Israel attacks civilians

[P F Tinmore]

There are no terrorists firing antitank rockets at Israeli school buses?

They have antitank rockets?

Funny they do not shoot them at tanks.

Why would they shoot at the military when they can shoot at school children instead?

For one it would be against their best interest and would be detrimental to their current strategy.

 

[Wolverine1984]

We're in agreement about the destructive side effects of religion, and I apologize for the license I took with the concept of "original sin." Avnery also writes about the distinction between Israelis and Jews. This raises the current distinction in Israel of citizenship and nationality. Why is it a Jew born anywhere on the planet can move to Israel and instantly attain political rights that are superior to Arabs who have lived continuously in Palestine for generations?

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

"In Israel Citizenship and nationality are two different things.

"Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs or Jews. Nationality (le'um), bestows much greater rights than citizenship, is for Jews alone.

"In 1972 the Supreme Court that non-Jews cannot qualify for nationality rights in the state of Israel because there is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people."

Would Jews immigrating from other countries gain the rights bestowed by nationality, rights denied to native born Arabs or Christians?

Is there no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people?

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAEL- A THEOCRATIC RACIST STATE.htm

I'm sorry,but this is just a blunt lie, and even thought your source 'Wake-up-america' screams objectivity, it must be misinformed ... (And for some reason doesn't load.)

I don't know what your source was trying to say ... What i do know is this:
There is absolutely no differentiation between citizens of Israel under the law.

So to your question, the Jews immigrating from other countries will have the same rights as native born Arabs or Christians or Buddhist or Jews or any other human being who has Israeli citizenship.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."[151] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army[152]).

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll even tell you one better, Arabs rights in Israel is much better that of any Arab living in the neighboring countries.

According to Ishmael Khaldi, an Arab citizen of Israel and the nation's first high ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service, while Israeli society is far from perfect, minorities in Israel fare far better than any other country in the Middle East. He wrote:

I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deal honestly. By any yardstick you choose – educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation – Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East.[196]
​

(from the same source)

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights"

Indeed.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJVWmBcDjU]Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wolverine1984]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights"

Indeed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJVWmBcDjU"]Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter - YouTube[/ame]

Let me get this straight, you claiming Israel mistreating Arabs while they are actually breaking the law ?
What kind of argument is that ? Same thing would have happened if he were Jewish , or Martian for that matter ... You got to have a permit for such things, if you don't have one , well that's a problem for you and you should have thought about it before ...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They have antitank rockets?

Funny they do not shoot them at tanks.

Why would they shoot at the military when they can shoot at school children instead?

For one it would be against their best interest and would be detrimental to their current strategy.

Their current strategy is to kill as many innocent civilians as they can.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights"

Indeed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJVWmBcDjU"]Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter - YouTube[/ame]

Let me get this straight, you claiming Israel mistreating Arabs while they are actually breaking the law ?
What kind of argument is that ? Same thing would have happened if he were Jewish , or Martian for that matter ... You got to have a permit for such things, if you don't have one , well that's a problem for you and you should have thought about it before ...

Thought of it before what. They were there before Israel.

 

[georgephillip]

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

"In Israel Citizenship and nationality are two different things.

"Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs or Jews. Nationality (le'um), bestows much greater rights than citizenship, is for Jews alone.

"In 1972 the Supreme Court that non-Jews cannot qualify for nationality rights in the state of Israel because there is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people."

Would Jews immigrating from other countries gain the rights bestowed by nationality, rights denied to native born Arabs or Christians?

Is there no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people?

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAEL- A THEOCRATIC RACIST STATE.htm

I'm sorry,but this is just a blunt lie, and even thought your source 'Wake-up-america' screams objectivity, it must be misinformed ... (And for some reason doesn't load.)

I don't know what your source was trying to say ... What i do know is this:
There is absolutely no differentiation between citizens of Israel under the law.

So to your question, the Jews immigrating from other countries will have the same rights as native born Arabs or Christians or Buddhist or Jews or any other human being who has Israeli citizenship.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."[151] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army[152]).

