Israel & iran

[Foxfyre]

At least I know what international law allows a country to legally attack another.

what's all that talk about legality?
Was that US attack on Iraq legal? Or Afghanistan? Was it in accordance with international law?

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

also, what you "know" about international law does not seem to hold much water.

Article 2, Section 4 of the U.N. Charter is generally considered to be 'jus cogens' (literally: "compelling law", in practice: "higher international law"), and prohibits all U.N. members from exercising "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state". Some have argued that Article 51 of the UN Charter permits self defense, however, article 51 also stipulates that self defense by a member state is justified only if, "an armed attack occurs," against it. From this it is reasonable to assume that if no armed attack has yet occurred that no automatic justification for preemptive 'self-defense' has yet been made 'legal' under the UN Charter.

Preemptive war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As it turns out under international law there is no justification for preemptive war even when the threat is imminent.

To the letter of the law, you're right. But I somehow think, if some country has a fleet of ships off are coast line with landing craft and soldiers massing in boats, I think no one could blame us for firing the first shot.

Also there are treaties and alliances. Does anybody with a clue think that Israel would exist right now if the rest of the world did not know that the USA and the U.K. and possibly a few others would come to its immediate defense if seriously attacked?

How does a little country survive amidst enemies unless it has big, strong, friends?

Why do no European countries have significant armies anymore? They don't need them because they know that N.A.T.O. will assemble and utilize a sizable army to defend them against anyone who attacks them. And they know the U.S.A., the one remaining super power, will provide a huge chunk of that army.

 

[Wolverine1984]

At least I know what international law allows a country to legally attack another.

what's all that talk about legality?
Was that US attack on Iraq legal? Or Afghanistan? Was it in accordance with international law?

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

also, what you "know" about international law does not seem to hold much water.

Article 2, Section 4 of the U.N. Charter is generally considered to be 'jus cogens' (literally: "compelling law", in practice: "higher international law"), and prohibits all U.N. members from exercising "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state". Some have argued that Article 51 of the UN Charter permits self defense, however, article 51 also stipulates that self defense by a member state is justified only if, "an armed attack occurs," against it. From this it is reasonable to assume that if no armed attack has yet occurred that no automatic justification for preemptive 'self-defense' has yet been made 'legal' under the UN Charter.

Preemptive war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As it turns out under international law there is no justification for preemptive war even when the threat is imminent.

To the letter of the law, you're right. But I somehow think, if some country has a fleet of ships off are coast line with landing craft and soldiers massing in boats, I think no one could blame us for firing the first shot.

No one could blame is a far stretch from legal.
Anyway,nowadays one has no need for fleets of ships, massive amounts of troops, and other conventional means. Nowadays it's enough to have nuclear weapons. And if a country develops nuclear weapons it's equivalent to massing troops and ships.

 

[JStone]

what's all that talk about legality?
Was that US attack on Iraq legal? Or Afghanistan? Was it in accordance with international law?

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

also, what you "know" about international law does not seem to hold much water.

Preemptive war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As it turns out under international law there is no justification for preemptive war even when the threat is imminent.

To the letter of the law, you're right. But I somehow think, if some country has a fleet of ships off are coast line with landing craft and soldiers massing in boats, I think no one could blame us for firing the first shot.

Also there are treaties and alliances. Does anybody with a clue think that Israel would exist right now if the rest of the world did not know that the USA and the U.K. and possibly a few others would come to its immediate defense if seriously attacked?

How does a little country survive amidst enemies unless it has big, strong, friends?

Why do no European countries have significant armies anymore? They don't need them because they know that N.A.T.O. will assemble and utilize a sizable army to defend them against anyone who attacks them. And they know the U.S.A., the one remaining super power, will provide a huge chunk of that army.

Open a history book so you don't look so uneducated. The US did not provide military assistance to Israel when it decisively defeated multiple arab militaries in an existential war in 1948.

Today, Israel is the 4th largest military contractor in the world, ahead of the UK. Virtually every military in the world deploys Israeli military technology, such as UAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan pioneered for combat by Israel

Now, even you know

 

[Billo_Really]

Open a history book so you don't look so uneducated. The US did not provide military assistance to Israel when it decisively defeated multiple arab militaries in an existential war in 1948.

