Israeli "Settlers" and violence

[MHunterB]

Seal, that all sounds as though you care more about your money going for something you are against, than any kind of moral outrage at immoral behavior.

Oh, and it also sounds as though you are judging the world Jewish community as 'supporting atrocities' simply because we aren't all screaming right along with you.

I even get the impression that you do not think ANYTHING any 'Palestinian' has done was 'a war crime' or anything like that.

I am hoping I've just misread your words.......

 

[sealadaigh]

Seal, that all sounds as though you care more about your money going for something you are againstthan any kind of moral outrage at immoral behavior.

Oh, and it also sounds as though you are judging the world Jewish community as 'supporting atrocities' simply because we aren't all screaming right along with you.

I even get the impression that you do not think ANYTHING any 'Palestinian' has done was 'a war crime' or anything like that.

I am hoping I've just misread your words.......

i don't think you are misreading my words. i think instead it is a case of your usual practice of making a weak attempt to twist those words to make me look bad.

 

[toastman]

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

You say you're not attacking Palestinian's, but then in the very next sentence, you call them terrorists!

Learn to read !

 

[Aurin]

Can you honestly tell us why people on this forum who want to appear as such wonderful "humanitarians" have never bothered to go to other forums and condemned what is happening to innocent people in other countries? It appears that these people are the ones with double standards. Do you really think that if this was a forum on, let's say Tibet, they would be going on and on about what the Chinese are doing to the Tibetans in Occupied Tibet. If the Chinese happened to be Jewish, maybe then they would.

This seems like a deflection to avoid engaging with the issue at hand.

I think the reason I/P gets so much attention is because many, many Americans are practically cheering on the genocide of Palestinians. I don't think anyone that defends Palestine wouldn't simultaneously defend other oppressed peoples, but who would they be arguing against and what argument would they be making? Very few people need convincing that atrocities are bad, but for whatever reason, many people need convincing that Israel isn't the victim some believe it to be.

 

[Lipush]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

Hadas Fogel, 3 months old, was shot and her throat being cut by a Palestinian.

Shalhevet Pass, less than 1 year old, was shot dead when sleeping in her stroller, by a Palestinian.

Helena Rapp, age 14, was brutally attacked and had her still beating heart ripped out of her chest, by a Palestinian.

Shlomo Nativ, 12 years old, was slaughtered by an axe near his house, by a Palestinian.

I could go on...

 

[Hossfly]

Can you honestly tell us why people on this forum who want to appear as such wonderful "humanitarians" have never bothered to go to other forums and condemned what is happening to innocent people in other countries? It appears that these people are the ones with double standards. Do you really think that if this was a forum on, let's say Tibet, they would be going on and on about what the Chinese are doing to the Tibetans in Occupied Tibet. If the Chinese happened to be Jewish, maybe then they would.

This seems like a deflection to avoid engaging with the issue at hand.

I think the reason I/P gets so much attention is because many, many Americans are practically cheering on the genocide of Palestinians. I don't think anyone that defends Palestine wouldn't simultaneously defend other oppressed peoples, but who would they be arguing against and what argument would they be making? Very few people need convincing that atrocities are bad, but for whatever reason, many people need convincing that Israel isn't the victim some believe it to be.

Your first statement shows you must not be following the conversation and the second makes me believe you want people to play a ball game without a ball.

 

[Aurin]

Genocide of Palestinians ?? Yikes ! Arab propaganda at work !

Sorry for the confusion. Allow me to illustrate that the word "practical" was used for a reason.

Do you truly believe there isn't an Anti-Muslim bias in American culture? Many people strongly believe that the world would be rid of many issues if we "just bombed them all".

 

[Aurin]

Your first statement shows you must not be following the conversation and the second makes me believe you want people to play a ball game without a ball.

I realize I'm a little late to the conversation so I wasn't allowed to interject, but it still does not change the fact that you have entirely failed to address the claims of the thread and instead redirected attention by poisoning the well of those who wish to defend Palestinians.

 

[toastman]

Your first statement shows you must not be following the conversation and the second makes me believe you want people to play a ball game without a ball.

I realize I'm a little late to the conversation so I wasn't allowed to interject, but it still does not change the fact that you have entirely failed to address the claims of the thread and instead redirected attention by poisoning the well of those who wish to defend Palestinians.

We're not talking about those who defend Palestinians, but those who defend Palestinian terrorists

 

[Aurin]

I might be mistaken, but from what I've read, certain posters have been critical of Israel and are accused of double-standards.