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll even tell you one better, Arabs rights in Israel is much better that of any Arab living in the neighboring countries.

According to Ishmael Khaldi, an Arab citizen of Israel and the nation's first high ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service, while Israeli society is far from perfect, minorities in Israel fare far better than any other country in the Middle East. He wrote:

I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deal honestly. By any yardstick you choose – educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation – Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East.[196]
​

(from the same source)

There's little doubt Arab citizens of Israel enjoy democratic rights unimaginable in Bahrain and other US supported Arab dictatorships; however, that bar is pretty low. Defining the Israeli state as a Jewish state does seem to inject a de jure element of apartheid into the equation:

"Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.[153]

"The joint document The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel, asserts: 'Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State.'

"The document explains that by definition the 'Jewish State' concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission."

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry about that link.
It's not opening for me either.
I'll try to find another source.

 

[georgephillip]

We're in agreement about the destructive side effects of religion, and I apologize for the license I took with the concept of "original sin." Avnery also writes about the distinction between Israelis and Jews. This raises the current distinction in Israel of citizenship and nationality. Why is it a Jew born anywhere on the planet can move to Israel and instantly attain political rights that are superior to Arabs who have lived continuously in Palestine for generations?

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

Since the Law or Return applies only to people who are not citizens of Israel, it is fair to say it discriminates among foreigners but it is in no sense undemocratic.

It also discriminates against hundreds of thousands of citizens of Mandate Palestine who have been denied their right of return since 1948.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

Since the Law or Return applies only to people who are not citizens of Israel, it is fair to say it discriminates among foreigners but it is in no sense undemocratic.

It also discriminates against hundreds of thousands of citizens of Mandate Palestine who have been denied their right of return since 1948.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isn't it awful that the losing side loses?
Just think of the poor Germans who lost their homes after WWII.
Just terrible.
I guess the Germans and Arabs shouldn't have started those wars.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

Since the Law or Return applies only to people who are not citizens of Israel, it is fair to say it discriminates among foreigners but it is in no sense undemocratic.

It also discriminates against hundreds of thousands of citizens of Mandate Palestine who have been denied their right of return since 1948.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not at all. Israel had laws on the books right after the War of Independence that allowed those who fled during the war to apply to the government or to the courts to return and claim rights as citizens of Israel and claim any property they may have owned or compensation for it, but they had to apply as individuals, not as a group. Hardly any did either because they were ignorant of their rights under Israeli law or because they preferred to make a political statement rather than claim their rights or because they were afraid that if they did apply to the Israeli government or courts, they would be executed as collaborators for recognizing the jurisdiction of these Israeli institutions. These laws stayed on the books until the mid 1970's, and by not applying as individuals in a timely fashion, they abandoned their rights and property.

 

[georgephillip]

"After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (known to Israelis as the 'War of Independence' and to Palestinians as Al-Nakba, or 'The Catastrophe') and the 1948 Palestinian exodus, many Palestinians who either fled or were expelled from their towns and villages, whether they had had altogether ventured beyond what became Israel (largely into the neighbouring Arab countries of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt) or were internally displaced, tried for many year since then to return to the places they had left.

"The Israeli Government enacted the Prevention of Infiltration Law in order to forbid and impede, what under the law receives the name of 'infiltration', into Israel."

Prevention of Infiltration Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those who stole the land wrote laws designed to prevent Palestinians from returning to claim property their families had legally possessed for generations.

 

[georgephillip]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights"

Indeed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJVWmBcDjU"]Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter - YouTube[/ame]

Let me get this straight, you claiming Israel mistreating Arabs while they are actually breaking the law ?
What kind of argument is that ? Same thing would have happened if he were Jewish , or Martian for that matter ... You got to have a permit for such things, if you don't have one , well that's a problem for you and you should have thought about it before ...

Did you hear the Israeli citizen claim to possess a deed for his land that was issued in 1922?

Apparently some of Israel's citizens are more equal than others.