Today, Israel is the 4th largest military contractor in the world, ahead of the UK. Virtually every military in the world deploys Israeli military technology, such as UAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan pioneered for combat by Israel

Now, even you know

A war started by jewish terrorists against innocent arabs.

 

[Billo_Really]

No one could blame is a far stretch from legal.
Anyway,nowadays one has no need for fleets of ships, massive amounts of troops, and other conventional means. Nowadays it's enough to have nuclear weapons. And if a country develops nuclear weapons it's equivalent to massing troops and ships.

We don't even need to go that far. As long as we have that box in the corner, you can take over a country without even leaving your home.

 

[Billo_Really]

Also there are treaties and alliances. Does anybody with a clue think that Israel would exist right now if the rest of the world did not know that the USA and the U.K. and possibly a few others would come to its immediate defense if seriously attacked?

How does a little country survive amidst enemies unless it has big, strong, friends?

Why do no European countries have significant armies anymore? They don't need them because they know that N.A.T.O. will assemble and utilize a sizable army to defend them against anyone who attacks them. And they know the U.S.A., the one remaining super power, will provide a huge chunk of that army.

Israel doesn't need any help. They're the big dog in the ME. They run that part of the world. No one has the capability of wiping them out, even if they wanted to. And the last time someone tried, got their ass kicked in just 8 days.

 

[JStone]

Open a history book so you don't look so uneducated. The US did not provide military assistance to Israel when it decisively defeated multiple arab militaries in an existential war in 1948.

Today, Israel is the 4th largest military contractor in the world, ahead of the UK. Virtually every military in the world deploys Israeli military technology, such as UAVs in Iraq and Afghanistan pioneered for combat by Israel

Now, even you know

A war started by jewish terrorists against innocent arabs.

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book for you.

Eminent Historian Sir Martin Gilbert, Author of 10 Books on Middle East History

The Arab Invasion of the State of Israel 15 May 1948

On 15 May, 1948 six Arab armies, those of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, invaded Israel. They advanced rapidly, threatening to destroy the one-day old State and drive its citizens into the sea. The Israelis resisted and after ten days were able to counter-attack

Between May 1948 and January 1949, the State of Israel fought to retain its independence against the combined forces of six Arab armies. Following the initial Arab invasion, the Israelis reopened the road to Jerusalem, won control of the Coastal Plain, secured the upper Galilee, and drove the Egyptians from the Negev.

But, the Israelis were themselves driven from the from the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, whose synagogues were desecrated and whose Jewish houses were destroyed.

During Israel's struggle for independence between November 1947 and January 1949, more than 4,000 Jewish soldiers and 2,000 civilians were killed out of a total Jewish population of only 650,000. The figures for Arab dead were not disclosed by the Arab states.

The UN estimated that over 725,000 Arabs fled between April and December 1948. Many Arabs were encouraged to leave by their own political leaders who promised them that they would soon be able to return to their homes once Israel had been destroyed. But, over 150,000 Arabs either remained in Israel or returned to their homes in Israel during 1949.

In April 1949, at the UN Palestine Conciliation Commission at Lausanne, Israel offered to repatriate 100,000 Arab refugees within the framework of a general settlement. The Arab delegation rejected the offer. In 1950 the United Nations Relief and Works Agency [UNRWA] proposed resettling Arab refugees in Sinai, Jordan and Syria, but the Arab governments also rejected this proposal. In 1952, the UN Refugee Rehabilitation Fund offered the Arab states $200 million to find homes and jobs for the refugees. The Arab states used some of the money for relief work, but did not even apply for the greater part of the fund.

In 1949, some 150,000 Arabs remained in Israel. By 1956, their numbers had increased to 312,000 or 11% of the total populaiton. Less than 5,000 Arabs left Israel during this period. From 1959, Arabs could join the Israeli Trade Union Organization and on 1 December 1966 Israeli Military Government was abolished in all Arab areas. Since 1949, Arabs voted in all Israeli elections and sent their own members to the Israeli Parliament. Since May 1948, both Hebrew and Arabic have been the official languages of the State of Israel and three Arabic language daily newspapers have been in regular production. But throughout this period, the Arabs maintained separate communities and cultural life as did the 30,000 Bedouin who lived in the Negev and around Beersheba.

