Israeli "Settlers" and violence

[sealadaigh]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

The point just flew right over you head eh ?

thank god the point wasn't carrying a one tonne bomb.

dead infants and children are dead infants and children and all should be mourned. i don't think the particulars matter, be it by knife, sniper fire, or artillery round.

and again and because of the nature of this board, i want to emphasise that i am not in anyway trying to justify or excuse the actions of the two palestinians who killed the fogels or mitigate the horror in any way. i think, however, it is important to realise that these things do not happen in a vacuum.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They do not call themselves "settlers". Settlers is a word which is foreign and not the correct form of how they call themselves.

The Israeli media refers to them as settlers and their actions are that of "settlers".

Actually, I made kind of a poor analogy in my OP comparing attitudes to immigrants or Germans - the Israeli settlers remind me very strongly of the American settlers expanding westward and their attitudes and treatments of the indiginous tribes.

They felt compelled by "manifest destiny" - they had the right to take the lands, and part of the right was that the "savages" were doing nothing to improve the lands - as if being nomadic or subsistance/communal farming was not enough. Like the Israeli's with the Palestinians they confiscated lands they desired by right of manifest destiny. The Indians fought back in much the same way as the Palestinians and their tactics were bloody - but, in the face of far advanced weaponry and organization, they were all either "domesticated" (ie - they "knew their place") or relegated to reservations on the most resource poor lands that existed.

I think there are similarities to the settler's sense of entitlement and the American expansionist movement.

They have been called settlers for over a hundred years and they did not live with the inhabitants. They lived in settlements.

 

[sealadaigh]

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

I can't imagine myself wanting to do that.

I also can't imagine myself ever living with such an act on my conscience.

I can't imagine hating enough for that.

But also, I have never:
been truly desperate
afraid for my life
in a situation where I knew there could be no justice for me
faced with corruption that would insure no justice
without a country
despised for who I am
afraid of losing my home for no reason I could fight
afraid of my family being killed
never knowing if I might be arrested for who I am
never been locked up without access to any source of help
never faced desperation
never faced a choice of doing something unspeakable or having my family suffer

There are a lot of situations I've never faced. If faced with life or death - or, more important, the life or death of my child or family - what would I choose to do? I know what I hope, but I've never faced it.

In the case of the Fogels, did they catch who was responsible? I can't imagine someone doing being any different from some of the cold blooded Nazi's who coldly and systematically selected Jews for human experimentation. I feel that same way about those who ordered white phospherous into Gaza as well. It's inhuman. And cold blooded.

And above all, they had to know it would hurt and maim innocents. But they couldn't have considered them humans. They had to be seen as less than human. Or how could a person do it?

i think it is called despair.

i couldn't imagine myself doing it either, but i think if we fail to understand the reasons, whatever they are, we not only do ourselves a disservice, but those children as well. if all we had to do was wring our hands and condemn such acts, it would be easy. the more we understand, the more likely we are to be able to prevent them from rehappening.

 

[sealadaigh]

"largely unchallenged by the police or army"

I suggest you google "Amona pogrom"

the police and authorities were ordered by the courts to dismantle permanent structures ILLEGALLY built in the settlement of amona on the private property of some palestinian families. in attempting to do so, they were met by a large group of jewish protestors who hurled bricks, metal pipes, stones and whatever was handy at the police. both sides afflicted injuries upon the other before the structures were eveacuated.

i think the fact that you call such an incident a "pogrom", as an israeli citisen, more than proves coyote's point...and also says a helluva lot about you and israelis in general. you have also brought up another instance of de facto apartheid.

the reaction of the israeli forces to the settlers in this "pogrom" could accurately be called mild relative to the reaction of israeli forces to far less threatening protests of palestinians.

