Israel and US discuss defunding of UNRWA

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians called for BDS to end the occupation.

Who else occupies Palestine besides Israel?

The ARABS, who come from Arabia and have been colonizing, occupying the region of Palestine, Land of Israel for 1400 years now.

The Arab Palestinians, who call themselves by this name ONLY since 1964, are part of the Arab colonization enterprise.

Israel has a right to be in Palestine, ON its ancient land of Israel.

ISRAEL occupies ISRAEL.

You are full of crap, as usual.

The Palestinians legally became Palestinians after WWI.

How does one LEGALLY become a Palestinian?

Did they stop being Arabs?

Did they stop being the Arab colonizers, non indigenous people of the Land of Israel?

Hint (no)

What are you babbling about? The Palestinians became Palestinians according to international and domestic law.

The Jews, and Arabs and all others living in the Mandate for Palestine
became known as Palestinians .

It was not the creation of a people.

You forget: JEWS ARE PALESTINIANS

and

PALESTINE IS ISRAEL

And go back to discussing the topic of this thread, defunding UNWRA.

UNWRA Is a temporary agency that will fold when the UNCCP accomplishes its mandate.

 

[Humanity]

I do agree that BOTH have collective rights... However, YOUR "collective rights" come with strings attached!

They being that you consider one "indigenous" and one "long history"!

Makes no practical difference because rights are identical. Who is playing at semantics?

Well, you are Shusha...

So, call Palestinians "indigenous" as well...

Can the English, Irish, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Spaniards who colonized the Americas, and Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, in the past 500 years be called Indigenous of those lands?

How, then, can Arabs who started colonizing outside of the Arabian Peninsula, be called indigenous of any other part of Asia Minor or Africa?

How can Arabs, who are colonizers in the Land of Israel, be called indigenous of that land, simply because as a region it is called Palestine, and the Arabs chose in 1964 to adopt that identity?

The word Indigenous does have a specific meaning.
In the case of Jews and Arabs in the region of Palestine, Arabs want to be designated as indigenous of two different places.

How can that happen?

What other people can be indigenous of two different places at the same time?

With your opening argument you leave yourself wide open to those who believe that Palestine was invaded by Europeans!

I find it incredibly hard to believe that the 'people' of Palestine, including Jews, are so different from each other. Nope, don't bother going down the DNA argument....

The whole region, from Turkey though to, well, let's draw the line at Egypt, was a melting pot of cultures, beliefs, peoples for millennia....

 

[Sixties Fan]

The ARABS, who come from Arabia and have been colonizing, occupying the region of Palestine, Land of Israel for 1400 years now.

The Arab Palestinians, who call themselves by this name ONLY since 1964, are part of the Arab colonization enterprise.

Israel has a right to be in Palestine, ON its ancient land of Israel.

ISRAEL occupies ISRAEL.

You are full of crap, as usual.

The Palestinians legally became Palestinians after WWI.

How does one LEGALLY become a Palestinian?

Did they stop being Arabs?

Did they stop being the Arab colonizers, non indigenous people of the Land of Israel?

Hint (no)

What are you babbling about? The Palestinians became Palestinians according to international and domestic law.

The Jews, and Arabs and all others living in the Mandate for Palestine
became known as Palestinians .

It was not the creation of a people.

You forget: JEWS ARE PALESTINIANS

and

PALESTINE IS ISRAEL

And go back to discussing the topic of this thread, defunding UNWRA.

UNWRA Is a temporary agency that will fold when the UNCCP accomplishes its mandate.

UNCCP - the United Nations Archives Search Engine


There is still a Mandate left, after 1948? Really?
That UNCCP? An Archive search engine?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Ahhhhh. This UNCCP

The provision of international protection for Palestinian refugees by the UNCCP and the framework set down by the international community in Resolution 194 (III) was both consistent with the protection function later accorded to the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)(4), the international agency responsible for all other refugees, and remarkably forward-looking in regards to durable solutions(5). During its early years of operation, the UNCCP attempted to intervene with state parties to promote and protect the internationally-recognized rights of the refugees; promote measures to improve the situation of refugees; preserve and promote the restitution of refugee properties, and; promote durable solutions for refugees, including repatriation, resettlement, restitution, and compensation based on the unconditional principle of refugee choice.

