Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[P F Tinmore]

Typical Islamist talking points.

Vladimir Jabotinsky and Theodor Herzl were Islamic.

My, what you can't learn on these boards.

 

[P F Tinmore]

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination.

You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.

There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.

Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.

I await your response.

 

[Hollie]

Typical Islamist talking points.

Vladimir Jabotinsky and Theodor Herzl were Islamic.

My, what you can't learn on these boards.

Yeah, strange, that. We learn from Islamic terrorist huggers that various Islamic terrorist franchises are "freedom fighters" and that base acts of savagery against civilians by Islamic terrorists are heroic acts that are to be lauded.

It's truly a sickening pathology.

 

[Shusha]

You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.

Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.

There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.

Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.

Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.

Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.

Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country,

 

[P F Tinmore]

You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.

Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.

There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.

Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.

Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.

Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.

Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country,

Indeed, the Mandate was the road map for the settler colonial project. That is why the Zionists chose Britain, the major colonial power at that time, to have the Mandate for Palestine. Britain could not implement its plan because it got too much push back from the native population. Britain left Palestine in defeat.

 

[Shusha]

Tinmore, I'm not sure how to break this to you .... but the Jewish people implemented the f&$# out of that plan.

 

[Hollie]

You keep saying that without proving it to be true. Which is typical for Israeli talking points.

Its a simple moral imperative. ALL peoples have the inherent right of self-determination. Not SOME peoples. ALL peoples.

There were two people there. There were the Native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

There were the native, indigenous Jewish people. And the Arab people. Two very distinct cultures. Those were and are the two peoples there. Those were and are the two peoples in conflict with each other.

Then there were the foreign colonial settlers.

Self-determination for a peoples includes ALL of those peoples. Outsiders don't get to pick and choose who is part of a self-determining group. That is up to the peoples involved. That is part of the self-determining - self-identification. Jews don't get to decide who considers themselves Palestinian. Palestinians do.

Post one international law or one UN document mentioning any rights for colonial settlers.I await your response.

Um. Once AGAIN. The Mandate for Palestine.

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country,

Indeed, the Mandate was the road map for the settler colonial project. That is why the Zionists chose Britain, the major colonial power at that time, to have the Mandate for Palestine. Britain could not implement its plan because it got too much push back from the native population. Britain left Palestine in defeat.

Indeed, your re-writing of history is a laughable joke. The Zionists™ did not manage or direct which nation would implement the terms of the Mandate.

You befuddled little man.

 

[Challenger]

As to the legal foundation for the Zionist paradise, there isn't one.

Yes. So Team Palestine keeps saying. Saying does not make it so. And repeating the claim ad nauseam without providing legal arguments for the claim simply demonstrates you have no legal argument.

...because there is no legal argument that can be made for a legal foundation of the Zionist paradise. Zionist Israel exists therefore it is...for now at least. It has no legal right to exist, period.

 

[Challenger]

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately.

No you won't; you certainly haven't so far, just the usual Zionist Hasbara BS.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See post #2570

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Peoples, in the sense of indigenous poeople of the place, do. Religious groups, or at least nationalist fanatic segements of religious groups attempting to colonise an area that doesn't belong to them, don't.

the diminishing of the Jewish people

Not at all Jewish people can practice their religion anywhere they like as far as I'm concerned, ideally in their countries of origin, but I'm not fussy.

Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

No they don't, true. Modern Palestinians are made up of many peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who have adhered to many different religions including Judaism. Unlike the European colonists who came to create their own little "Jews only" state and create their own little "national" myth.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Nope. See post #2570

 

[Challenger]

1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.

2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.

(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)

3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group

Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.

Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.

And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.

It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.

 

[Challenger]

I can't wrap my head around how apparently intelligent people can hold opinions which are so contrary to objective reality.

That's because you wouldn't know objective reality if it walked up and introduced itself, being so brainwashed by the long debunked Zionist narrative.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, I'm not sure how to break this to you .... but the Jewish people implemented the f&$# out of that plan.

No they didn't. Israel was created by foreigners in Palestine completely unrelated to the Mandate or resolution 181. They did not get any legitimacy from any of the former proposals.

 

[MJB12741]

1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.

2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.

(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)

3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group

Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.

Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.

And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.

It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.

You were in Israel prior to 1948???

