Islamists call Cairo protest march as Egypt death toll mounts

[Bloodrock44]

Government sources say 300 people have been killed in Egyptian violence. Muslim Brotherhood says 2000 have been killed. Muslims killing Muslims but they take time out to target Christian churches.

Egypt seethes under curfew after hundreds killed

 

[waltky]

All hell breakin' loose in Egypt...

DEATH TOLL FROM EGYPT VIOLENCE RISES TO 525
Aug 15,`13 -- Egyptian authorities on Thursday significantly raised the death toll from clashes the previous day between police and supporters of the ousted Islamist president, saying more than 500 people died and laying bare the extent of the violence that swept much of the country and prompted the government to declare a nationwide state of emergency and a nighttime curfew.

The death toll, which stood at 525, according to the latest Health Ministry figures, makes Wednesday by far the deadliest day since the 2011 popular uprising that toppled longtime ruler and autocrat Hosni Mubarak - a grim milestone that does not bode well for the future of a nation roiled in turmoil and divisions for the past 2 1/2 years. Health Ministry spokesman Khaled el-Khateeb put the number of the injured on Wednesday at 3,717. The Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist group from which ousted President Mohammed Morsi hails, put the death toll at a staggering 2,600 and the injured at around 10,000 - figures that are extremely high in light of footage by regional and local TV networks, as well as The Associated Press.

In a fresh escalation, Morsi supporters on Thursday tried to storm the building housing the local government in Giza, Cairo's twin city on the west bank of the Nile River. Police repelled the attack, arresting several protesters, according to state television. The building on the famed Pyramids Road, was evacuated. Near the site of one of the smashed encampments of Morsi's supporters in the eastern Nasr City district, an Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw dozens of blood soaked bodies stored inside a mosque. The bodies were wrapped in sheets and still unclaimed by families. Relatives at the scene were uncovering the faces in an attempt to identify their loved ones. Many complained that authorities were preventing them from obtaining permits to bury their dead.

El-Khateeb said 202 of the 525 were killed in the Nasr City protest camp, but it was not immediately clear whether the bodies at the mosque were included in that figure. Another Health Ministry spokesman, Mohammed Fathallah, said he had no knowledge of the bodies at the el-Iman mosque. Victims' names were scribbled on white sheets covering their bodies, some of which were charred. Posters of Morsi were scattered on the floor. "They accuse us of setting fire to ourselves. Then, they accuse us of torturing people and dumping their bodies. Now, they kill us and then blame us," screamed a woman in a head-to-toe black niqab.

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EGYPT'S CONFLICT ENTERS NEW PHASE AFTER ASSAULTS
Aug 15,`13 -- Egypt faced new uncertainty Thursday, the day after security forces drove out Mohammed Morsi's supporters from two sprawling encampments where they had been camped out for six weeks demanding the Islamist president's reinstatement. The move, which left hundreds of protesters dead and saw the arrest of several leaders of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood, has left the fundamentalist movement dangerously isolated.

It also prompted Vice President Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate and pro-reform leader in the interim government, to resign in protest over the violent crackdown as the military-backed leadership imposed a monthlong state of emergency and nighttime curfew.

WHY NOW?

The interim administration that took over after Morsi was toppled on July 3 has been warning for days that it planned to crackdown on the tent cities, which clogged intersections on opposite sides of the Egyptian capital. The government accused the protesters of frightening residents in the neighborhoods, sparking violence and disrupting traffic. Military chief Gen. Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi, who ousted Morsi, called for mass rallies last month to show support for action against the protesters. Millions turned up on July 26 to declare their support. The government later said diplomatic efforts had failed and the decision to clear the sit-ins was "irreversible." Morsi's supporters fortified their positions and even more people flooded the camps after plans for a crackdown on Monday morning were leaked to the media. Police announced they were postponing the decision but did not give a new date.

WHAT LED TO THIS?

Morsi was Egypt's first democratically elected leader after winning the first post-Hosni Mubarak presidential election with just under 52 percent of the vote. His rise to the helm of power was a sharp reversal for the Muslim Brotherhood, repressed for decades under Mubarak's rule, and it was part of a general rise to power of Islamists following the Arab Spring wave of revolutions that led to the ouster of Mubarak and autocratic leaders in Tunisia and Libya.

But Morsi faced a backlash as liberal and secular activists accused him and the Brotherhood of trying to monopolize power and failing to implement much-needed social and economic reforms. Morsi and his backers argued they were doomed to fail because of constant protests and efforts to undermine his government. His government also drew criticism over a series of charges and complaints against activists, journalists and TV personalities, including well-known satirist Bassem Youssef, for insulting Morsi and even sometimes for insulting Islam. An activist group called Tamarod, or Rebel in Arabic, drew millions to the streets to call for Morsi's ouster on June 30, the anniversary of his inauguration. The powerful military responded by taking Morsi into custody on July 3 and forming an interim civilian leadership.