Since the early 1950s, however, the UNCCP has not provided Palestinian refugees with the basic international protection accorded to all other refugees. Owing largely to the inability of the Commission to reconcile the internal contradiction of its mandate, between conciliation of all outstanding issues and implementation of repatriation and compensation, refugee protection has been limited to those issues of least disagreement between the parties, namely documentation and evaluation of refugee properties for payment of compensation. This situation has had grave consequences for Palestinian refugees.(6)

The experience of the UNCCP is informative in relation to the provision of protection and implementation of a durable solution for Palestinian refugees. Analysis of the UNCCP clearly demonstrates how refugee rights may be compromised in the absence of an international protection body to promote the rights and choices of refugees at the negotiating table. The critical importance of refugee protection and the failure of the UNCCP to provide such protection raise urgent questions about the future of the Commission. Should the UNCCP be “revived”, reformed, or should the role of protection be accorded to another agency like the UNHCR? At a broader level, the experience of the UNCCP poses a serious question to the international community about why Palestinian refugees, the largest and longest running refugee case in the world, have been deprived of an entire body of basic rights for more than fifty years.

https://www.badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/bulletins-and-briefs/Brief-No.5.pdf

[The UNCCP another abject failure in protecting a people from their leaders' dream of destroying the sovereign country of Israel. And so, they remain "refugees" for all eternity, because that is how long destroying Israel will take. Unless there is a true revolution of the people against their Arab leaders which will force an end to this most cruel practice ]

 

[Hollie]

The ARABS, who come from Arabia and have been colonizing, occupying the region of Palestine, Land of Israel for 1400 years now.

The Arab Palestinians, who call themselves by this name ONLY since 1964, are part of the Arab colonization enterprise.

Israel has a right to be in Palestine, ON its ancient land of Israel.

ISRAEL occupies ISRAEL.

You are full of crap, as usual.

The Palestinians legally became Palestinians after WWI.

How does one LEGALLY become a Palestinian?

Did they stop being Arabs?

Did they stop being the Arab colonizers, non indigenous people of the Land of Israel?

Hint (no)

What are you babbling about? The Palestinians became Palestinians according to international and domestic law.

The Jews, and Arabs and all others living in the Mandate for Palestine
became known as Palestinians .

It was not the creation of a people.

You forget: JEWS ARE PALESTINIANS

and

PALESTINE IS ISRAEL

And go back to discussing the topic of this thread, defunding UNWRA.

UNWRA Is a temporary agency that will fold when the UNCCP accomplishes its mandate.

Ummm, UNRWA was intended to be a temporary agency. But, many decades later it has morphed into nothing more than a bloated and directionless welfare fraud entitlement that enables Islamic terrorism.

I can only hope for a time, in the not too distant future, when citizens of The Great Satan™ walk by that monstrosity on the East River and say out loud to themselves "I remember people once worked in that building and what they did there". And after recalling a few dozen or so UN lunacies, conclude with, "Wow, we used to pay them to committ those lunacies!"

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ahhhhh. This UNCCP

The provision of international protection for Palestinian refugees by the UNCCP and the framework set down by the international community in Resolution 194 (III) was both consistent with the protection function later accorded to the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)(4), the international agency responsible for all other refugees, and remarkably forward-looking in regards to durable solutions(5). During its early years of operation, the UNCCP attempted to intervene with state parties to promote and protect the internationally-recognized rights of the refugees; promote measures to improve the situation of refugees; preserve and promote the restitution of refugee properties, and; promote durable solutions for refugees, including repatriation, resettlement, restitution, and compensation based on the unconditional principle of refugee choice.