 

[Shusha]

I got up this morning, seeing all these alerts on this thread, hoping for some good discussion. Yawn. All I get, over and over and over again, is lame repetition of the same claims with no discussion or arguments to back it up.

"The Jewish people don't count as a people. And there is no legal right for Israel to exist."

Saying does not make it so. You guys are boring.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish people don't count as a people.

I have never said that.

 

[Challenger]

1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.

2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.

(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)

3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group

Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.

Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.

And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.

It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.

You were in Israel prior to 1948???

Zionist Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.

 

[Challenger]

"The Jewish people don't count as a people. And there is no legal right for Israel to exist."

All people count, regardless of what religion they follow, but in terms of "self-determination" only native indigenous peoples of the place "count" when determining their future, not European settler colonists that have no link to an area other that what their "holy book" tells them, and no, there is no legal right for Zionist israel to exist, no country in existance today has a legal right to exist.

I got up this morning, seeing all these alerts on this thread, hoping for some good discussion.

It must suck being you.

 

[MJB12741]

1. Stating fact is not an appeal to emotion, it is stating fact

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.

2. Without the Zionist plan to create a "Jews only" state there would have been no conflict.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.

(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)

3. Comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The total population of Palestine had an inherent right of self-determination ...

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Shusha's comment pre-supposes that Jewish people worldwide form an ethnicity, rather than a religious group

Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.

Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.

And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

4. Another comment too stupid to warrant a response, but I will nevertheless. The Zionist plan was always to create a "Jews only" state. The reason they initially failed was due mainly to the real fear that world opinion would turn against them. They settled for an 80/205 ration and have been trying to get rid of the remaining 20% ever since by building walls and settlements to create "facts on the ground" and Palestinian "Bantustans" making life so bad for the native population that they would leave.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.

It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.

You were in Israel prior to 1948???

Zionist Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.

So is 1948 when they became known as the Israelites?

 

[Challenger]

And when you start stating facts, I'll respond appropriately. Why don't you start with providing demonstration of the legal fact that the Jewish people are specifically prohibited from self-determination, sovereignty over territory or from forming a government or nation in Palestine.

There is no "Jews only" state. There has never been a "Jews only" state. There was never a plan to create a "Jews only" state.

See, you have to exaggerate your claim to make it sound vile, because otherwise, if you just said, truthfully, the Jewish people wanted a homeland just like all the other people, it would be hard not to take that as a reasonable request.

(Further, there are all sorts of examples of (insert ethnic group)-majority states -- including those created with large population transfers. That is the basic premise of our entire global system of nationality and especially so in the first half of the 20th century. That's what happened when large empires broke up and people began to assert themselves, nationally, based on a homogeneous culture.)

ALL peoples have an inherent right of self-determination. Thus, BOTH peoples in Palestine has an inherent right of self-determination. There is no legal requirement for a peoples right to self-determination be approved by other peoples. Indeed that would be both immoral and self-defeating. Its an inherent right.

Yes, and this is the core of the conflict -- the diminishing of the Jewish people as though they, alone, have fewer or different rights than others. There is absolutely no objective, reasoned criteria which would specifically exclude the Jewish people from being an ethnic group or a "people". There is certainly no legal reason, as the legal definitions of terms such as "peoples" are quite fluid.

Even were that not so, there are plenty of examples of people building nationalities around religious distinctions.

And even with all that, the idea that nations are legal or not legal based on some sort of rules build around the ethnic homogeneity or lack thereof is misleading and false. Nations don't have to fit a certain ethnic profile in order to become nations.

So, your premise here is that Israel is actually trying to make life really miserable for the 20% of Arab Israelis and she is failing colossally because life in Israel just too darn wonderful for the Arabs to want to leave. Really? That is your argument to "prove" that Israel wants a "Jew only" state? That the Jewish people are just too inept at creating a shitty place to live. Wow.

Why is it that as soon as Israel turned a near wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here came hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land.

It was never a wasteland. That's another Zionist lie.

You were in Israel prior to 1948???

Zionist Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.

So is 1948 when they became known as the Israelites?

Nope, Israelis. "Israelites" are either extinct or are called Palestinians nowadays.

 

[Rehmani]

Lets just consider documented facts. Fair enough?

Israel's History and Right to Exist - Discover the Networks

But non of Jew's prophets born in in occupied Palestine.