The majority of the Arabs who remained in Israel after May 19488 lived in the northernmost part ofj the State. Whereas the Arabs who fled from Israel in 1948 were for the most part confined to refugee camps by their fellow Arab hosts and deliberately cut off from the economic development of the States in which they lived, the Arabs of Israel continued to live unmolested in their original homes, gained materially from Israel's own material successes and received direct Israeli aid for irrigation, reclamation, mechanization and social welfare [including education, health and housing]

Palestinian terrorist groups, or fedayeen, began systematic raids into Israel from 1950. Toward the end of 1954, the Egyptian Government supervised the formal establishment of Palestinian terrorist groups in the Gaza strip and northeastern Sinai. Throughout 1955 an increasing number of raids were launched into Israel. From 1951 to 1958, Israeli vehicles were ambushed, farms attacked, fields boobytrapped and roads mined. Fedayeen from Gaza also infiltrated into Jordan and operated from there. Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon each gave the Fedayeen support and refure. Local Jordanian-Palestinian Fedayeen were also active operating from the West Bank.
Amazon.com: Martin Gilbert'sThe Routledge Atlas of Jewish History (Routledge Historical Atlases) [Hardcover](2010): M., (Author) Gilbert: Books

 

[docmauser1]

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

That's a pretty un-American thing to say, since our country is based on the rule of law.

Has the constitution been abolished, yet?

 

[Billo_Really]

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book for you.

Eminent Historian Sir Martin Gilbert, Author of 10 Books on Middle East History

The Arab Invasion of the State of Israel 15 May 1948

You need to start when the mass migration of jews into that area began. Remember? You even claimed on an earlier post that it was a "baron wasteland", before the jews got there. That means they weren't there before. Which means they moved there. And that is when the problem started, because they displaced the people who were already living there.

You're such a fuckin' liar!

 

[Billo_Really]

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

That's a pretty un-American thing to say, since our country is based on the rule of law.

Has the constitution been abolished, yet?

No, it's been rendered "null and void" by the Patriot and Military Commission's Acts.

 

[JStone]

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book for you.

Eminent Historian Sir Martin Gilbert, Author of 10 Books on Middle East History

The Arab Invasion of the State of Israel 15 May 1948

You need to start when the mass migration of jews into that area began. Remember? You even claimed on an earlier post that it was a "baron wasteland", before the jews got there. That means they weren't there before. Which means they moved there. And that is when the problem started, because they displaced the people who were already living there.

You're such a fuckin' liar!

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book and learn that Jews established Israel 3000 years ago and have remained the only nation in Israel for this time.

Arabs are indigenous to arabia, not Israel.

Your lesson for the day

 

[Billo_Really]

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book and learn that Jews established Israel 3000 years ago and have remained the only nation in Israel for this time.

Arabs are indigenous to arabia, not Israel.

Your lesson for the day

Lessons contain substance and address specific issues. That had neither. You're avoiding the issue and we both know why.

 

[Wolverine1984]

At least I know what international law allows a country to legally attack another.

what's all that talk about legality?
Was that US attack on Iraq legal? Or Afghanistan? Was it in accordance with international law?

I am sorry to say but that international law is a joke. No one pays attention to it, and when it's broken nothing gets done about it.

That's a pretty un-American thing to say, since our country is based on the rule of law. Part of what it means to be an American, is respect for the law. That's what made us different. Now, for you to advocate lawlessness, goes against our American heritage. If you're right, that's like saying it was okay for Hitler to invade Poland.

Our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were the most illegal thing a country can do. I'll spell it out for you...

These wars, are wars of choice.
We "chose" to go to war, we did not "have" to go to war.
Wars of choice, are wars of aggression.
And wars of aggression, are crimes against humanity.
And this particular crime, is the highest crime of all, because it contains the collective evil of all the rest.

Well that's exactly what I said.The fact that America went to an illegal war proves that the international law is a joke

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book for you.

Eminent Historian Sir Martin Gilbert, Author of 10 Books on Middle East History

The Arab Invasion of the State of Israel 15 May 1948

You need to start when the mass migration of jews into that area began. Remember? You even claimed on an earlier post that it was a "baron wasteland", before the jews got there. That means they weren't there before. Which means they moved there. And that is when the problem started, because they displaced the people who were already living there.