 

[toomuchtime_]

"After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (known to Israelis as the 'War of Independence' and to Palestinians as Al-Nakba, or 'The Catastrophe') and the 1948 Palestinian exodus, many Palestinians who either fled or were expelled from their towns and villages, whether they had had altogether ventured beyond what became Israel (largely into the neighbouring Arab countries of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt) or were internally displaced, tried for many year since then to return to the places they had left.

"The Israeli Government enacted the Prevention of Infiltration Law in order to forbid and impede, what under the law receives the name of 'infiltration', into Israel."

Prevention of Infiltration Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those who stole the land wrote laws designed to prevent Palestinians from returning to claim property their families had legally possessed for generations.

All countries try to prevent people from crossing their borders without explicit permission. Israel is no different, and after the War of Independence, Israel had better reason than most countries to enforce such laws, however, Arabs who applied to the Israeli courts had their petitions considered on an individual basis just as they would have been if they had claimed a right to enter the US or any European country.

 

[georgephillip]

Since the Law or Return applies only to people who are not citizens of Israel, it is fair to say it discriminates among foreigners but it is in no sense undemocratic.

It also discriminates against hundreds of thousands of citizens of Mandate Palestine who have been denied their right of return since 1948.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isn't it awful that the losing side loses?
Just think of the poor Germans who lost their homes after WWII.
Just terrible.
I guess the Germans and Arabs shouldn't have started those wars.

How many Germans are still living in refugee camps?
Rich white bankers on both sides of the Atlantic started WWII, and Zionists with help from rich white bankers after WWII inflicted a Jewish state upon a population that was two-thirds non-Jewish.
I guess the poor should stop fighting wars on behalf of bankers.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It also discriminates against hundreds of thousands of citizens of Mandate Palestine who have been denied their right of return since 1948.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isn't it awful that the losing side loses?
Just think of the poor Germans who lost their homes after WWII.
Just terrible.
I guess the Germans and Arabs shouldn't have started those wars.

How many Germans are still living in refugee camps?
Rich white bankers on both sides of the Atlantic started WWII, and Zionists with help from rich white bankers after WWII inflicted a Jewish state upon a population that was two-thirds non-Jewish.
I guess the poor should stop fighting wars on behalf of bankers.

None. Because they moved back to Germany.
The Arabs should have moved to an Arab country.
Or they could whine for 60 years instead.

 

[georgephillip]

Mandate Palestine was two-thirds Arab in 1948.
Why do you suppose the UN didn't call for elections?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Indeed.

Israel leaves 200 children in the desert with No food No water and No shelter - YouTube

Let me get this straight, you claiming Israel mistreating Arabs while they are actually breaking the law ?
What kind of argument is that ? Same thing would have happened if he were Jewish , or Martian for that matter ... You got to have a permit for such things, if you don't have one , well that's a problem for you and you should have thought about it before ...

Did you hear the Israeli citizen claim to possess a deed for his land that was issued in 1922?

Apparently some of Israel's citizens are more equal than others.

Nope, all Israelis have the same rights, and very few, Arab or Jewish hold deeds to any land. Nearly all land in Israel is owned by the state or by the Jewish Agency and is administered by the state. The claims that Jewish immigrants "stole" land from the Arabs are entirely bogus.

One of the major obstacles faced by Jewish immigrants who tried to purchase land prior to 1948 was the unique system of property ownership established in much of the country. In 1932, 117,869 dunam of land was held by absentee landowners. In most cases, tenant farmers worked the land, creating a dilemma for land purchasers.34 Even after buying the land from the “real” owner, the tenant farmers would generally remain in place. In 1927, the British passed a law preventing the transfer of land without first securing new land for the tenant farmer or making a cash settlement.35Yet this had already been the policy of the Jewish Agency, which had explicitly sought to avoid controversy in its land purchases. The Shaw Commission reported:

We think that the Jewish Companies are not open to any criticism in respect of these transactions. In paying compensation, as they undoubtedly did, to many of the cultivators of land which they purchased in the Plain of Esdraelon [Jezreel Valley] those companies were making a payment which at the time of the transactions the law of Palestine did not require. Moreover, they were acting with the knowledge of the Government.36
Despite this careful attention to the tenant farmers’ reimbursement, Arab fellaheen often claimed that Jews had given them little or no compensation. In response, the British launched investigations into over 3000 claims, of which about 2500 were ultimately rejected.37For the 600 or so claims that were accepted, the Development Department was required to provide 60 dunam of irrigable land or a cash settlement that would presumably allow the farmer to move to a city.38 The immigration of Jews to Palestine was thus done both legally and ethically.