If you are so concerned about protestors, how come you never brought up how protestors are treated in other countries in the Middle East when you had your chance on another forum? Surely even you must realize what happens to them, that they certainly aren't treated with kid gloves. Look how many protestors were killed in Egypt just the other week. This is why it is very difficult to take you as the big humanitarian on his white horse worrying about protestors.

this is not the "protests in the notorious bumfuck, egypt" forum.

where did i ever say i was concerned about protestors. i am concerned about equal and fair treatment. i don't think you can excuse the gunning down of imam al-hams, dropping bombs on gaza apartment buildings filled with children, WP rounds, the dropping of cluster bombs all over lebanon, and atrocity after atrocity after war crimes after human rights abuse after atrocity and then have the ******* god damned unmitigated gall to call the demolition of an illegal settlement and the reaction of the authorities involved to the jewish settlers throwing cinderblocks at those same authorities ( do you know what a cinder-*******-block is sarge. i am replying to a woman who has called stones a deadly weapon)...you don't call what the IDF did a mother ******* "POGROM".

 

[MJB12741]

Bottom line is if the Arab countries didn't unite to annihilate Israel there would not have been any additional land captured & thus no settlers on it to ***** about.

 

[Coyote]

Bottom line is if the Arab countries didn't unite to annihilate Israel there would not have been any additional land captured & thus no settlers on it to ***** about.

It was a lot more complicated then that. According to Israeli documents and biographies of leading officials at the time - they wanted more land and had a hand in provoking conflict. Why else would they have held on to it so long?

Sure, the Arabs acted aggressively too. But Israel was no innocent victim.

 

[MJB12741]

Well, according to the Qur'an, Israel belongs to the Jews. Are there no Qur'ans among the Palestinians to educate them?

Bottom line is if the Arab countries didn't unite to annihilate Israel there would not have been any additional land captured & thus no settlers on it to ***** about.

It was a lot more complicated then that. According to Israeli documents and biographies of leading officials at the time - they wanted more land and had a hand in provoking conflict. Why else would they have held on to it so long?

Sure, the Arabs acted aggressively too. But Israel was no innocent victim.

 

[MJB12741]

The Qur'an and the Land of Israel

 

[Coyote]

Well, according to the Qur'an, Israel belongs to the Jews. Are there no Qur'ans among the Palestinians to educate them?

Bottom line is if the Arab countries didn't unite to annihilate Israel there would not have been any additional land captured & thus no settlers on it to ***** about.

It was a lot more complicated then that. According to Israeli documents and biographies of leading officials at the time - they wanted more land and had a hand in provoking conflict. Why else would they have held on to it so long?

Sure, the Arabs acted aggressively too. But Israel was no innocent victim.

Which has what to do with anything? Israel as defined by what borders? Since when do ancient religious myths determine modern national borders?

 

[Hossfly]

the police and authorities were ordered by the courts to dismantle permanent structures ILLEGALLY built in the settlement of amona on the private property of some palestinian families. in attempting to do so, they were met by a large group of jewish protestors who hurled bricks, metal pipes, stones and whatever was handy at the police. both sides afflicted injuries upon the other before the structures were eveacuated.

i think the fact that you call such an incident a "pogrom", as an israeli citisen, more than proves coyote's point...and also says a helluva lot about you and israelis in general. you have also brought up another instance of de facto apartheid.

the reaction of the israeli forces to the settlers in this "pogrom" could accurately be called mild relative to the reaction of israeli forces to far less threatening protests of palestinians.

If you are so concerned about protestors, how come you never brought up how protestors are treated in other countries in the Middle East when you had your chance on another forum? Surely even you must realize what happens to them, that they certainly aren't treated with kid gloves. Look how many protestors were killed in Egypt just the other week. This is why it is very difficult to take you as the big humanitarian on his white horse worrying about protestors.

this is not the "protests in the notorious bumfuck, egypt" forum.

where did i ever say i was concerned about protestors. i am concerned about equal and fair treatment. i don't think you can excuse the gunning down of imam al-hams, dropping bombs on gaza apartment buildings filled with children, WP rounds, the dropping of cluster bombs all over lebanon, and atrocity after atrocity after war crimes after human rights abuse after atrocity and then have the ******* god damned unmitigated gall to call the demolition of an illegal settlement and the reaction of the authorities involved to the jewish settlers throwing cinderblocks at those same authorities ( do you know what a cinder-*******-block is sarge. i am replying to a woman who has called stones a deadly weapon)...you don't call what the IDF did a mother ******* "POGROM".