You're such a fuckin' liar!

How does immigration proves displacement?
The Jews who immigrated to the British mandate bought lands fairly without displacing anyone.Most of the time the lands they bought were uninhabited and overpriced.
Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JStone]

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book and learn that Jews established Israel 3000 years ago and have remained the only nation in Israel for this time.

Arabs are indigenous to arabia, not Israel.

Your lesson for the day

Lessons contain substance and address specific issues. That had neither. You're avoiding the issue and we both know why.

Can you name even one indigenous nation other than the Jewish nation established in Israel during the past 3000 years? No, I didn't think so.

Sucks being you, yes?

 

[Billo_Really]

Well that's exactly what I said.The fact that America went to an illegal war proves that the international law is a joke

It proves that we're the joke. It proves that everything we've been taught about our country is a total myth. It proves our American values is just one big lie.

These wars reflect on us. They're done in our name. Over a million people are dead and over 4.5 million are now refugees, because we didn't care enough to stop our government from doing the exact same thing the nazis did in WWII.

 

[Billo_Really]

Can you name even one indigenous nation other than the Jewish nation established in Israel during the past 3000 years? No, I didn't think so.

Sucks being you, yes?

How can you be indigenous in a "baron wasteland"?

That's an oxy-moron, moron.

 

[JStone]

Well that's exactly what I said.The fact that America went to an illegal war proves that the international law is a joke

It proves that we're the joke. It proves that everything we've been taught about our country is a total myth. It proves our American values is just one big lie.

These wars reflect on us. They're done in our name. Over a million people are dead and over 4.5 million are now refugees, because we didn't care enough to stop our government from doing the exact same thing the nazis did in WWII.

The educational system certainly has failed you. You are incapable of basic spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

 

[Foxfyre]

First, master grade school spelling: http://www.usmessageboard.com/5141405-post489.html

After, have an adult with a functioning brain open a history book and learn that Jews established Israel 3000 years ago and have remained the only nation in Israel for this time.

Arabs are indigenous to arabia, not Israel.

Your lesson for the day

Lessons contain substance and address specific issues. That had neither. You're avoiding the issue and we both know why.

Can you name even one indigenous nation other than the Jewish nation established in Israel during the past 3000 years? No, I didn't think so.

Sucks being you, yes?

Can you name any other group of people who have been as unwelcome and as persecuted in various parts of the world as have the Jews? Can you name any other group of people who were imprisoned en masse, tortured, humiliated, starved, gassed and 6 million of them murdered before the Allied forces rescued those who were left? Can you imagine remaining in a country with the same people who had done that to you?

The Israelis occupy a tiny TINY strip of land that holds thousands of years of history and sacred significance to them. The land is no larger than one of our New Mexico counties. It is the ONE place in all the Earth in which they are finally free to organize their lives as they choose and be free to be who they are without fear that their government will turn on them and persecute them.

And why the rest of the world faults them for that or cannot understand why they want and need that is a mystery to me.

 

[Billo_Really]

How does immigration proves displacement?
The Jews who immigrated to the British mandate bought lands fairly without displacing anyone.Most of the time the lands they bought were uninhabited and overpriced.
Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Land records at the time indicated arabs owned 90% of the land and wound up with 30%. Let's not forget, over 700,000 arabs were driven out due to jewish terrorism.

 

[Billo_Really]

Can you name any other group of people who have been as unwelcome and as persecuted in various parts of the world as have the Jews? Can you name any other group of people who were imprisoned en masse, tortured, humiliated, starved, gassed and 6 million of them murdered before the Allied forces rescued those who were left? Can you imagine remaining in a country with the same people who had done that to you?

The Israelis occupy a tiny TINY strip of land that holds thousands of years of history and sacred significance to them. The land is no larger than one of our New Mexico counties. It is the ONE place in all the Earth in which they are finally free to organize their lives as they choose and be free to be who they are without fear that their government will turn on them and persecute them.

And why the rest of the world faults them for that or cannot understand why they want and need that is a mystery to me.

They got their land. That's not the issue. The issue is, their claim to someone else's land. Why can't you see the tyranny they are inflicting on others? The "occupiers" are not the victims.