Since the early 1950s, however, the UNCCP has not provided Palestinian refugees with the basic international protection accorded to all other refugees. Owing largely to the inability of the Commission to reconcile the internal contradiction of its mandate, between conciliation of all outstanding issues and implementation of repatriation and compensation, refugee protection has been limited to those issues of least disagreement between the parties, namely documentation and evaluation of refugee properties for payment of compensation. This situation has had grave consequences for Palestinian refugees.(6)

The experience of the UNCCP is informative in relation to the provision of protection and implementation of a durable solution for Palestinian refugees. Analysis of the UNCCP clearly demonstrates how refugee rights may be compromised in the absence of an international protection body to promote the rights and choices of refugees at the negotiating table. The critical importance of refugee protection and the failure of the UNCCP to provide such protection raise urgent questions about the future of the Commission. Should the UNCCP be “revived”, reformed, or should the role of protection be accorded to another agency like the UNHCR? At a broader level, the experience of the UNCCP poses a serious question to the international community about why Palestinian refugees, the largest and longest running refugee case in the world, have been deprived of an entire body of basic rights for more than fifty years.

https://www.badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/bulletins-and-briefs/Brief-No.5.pdf

[The UNCCP another abject failure in protecting a people from their leaders' dream of destroying the sovereign country of Israel. And so, they remain "refugees" for all eternity, because that is how long destroying Israel will take. Unless there is a true revolution of the people against their Arab leaders which will force an end to this most cruel practice ]

Great post, except for that Israeli bullshit you put at the end.

Just another example of the UN not having the balls to implement their own stuff.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians called for BDS to end the occupation.

Who else occupies Palestine besides Israel?

People who support BDS while purchasing products with MUCH worse human rights abuses are NOT, by definition, boycotting Israel because of so-called human rights abuses. They are applying a special standard only to Israel.

Why are there not widespread, global boycotts for other occupations? Morocco? Indonesia? Turkey? China? etc.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Ahhhhh. This UNCCP

The provision of international protection for Palestinian refugees by the UNCCP and the framework set down by the international community in Resolution 194 (III) was both consistent with the protection function later accorded to the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)(4), the international agency responsible for all other refugees, and remarkably forward-looking in regards to durable solutions(5). During its early years of operation, the UNCCP attempted to intervene with state parties to promote and protect the internationally-recognized rights of the refugees; promote measures to improve the situation of refugees; preserve and promote the restitution of refugee properties, and; promote durable solutions for refugees, including repatriation, resettlement, restitution, and compensation based on the unconditional principle of refugee choice.

Since the early 1950s, however, the UNCCP has not provided Palestinian refugees with the basic international protection accorded to all other refugees. Owing largely to the inability of the Commission to reconcile the internal contradiction of its mandate, between conciliation of all outstanding issues and implementation of repatriation and compensation, refugee protection has been limited to those issues of least disagreement between the parties, namely documentation and evaluation of refugee properties for payment of compensation. This situation has had grave consequences for Palestinian refugees.(6)

The experience of the UNCCP is informative in relation to the provision of protection and implementation of a durable solution for Palestinian refugees. Analysis of the UNCCP clearly demonstrates how refugee rights may be compromised in the absence of an international protection body to promote the rights and choices of refugees at the negotiating table. The critical importance of refugee protection and the failure of the UNCCP to provide such protection raise urgent questions about the future of the Commission. Should the UNCCP be “revived”, reformed, or should the role of protection be accorded to another agency like the UNHCR? At a broader level, the experience of the UNCCP poses a serious question to the international community about why Palestinian refugees, the largest and longest running refugee case in the world, have been deprived of an entire body of basic rights for more than fifty years.

https://www.badil.org/phocadownload/Badil_docs/bulletins-and-briefs/Brief-No.5.pdf

[The UNCCP another abject failure in protecting a people from their leaders' dream of destroying the sovereign country of Israel. And so, they remain "refugees" for all eternity, because that is how long destroying Israel will take. Unless there is a true revolution of the people against their Arab leaders which will force an end to this most cruel practice ]

Great post, except for that Israeli bullshit you put at the end.

