pain, suffering and fear of unknowable aspects of life & death likely to create deep spiritual, social, even sometimes political perturbations.

Yes, though I suspect that an absence of religion would reduce spirituality to one of your wife's "quite naturally ridiculous" concepts.

Individual superstitious belief often crops up in these situations, and can even grow into religious belief.

Yes.

Should nuclear war or some other factor lead to the collapse of civilization, my bet is that religion will once again raise its head among the survivors, perhaps quite intensely.

Very likely. Another reason to do what we can to avoid it.

PS: I applaud your avatar and nick.

 

[Crick]

The fact of the matter is the Catholic Church has done far more good for the world than any other organization in history

Are you including the Crusades in that summing up?

 

[Crick]

But you would have to be a god yourself to know that for certain.

And so, unhelpful.

Wisest position is agnostic atheist. That means I admit I don't know but as far as i can see, nothing tells me a god is real.

How do you think the lives of an atheist and an agnostic atheist might differ? Why do you think your position wiser?

And as for organized religions who say god visited, I'm atheist about that. 100% certain it didn't happen.

Why? IF he exists, what would stop him?

The only difference between religions and fairytales is religion stories happened 225 years ago, 500, 2000 or 7000 years ago. And they happened in the middle east or Utah. Fairy tales happened in a far far away place a long long time ago.

I'd say most fairytales that you'd find in an American library take place in Europe or some fay modeled on Europe.

 

[sealybobo]

And so, unhelpful.

How do you think the lives of an atheist and an agnostic atheist might differ? Why do you think your position wiser?

Why? IF he exists, what would stop him?

I'd say most fairytales that you'd find in an American library take place in Europe or some fay modeled on Europe.

Here is my bible Why there is no god

Point 21 answers your question about why my position is better. I used to say I was an atheist too. But how do I KNOW there is no god? I would have to be as naive as believers who believe that God is a fact when he is most certainly not. You would have to believe he visited. I do not. Anyways, I think you will enjoy this link. It's the response to almost everything a theist will say to you about their belief in god. Not just Christianity. Any religion.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.
Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

See also: Critical thinking (a must watch), Richard Feynman on Doubt and Uncertainty (a must watch).

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” – Carl Sagan

“God is an ever-receding pocket of ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller as time goes on.”– Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[Crick]

So what?

You knew who I was talking about and this isn;t a formal paper

Where do you draw the line?

 

[Crick]

Yes to both.

Then he is a genii who changes the physical world at our command.

 

[Crick]

I was saying your dog was in your loving hands. Was he not?

He was. Forgive me if I'm a bit paranoid. My background in other forums has been far more contentious.

 

[Crick]

So you say.

So says scriptures.