WHAT ARE THE MAIN STICKING POINTS BLOCKING NEGOTIATIONS?

Related:

OBAMA TO ADDRESS SITUATION IN EGYPT THURSDAY
Aug 15,`13 -- President Barack Obama will make his first statement on the rapidly deteriorating situation in Egypt Thursday morning, interrupting his weeklong vacation to address the spiraling violence that has left more than 500 people dead.

Administration officials, including Secretary of State John Kerry, have condemned the clashes between Egypt's military-backed interim government and supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi. But the U.S. has thus far avoided any shifts in its policy toward Egypt, with officials continuing to refrain from calling Morsi's ouster a coup. Taking that step would require the U.S. to cut off $1.3 billion in annual military aid to Egypt. However, officials are considering scrapping joint U.S.-Egypt military exercises scheduled for next month. The Bright Star exercise has been a centerpiece of the two countries' military relations for decades.

More than 500 people have died in Egypt since Wednesday in clashes between the military-backed interim government and Morsi's supporters. The violence prompted the government to declare a nationwide state of emergency and a nighttime curfew. Egyptian Vice President Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate and pro-reform leader in the interim government, also resigned Wednesday in protest over the assaults as the military-backed leadership imposed a monthlong state of emergency and nighttime curfew.

With Obama on vacation, Kerry handled the administration's initial response Wednesday, declaring the violence "deplorable." "It's a serious blow to reconciliation and the Egyptian people's hopes for a transition toward democracy and inclusion," he told reporters during a surprise appearance at the White House. It's unclear whether canceling the Bright Star military exercise or taking other similar punitive actions would push Egypt's interim government to end its crackdown on Morsi supporters. Bright Star usually is held every other year, but the 2011 maneuvers were canceled following the revolution that ousted President Hosni Mubarak in January. This year's exercise is tentatively planned to begin in mid-September.

News from The Associated Press

 

[Circe]

As of 9 AM Eastern Time the BBC has good close coverage of the riots now starting at the Ramses Park in Cairo. A large number of demonstrators earlier made a human wall on the outline of the park, holding hands. Rather beautiful.

Now, however, a police station nearby has been attacked and firebombed and a lot of rioting is going on. BBC had to pull back because of bullets flying overhead.

English and German tour companies have cancelled all tours to Egypt for the summer, responding to an urgent warning by the German government against travel to Egypt.

 

[Circe]

Apparently the demonstrations today are mixed, the civilian supporters of the military and the Morsi supporters mixing it up in the park and in the residential areas. Reports of gunfire in both Cairo and Alexandria now, and several deaths in both cities.

The potential for civil war in Egypt is obvious. And the potential for this fight between Islamists and secularists spreading worldwide: already today large demonstrations are forming in support of the Egyptian Islamists in Yemen and Indonesia.

Western political commentators have started openly wondering if Egypt will descend into civil war on the scale of Syria.

The whole point of all this is whether Islamists can bring fundamentalist, Sharia rule to Egypt and other countries: that is what Morsi tried to do and why the army staged a coup.

I think the US and Europe will cry crocodile tears as they are doing now but will do nothing real against the coup and the killings of Islamist rioters. It is definitely not in our interests for Egypt to dissolve into civil war like Syria! Nor is it in Western interests for primitive Islamist fundamentalists to take over in all Muslim lands.

 

[editec]

Apparently the demonstrations today are mixed, the civilian supporters of the military and the Morsi supporters mixing it up in the park and in the residential areas. Reports of gunfire in both Cairo and Alexandria now, and several deaths in both cities.

The potential for civil war in Egypt is obvious. And the potential for this fight between Islamists and secularists spreading worldwide: already today large demonstrations are forming in support of the Egyptian Islamists in Yemen and Indonesia.

Western political commentators have started openly wondering if Egypt will descend into civil war on the scale of Syria.

The whole point of all this is whether Islamists can bring fundamentalist, Sharia rule to Egypt and other countries: that is what Morsi tried to do and why the army staged a coup.

I think the US and Europe will cry crocodile tears as they are doing now but will do nothing real against the coup and the killings of Islamist rioters. It is definitely not in our interests for Egypt to dissolve into civil war like Syria! Nor is it in Western interests for primitive Islamist fundamentalists to take over in all Muslim lands.

Yup!

The USA, despite all its military power, can do nothing about the fact that there is a battle for the heart and soil of Egypt.