Just another example of the UN not having the balls to implement their own stuff.

The bullshit exists in your head.

The UN has no business demanding that UNWRA continue until Israel is destroyed. It is only that way, now, because all the Muslim and Christian countries which hate Jews and Israel got to become the majority there.

It is called RACISM !!!!

 

[Shusha]

So, call Palestinians "indigenous" as well...

And THAT is you playing semantics. You want me to label Arab Palestinians indigenous, even though they do NOT meet the definition of that label, in order to create some sort of semantic equality with the Jewish people, who DO meet that definition, EVEN THOUGH I have assigned the exact same rights to both peoples.

In other words, you want me to change the label I use for people, for no practical purpose other than for you to have your need to semantics satisfied.



I don't even know why you and I are arguing this. We agree, don't we, that insisting on returning five million Arabs to Israel is going to destroy Israel and the self-determination of the Jewish State? We agree, don't we, that Arab Palestinians should not get special treatment afforded no other refugees? We agree, don't we, that UNRWA is a colossal failure which now supports the victimization and dependency of the refugees rather than permitting them to rebuild their lives with dignity?

 

[Shusha]

....I'll also point out that the idea of refugee status being a hereditary condition is unprecedented in history and in international law.

So you want to defund UNWRA, does that mean you are going to defund the UNHCR as well? They also state refugee status is hereditory.

Paragraph 184 of the UNHCR Handbook states: "If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition, [for refugee status] his dependants are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity."...Handbook on Procedures and Criteria for Determining Refugee Status under the 1951 Convention and the 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees

UNHCR Procedural Standards for Refugee Status Determination states:
5.1.1 "individuals who obtain derivative refugee status enjoy the same rights and entitlements as other recognised refugees and should retain this status notwithstanding the subsequent dissolution of the family through separation, divorce, death, or the fact that the child reaches the age of majority.""
5.1.2 "the categories of persons who should be considered to be eligible for derivative status under the right to family unity include:" "all unmarried children of the Principal Applicant who are under 18 years."...http://www.unhcr.org/4317223c9.pdf

This applies to all refugees, not just Palestinians ethnically cleansed by the Zionist colonial project, and is based on current international Law.

Yes. Understood. The dependent children of actual refugees, for the purpose of family unity, are also considered refugees.

This is VERY different from the practical working definition of UNWRA which is the descendants (in perpetuity) of the original Palestinian refugees -- regardless of their individual status as actual refugees.

By "actual refugee", I mean a refugee who has not been voluntarily repatriated, not been integrated into a local community and not been resettled in a third country. The number of registered UNWRA "refugees" far exceeds the number of "actual" refugees because of the expanded definition.

 

[Shusha]

I will also add that the artificial maintenance of "actual" refugees by refusing to integrate them or resettle them is an abhorrent violation of human rights.

 

[Roudy]

Well I'm glad that we all agree that the UNRWA should not be getting a single dime of American tax payer money.

 

[P F Tinmore]

....I'll also point out that the idea of refugee status being a hereditary condition is unprecedented in history and in international law.

So you want to defund UNWRA, does that mean you are going to defund the UNHCR as well? They also state refugee status is hereditory.

Paragraph 184 of the UNHCR Handbook states: "If the head of a family meets the criteria of the definition, [for refugee status] his dependants are normally granted refugee status according to the principle of family unity."...Handbook on Procedures and Criteria for Determining Refugee Status under the 1951 Convention and the 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees

UNHCR Procedural Standards for Refugee Status Determination states:
5.1.1 "individuals who obtain derivative refugee status enjoy the same rights and entitlements as other recognised refugees and should retain this status notwithstanding the subsequent dissolution of the family through separation, divorce, death, or the fact that the child reaches the age of majority.""
5.1.2 "the categories of persons who should be considered to be eligible for derivative status under the right to family unity include:" "all unmarried children of the Principal Applicant who are under 18 years."...http://www.unhcr.org/4317223c9.pdf

This applies to all refugees, not just Palestinians ethnically cleansed by the Zionist colonial project, and is based on current international Law.