Let's put it this way, Seal. When you had a good chance of discussing the Miiddle East and all the people who were being killed, you kept your mouth shut. It was more important for you to play different characters to fool the readers. So you can get on your high horse all you want while Christians are being murdered all the time in the Middle East. (I guess since the Jews are not involved with this, you just don't think about it.) Of course, all the aerial bombings by the Syrian Air Force is just a walk in the park plus the rebels murdering innocent people. Approximately 100,000 people have died in this Civil War so far (along with others who have died in this Arab Spring in the Middle East. Apparently you think Israel has done worse. Nobody is saying that Israel is a perfect country. There are no perfect countries on this planet. However, the way you and those like you want others to think is that Israel is the worse country in the world, but when you compare Israel to what other countries are doing, this just doesn't wash.

 

[Coyote]

On the other hand, this is the I/P forum.

There are people in the world that do far worse than the Palestinians or Muslims. Yet, here there are posters who seem only to post to attack them. They don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Funny that.

 

[Hossfly]

On the other hand, this is the I/P forum.

There are people in the world that do far worse than the Palestinians or Muslims. Yet, here there are posters who seem only to post to attack them. They don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Funny that.

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

 

[Coyote]

On the other hand, this is the I/P forum.

There are people in the world that do far worse than the Palestinians or Muslims. Yet, here there are posters who seem only to post to attack them. They don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Funny that.

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

I think it would be equally accurate to say "no one" (will not exactly "no one" but many) aren't attacking Israel, but are attacking the "blithering idiots" who defend Israel's double standards of justice and occupation of Palestinian territories.

I still can't figure out why they don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

 

[Hossfly]

On the other hand, this is the I/P forum.

There are people in the world that do far worse than the Palestinians or Muslims. Yet, here there are posters who seem only to post to attack them. They don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Funny that.

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

I think it would be equally accurate to say "no one" (will not exactly "no one" but many) aren't attacking Israel, but are attacking the "blithering idiots" who defend Israel's double standards of justice and occupation of Palestinian territories.

I still can't figure out why they don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Can you honestly tell us why people on this forum who want to appear as such wonderful "humanitarians" have never bothered to go to other forums and condemned what is happening to innocent people in other countries? It appears that these people are the ones with double standards. Do you really think that if this was a forum on, let's say Tibet, they would be going on and on about what the Chinese are doing to the Tibetans in Occupied Tibet. If the Chinese happened to be Jewish, maybe then they would.

 

[Coyote]

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

I think it would be equally accurate to say "no one" (will not exactly "no one" but many) aren't attacking Israel, but are attacking the "blithering idiots" who defend Israel's double standards of justice and occupation of Palestinian territories.

I still can't figure out why they don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Can you honestly tell us why people on this forum who want to appear as such wonderful "humanitarians" have never bothered to go to other forums and condemned what is happening to innocent people in other countries? It appears that these people are the ones with double standards. Do you really think that if this was a forum on, let's say Tibet, they would be going on and on about what the Chinese are doing to the Tibetans in Occupied Tibet. If the Chinese happened to be Jewish, maybe then they would.

Here's what I notice Hossfly.

There are a large number of people who post ONLY on I/P.

Great defenders. Great flamers.

But ONLY in I/P.

Now, here's what else I notice.

It's not just those critical of Israel.

 

[Billo_Really]

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

You say you're not attacking Palestinian's, but then in the very next sentence, you call them terrorists!