The "defending Palestinians terrorists" bit just seems like a play on words to continue to detract from the criticisms of Israel.

Also, just as an aside, the word "terrorist" has been overused in so many contexts that it's lost almost all meaning.

 

[Lipush]

"largely unchallenged by the police or army"

I suggest you google "Amona pogrom"

the police and authorities were ordered by the courts to dismantle permanent structures ILLEGALLY built in the settlement of amona on the private property of some palestinian families. in attempting to do so, they were met by a large group of jewish protestors who hurled bricks, metal pipes, stones and whatever was handy at the police. both sides afflicted injuries upon the other before the structures were eveacuated.

i think the fact that you call such an incident a "pogrom", as an israeli citisen, more than proves coyote's point...and also says a helluva lot about you and israelis in general. you have also brought up another instance of de facto apartheid.

the reaction of the israeli forces to the settlers in this "pogrom" could accurately be called mild relative to the reaction of israeli forces to far less threatening protests of palestinians.

The resistance by the Jewish settlers was cruel, that is true.

Though the police used force that reminded us dark times. little girls were left bleeding, people got almost killed.

Why is that not mentioned in your post?

I call it pogrom because that what it was. defensless children were beaten and bled out, almost to death

Watch this video carefully and then tell me who is the violent one-

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8R8msUtVpo]amona pogrom - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Lipush]

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

I can't imagine myself wanting to do that.

I also can't imagine myself ever living with such an act on my conscience.

I can't imagine hating enough for that.

But also, I have never:
been truly desperate
afraid for my life
in a situation where I knew there could be no justice for me
faced with corruption that would insure no justice
without a country
despised for who I am
afraid of losing my home for no reason I could fight
afraid of my family being killed
never knowing if I might be arrested for who I am
never been locked up without access to any source of help
never faced desperation
never faced a choice of doing something unspeakable or having my family suffer

Well, wake up, millions live like that in many places around the world.

They don't use that as an excuse to shoot babies in their sleep.

 

[Hossfly]

I might be mistaken, but from what I've read, certain posters have been critical of Israel and are accused of double-standards.

The "defending Palestinians terrorists" bit just seems like a play on words to continue to detract from the criticisms of Israel.

Also, just as an aside, the word "terrorist" has been overused in so many contexts that it's lost almost all meaning.

Ask a terror attack survivor if they were attacked by a "terrorist" or a Salvation Army bell ringer.

 

[Hossfly]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

Hadas Fogel, 3 months old, was shot and her throat being cut by a Palestinian.

Shalhevet Pass, less than 1 year old, was shot dead when sleeping in her stroller, by a Palestinian.

Helena Rapp, age 14, was brutally attacked and had her still beating heart ripped out of her chest, by a Palestinian.

Shlomo Nativ, 12 years old, was slaughtered by an axe near his house, by a Palestinian.

I could go on...

Please don't.

 

[Aurin]

Yeah, I realize terrorists exist and it has a definition.

It's just some words get experience careless use by so many people that they start to lose all meaning when used in any context. Terrorism is just one of those words.

 

[Lipush]

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

I can't imagine myself wanting to do that.

I also can't imagine myself ever living with such an act on my conscience.

I can't imagine hating enough for that.

But also, I have never:
been truly desperate
afraid for my life
in a situation where I knew there could be no justice for me
faced with corruption that would insure no justice
without a country
despised for who I am
afraid of losing my home for no reason I could fight
afraid of my family being killed
never knowing if I might be arrested for who I am
never been locked up without access to any source of help
never faced desperation
never faced a choice of doing something unspeakable or having my family suffer

There are a lot of situations I've never faced. If faced with life or death - or, more important, the life or death of my child or family - what would I choose to do? I know what I hope, but I've never faced it.

In the case of the Fogels, did they catch who was responsible? I can't imagine someone doing being any different from some of the cold blooded Nazi's who coldly and systematically selected Jews for human experimentation. I feel that same way about those who ordered white phospherous into Gaza as well. It's inhuman. And cold blooded.

And above all, they had to know it would hurt and maim innocents. But they couldn't have considered them humans. They had to be seen as less than human. Or how could a person do it?

For the Fogels, the killers have been caught, and they still feel proud of what they did.

Imagine a scenario. Yishai Fogel, he should be about 3 or 4 years old now, I believe. he lives with his uncles inside the green line, now.