Yes. Understood. The dependent children of actual refugees, for the purpose of family unity, are also considered refugees.

This is VERY different from the practical working definition of UNWRA which is the descendants (in perpetuity) of the original Palestinian refugees -- regardless of their individual status as actual refugees.

By "actual refugee", I mean a refugee who has not been voluntarily repatriated, not been integrated into a local community and not been resettled in a third country. The number of registered UNWRA "refugees" far exceeds the number of "actual" refugees because of the expanded definition.

Links?

 

[Shusha]

Straight from the UNWRA.org website:

WHO IS A PALESTINE REFUGEE?
The operational definition of a Palestine refugee is any person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948 and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict."

Palestine refugees are persons who fulfil the above definition and descendants of fathers fulfilling the definition.


UNWRA also registers children of Palestinian mothers as descendants and therefore refugees EVEN IF the father of the children is a non-refugee.

UNWRA also has no cessation clause. No clause which describes what conditions bring refugee status to a close, which is found in the mandate for the UNHCR. Which means there is really no way to stop being a refugee, if you are Palestinian and registered. It goes on in perpetuity.

 

[Shusha]

And while we are at it, let's look at a couple of other ways that the mandate for UNWRA differs from the mandate for the UNHCR.

Internally displaced peoples are not refugees, according to UNHCR. One only becomes a refugee once one crosses an international border. If all things were equal -- every single Arab Palestinian still residing in "Palestine" is not a refugee and should be under the jurisdiction of their respective government.

All refugees who are able to avail or obtain another nationality, cease to be refugees. Thus, for example, all the "refugees" residing in Jordan, with Jordanian citizenship are no longer refugees.

Which leaves, out of a total population of "7 million Palestinian refugees", of which, 5 million are registered, less than a million who are actually "refugees" -- mostly in Syria and Lebanon. And of those, even UNWRA admits to the existence of only about half of those, the other half having received citizenship in the local area or having moved away to Europe.

So, if you want to talk about the end UNWRA and its defunding -- there are only maybe half a million to worry about and they can be repatriated to "Palestine" or Gaza in order to end their refugee status and satisfy the requirements for international law, you know, as it applies to all other peoples and not granting special law to Arab "Palestinians" alone.

Why are we repatriating these people and ending their life in camps again? Why are we denying their right to rebuilding and dignity in their home country?

 

[Shusha]

Oh, and while we are discussing this, remember that the UNRWA definition does not exclude Jewish refugees -- so you know all that complaining that Team Palestine was doing about East Jerusalem and "changing the demographics there? Yeah, your arguments about that aren't going to fly if you support this whole UNRWA thing.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I will also add that the artificial maintenance of "actual" refugees by refusing to integrate them or resettle them is an abhorrent violation of human rights.

No country has the legal obligation to accept the nationals of another state.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Oh, and while we are discussing this, remember that the UNRWA definition does not exclude Jewish refugees -- so you know all that complaining that Team Palestine was doing about East Jerusalem and "changing the demographics there? Yeah, your arguments about that aren't going to fly if you support this whole UNRWA thing.

The UNWRA does not define who is a refugee. It merely defines who is eligible for aid.

 

[Shusha]

The UNWRA does not define who is a refugee. It merely defines who is eligible for aid.

Perfect. Even easier to defund UNWRA then. All those who are not actually refugees no longer get aid. Those few who are can move over to the regular system.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The UNWRA does not define who is a refugee. It merely defines who is eligible for aid.

Perfect. Even easier to defund UNWRA then. All those who are not actually refugees no longer get aid. Those few who are can move over to the regular system.

The UNCCP already has the mandate for a durable solution.

They flopped. What makes you believe that another agency would do any better?