 

[Hossfly]

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

You say you're not attacking Palestinian's, but then in the very next sentence, you call them terrorists!

Pardon my grammar. I think most people would assume I meant (Hamas & Muslim Brotherhood) terrorists. Maybe you and I could get up a petition on this forum that each member should be required to take an I.Q. test to qualify to post. A poster would have to have an I.Q of 17+. Agreed?

 

[MJB12741]

Who but Palestinians ever stooped so low as to massacre others at the Olympics? Oh wait, Palestinians aren't terrorists.

On the other hand, this is the I/P forum.

There are people in the world that do far worse than the Palestinians or Muslims. Yet, here there are posters who seem only to post to attack them. They don't post about atrocities that occur elsewhere or by other people.

Funny that.

 

[sealadaigh]

If you are so concerned about protestors, how come you never brought up how protestors are treated in other countries in the Middle East when you had your chance on another forum? Surely even you must realize what happens to them, that they certainly aren't treated with kid gloves. Look how many protestors were killed in Egypt just the other week. This is why it is very difficult to take you as the big humanitarian on his white horse worrying about protestors.

this is not the "protests in the notorious bumfuck, egypt" forum.

where did i ever say i was concerned about protestors. i am concerned about equal and fair treatment. i don't think you can excuse the gunning down of imam al-hams, dropping bombs on gaza apartment buildings filled with children, WP rounds, the dropping of cluster bombs all over lebanon, and atrocity after atrocity after war crimes after human rights abuse after atrocity and then have the ******* god damned unmitigated gall to call the demolition of an illegal settlement and the reaction of the authorities involved to the jewish settlers throwing cinderblocks at those same authorities ( do you know what a cinder-*******-block is sarge. i am replying to a woman who has called stones a deadly weapon)...you don't call what the IDF did a mother ******* "POGROM".

Let's put it this way, Seal. When you had a good chance of discussing the Miiddle East and all the people who were being killed, you kept your mouth shut. It was more important for you to play different characters to fool the readers. So you can get on your high horse all you want while Christians are being murdered all the time in the Middle East. (I guess since the Jews are not involved with this, you just don't think about it.) Of course, all the aerial bombings by the Syrian Air Force is just a walk in the park plus the rebels murdering innocent people. Approximately 100,000 people have died in this Civil War so far (along with others who have died in this Arab Spring in the Middle East. Apparently you think Israel has done worse. Nobody is saying that Israel is a perfect country. There are no perfect countries on this planet. However, the way you and those like you want others to think is that Israel is the worse country in the world, but when you compare Israel to what other countries are doing, this just doesn't wash.

i have condemned other states and their inhumane practices.

in the future, you can probably expect me to be more critical of other states and their leaders when our congress passes bills and resolutions pledging themour unconditional support, when we start supplying them with our most sophisticated weaponry, when they start receiving our top foreign aid dolar, when we build memorial museums to commemorate their national tragedies, when their lobbying arms become so influential that their leaders are invited to speak before our joint sessions of congress, when they can attack and kill our military personel and be let of the hook with impunity...well, that oughta do or starters anyway.

i have never ever said there are not other countries worse than israel. there are. i am just not footing the bill for their atrocities the way i am for israel. i am not claiming that these countries are our greatest allies....and, unlike you, i do not use the human rights abuses and atrocities of these other countries to otherwise excuse or mitigate the horrible war crimes, human rights abuses, very real acts of genocide (look it up), and violations of international law comitted by israel and supported by her citisens and most jews world wide, including most american jews.

an d'tuigeann tu, amadan mor?

 

[MHunterB]

No one is attacking the Palestinians. They are attacking the mindless, blithering idiots who defend the terrorists. And by using examples.

You say you're not attacking Palestinian's, but then in the very next sentence, you call them terrorists!

I think your interpretation of his wording is faulty.

It should be understood that 'the terrorists' is not intended to be descriptive of ALL Palestinians, but only of those who attack civilian Israelis.