When he asks Tamar, or Roi, or any others, "Where are mama and papa" (something that many Palestinian kids ask, as well, let us not forget or ignore that fact, for the sake of honesty and fairness) and Tamar will one day have to tell him, in that case, would it be "understood" if he will want revenge? against the people who took his parents away? would he go shooting some palestinian baby girl in her crub, just like was done to his sister?

Of course not, that would be insane and wrong and in so many ways disturbing. Tamar herself has been expelled from her home, and had her parents and her brothers killed, and she must have been so afraid when arriving the scene, so what? by that sense, any action of revenge by her, or remainging siblings, should be understood, right?

NO.

That's the main idea. I cannot put myself in her position, or in position of a Palestinian in the same situation. but go on open killing like that? I don't think I ever could, I would have killed myself beforehand.

 

[Lipush]

The Israeli media refers to them as settlers and their actions are that of "settlers".

Well, the Israeli media is deep leftist

Actually, I made kind of a poor analogy in my OP comparing attitudes to immigrants or Germans - the Israeli settlers remind me very strongly of the American settlers expanding westward and their attitudes and treatments of the indiginous tribes.

Well, that's your issue

They felt compelled by "manifest destiny" - they had the right to take the lands, and part of the right was that the "savages" were doing nothing to improve the lands - as if being nomadic or subsistance/communal farming was not enough. Like the Israeli's with the Palestinians they confiscated lands they desired by right of manifest destiny. The Indians fought back in much the same way as the Palestinians and their tactics were bloody - but, in the face of far advanced weaponry and organization, they were all either "domesticated" (ie - they "knew their place") or relegated to reservations on the most resource poor lands that existed.

I think there are similarities to the settler's sense of entitlement and the American expansionist movement.

Let's just say I disagree

 

[Billo_Really]

Learn to read !

I know how to read and he doesn't qualify terrorists in his statement.

That's not my fault.

 

[Hossfly]

Yeah, I realize terrorists exist and it has a definition.

It's just some words get experience careless use by so many people that they start to lose all meaning when used in any context. Terrorism is just one of those words.

FYI, terrorism is any type of coercion or harm from a verbal threat to a nuke. It doesn't get any simpler and doesn't need to be dressed up to where people get confused about the meaning, such as a 3 page disertation by Noam Chumpsky.

 

[sealadaigh]

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

I can't imagine myself wanting to do that.

I also can't imagine myself ever living with such an act on my conscience.

I can't imagine hating enough for that.

But also, I have never:
been truly desperate
afraid for my life
in a situation where I knew there could be no justice for me
faced with corruption that would insure no justice
without a country
despised for who I am
afraid of losing my home for no reason I could fight
afraid of my family being killed
never knowing if I might be arrested for who I am
never been locked up without access to any source of help
never faced desperation
never faced a choice of doing something unspeakable or having my family suffer

There are a lot of situations I've never faced. If faced with life or death - or, more important, the life or death of my child or family - what would I choose to do? I know what I hope, but I've never faced it.

In the case of the Fogels, did they catch who was responsible? I can't imagine someone doing being any different from some of the cold blooded Nazi's who coldly and systematically selected Jews for human experimentation. I feel that same way about those who ordered white phospherous into Gaza as well. It's inhuman. And cold blooded.

And above all, they had to know it would hurt and maim innocents. But they couldn't have considered them humans. They had to be seen as less than human. Or how could a person do it?

For the Fogels, the killers have been caught, and they still feel proud of what they did.

Imagine a scenario. Yishai Fogel, he should be about 3 or 4 years old now, I believe. he lives with his uncles inside the green line, now.

When he asks Tamar, or Roi, or any others, "Where are mama and papa" (something that many Palestinian kids ask, as well, let us not forget or ignore that fact, for the sake of honesty and fairness) and Tamar will one day have to tell him, in that case, would it be "understood" if he will want revenge? against the people who took his parents away? would he go shooting some palestinian baby girl in her crub, just like was done to his sister?

Of course not, that would be insane and wrong and in so many ways disturbing. Tamar herself has been expelled from her home, and had her parents and her brothers killed, and she must have been so afraid when arriving the scene, so what? by that sense, any action of revenge by her, or remainging siblings, should be understood, right?

NO.

That's the main idea. I cannot put myself in her position, or in position of a Palestinian in the same situation. but go on open killing like that? I don't think I ever could, I would have killed myself beforehand.

i seem to recaall someone saying exactly..."war is cruel".

it almost sounded like an excuse.