Harvard Israel Review (HIR)

 

[georgephillip]

You are talking about the Law of return.
First of all this law is undemocratic and favors the Jews this is true and a cause for debate within Israel,however it was essential to Israels survival.

Israel is a Jewish state ,meaning a country for the Jewish people and the reason behind this law is to encourage Jews to immigrate to Israel.
(Arabs who were at the end of 1949 inside the green line granted automatic citizenship.)
On a side note: Jews who immigrated from other places in the world do not get superior rights to the Arabs or anyone else who is a citizen of Israel.

"In Israel Citizenship and nationality are two different things.

"Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs or Jews. Nationality (le'um), bestows much greater rights than citizenship, is for Jews alone.

"In 1972 the Supreme Court that non-Jews cannot qualify for nationality rights in the state of Israel because there is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people."

Would Jews immigrating from other countries gain the rights bestowed by nationality, rights denied to native born Arabs or Christians?

Is there no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people?

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAEL-%20A%20THEOCRATIC%20RACIST%20STATE.htm

Nonsense, all Israeli citizens have the same rights under the law.

How many classes of citizenship currently exist in Israel?

"Class 'A' citizenship : Jews.

Privileged access to the material resources of the State and the social as well as the welfare services of the State. Are able to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel, controlled by the Land Agency. Note that no-one can actually purchase the Agency land and that it is leased to Jews only.

"Class 'B' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights. Are denied the right to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel controlled by the Land Agency. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. Are generally not permitted to serve in the military which means they are automatically denied the many social and welfare services available to those who complete compulsory (for Jews) military service.

Class 'C' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights, but classified as 'absentees'. Comprises some 200,000 persons. Are denied the right to utilize property in 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. They have also been denied all rights to their own property (lands, houses, corporations, shares, bank accounts, bank safes, etc.) that they owned until confiscated by the Jewish state. This theft was made 'legal' by the Absentees Property Law of 1950.

Class 'D' citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

"Taxpayers, but without voting rights. Comprises some 3,000,000 persons. Are also denied the right to utilize or buy property anywhere in pre-1967 Israel. Have no access to social and welfare services. Many (mostly those who once lived in pre-1967 Israel) have had all their property confiscated by the Jewish state without compensation and have been forced to live in ghettos spread throughout two areas that today resemble concentration camps.

Information From 'Israel: An Apartheid State' (Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987) Uri Davis

Israeli Apartheid.

 

[Outback]

Any civilians attacking Israel?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Mandate Palestine was two-thirds Arab in 1948.
Why do you suppose the UN didn't call for elections?

But better than 80% of these Arabs had arrived in what would become Israel and the disputed territories after the British had arrived during a period when Jewish immigration was not allowed.

The British capitulated to Arab terrorists in the 1930's by blocking Jewish immigration but reported to the League of Nations that they were unable to stop Arab immigration from the surrounding countries. In effect, in order to appease Arab terrorists the British sent hundreds of thousands of Jews to nazi death camps. According to the first British report to the League of Nations, there were about 76,000 Jews and 78,000 Arabs living west of the Jordan River, but as a result of discriminatory British policies by 1948, there were about 1,200,000 Arabs and 600,000 Jews.

The UN partition proposal was eminently fair to these Arab immigrants. The proposed Arab state would have been made up of 800,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews, but the proposed Jewish state would have been made up of 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs and would quickly have become a binational state. The source of all the trouble and all the suffering in the area is Arab intolerance of Jews and nothing more.