Secularists V BELIEVERS.

We are having a rather similar battle in the USA, no?

Much of the world seems to find itself facing this civil strife between BELIEVERS and SECULARISTS.

 

[Circe]

Remember the green park square shown above? It's now covered with tear gas and rioters.

1323 (9:23 AM Eastern): Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor reports: I'm now about half a mile from Ramses Square. A lot of casualties are being ferried out from the square on bikes and scooters. I've seen several people who have been shot through the head.

Could be as bad a day today in Egypt as Wednesday was. BBC had to withdraw from Ramses Square because of active gunfire.

The ethics of this seem to me to turn on the right of the state to maintain law and order: there is no question but that the rioters are violent. Is that supposed to be............okay? I don't think so.

 

[Lipush]

Egypt today:

 

[Sunni Man]

Remember the green park square shown above? It's now covered with tear gas and rioters.

1323 (9:23 AM Eastern): Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor reports: I'm now about half a mile from Ramses Square. A lot of casualties are being ferried out from the square on bikes and scooters. I've seen several people who have been shot through the head.

Could be as bad a day today in Egypt as Wednesday was. BBC had to withdraw from Ramses Square because of active gunfire.

The ethics of this seem to me to turn on the right of the state to maintain law and order: there is no question but that the rioters are violent. Is that supposed to be............okay? I don't think so.

Of course they are going to riot when their democratically elected government was ousted in a military coup.

Wouldn't we Americans do the same if it happened in our country?? ..

 

[irosie91]

for those folks who seem to be pointing a finger at
the USA for not -----using USA force to stop the
carnage.......try to keep in mind----that was the
intention in-----Afghanistan, and Iraq. In fact
the USA could not even accomplish that which
seemed so simple at the time-----alleviate starvation
in Somalia ---by simply dropping food on the
population.------the population has been brain washed
since birth----burning hatred of "kaffirin"

I was a big supporter of food aid to somalia ---
that fact makes me feel almost guilty


for discussion How would muslims world wide
react to USA attampts to restore order in Egypt

 

[irosie91]

Remember the green park square shown above? It's now covered with tear gas and rioters.

1323 (9:23 AM Eastern): Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor reports: I'm now about half a mile from Ramses Square. A lot of casualties are being ferried out from the square on bikes and scooters. I've seen several people who have been shot through the head.

Could be as bad a day today in Egypt as Wednesday was. BBC had to withdraw from Ramses Square because of active gunfire.

The ethics of this seem to me to turn on the right of the state to maintain law and order: there is no question but that the rioters are violent. Is that supposed to be............okay? I don't think so.

Of course they are going to riot when their democratically elected government was ousted in a military coup.

Wouldn't we Americans do the same if it happened in our country?? ..

The action in Egypt which put power in the hands of "military leaders"-----
was not a bloody one------... It was not a bloody civil war-----more like
a power struggle between those at the top. The current civil war does
have "OUTSIDE" provocation and support-----but not from the USA or
the "westerners" or "the zionists"------it is galvanized by islamicists
world wide-------just as was the depraved TALIBAN PIG PROGRAM----
and just as is the depraved HEZBOLLAH DOG PROGRAM----in fact there
are 'outsiders' even in Syria for the filth of a shariah government.

this kind of filth does not happen in the USA-------never did----there
were tiny little touches of depravity during the revolutionary war and
the civil war but nothing to match the gross depravity of the
Arab spring and the cosmic cesspool of arabism and islamicism

 

[Circe]

Remember the green park square shown above? It's now covered with tear gas and rioters.

1323 (9:23 AM Eastern): Jeremy Bowen BBC Middle East editor reports: I'm now about half a mile from Ramses Square. A lot of casualties are being ferried out from the square on bikes and scooters. I've seen several people who have been shot through the head.

Could be as bad a day today in Egypt as Wednesday was. BBC had to withdraw from Ramses Square because of active gunfire.

The ethics of this seem to me to turn on the right of the state to maintain law and order: there is no question but that the rioters are violent. Is that supposed to be............okay? I don't think so.

Of course they are going to riot when their democratically elected government was ousted in a military coup.

Wouldn't we Americans do the same if it happened in our country?? ..

Some might.....but a lot would support the agents of law and order, as the majority of Egyptians are doing.

The basic function of government IS to maintain law and order. Morsi, of course, was illegally trying to engineer a Sharia fundamentalist takeover and turn Egypt into a theocracy. The army moved against Morsi's abnegation of law and order, and now they are moving against all the zombie-like rioters, who are violently burning and wrecking.

Works for me. I'm no fan of rioters running through the streets destroying everything in their path. Is anybody? All those in favor of the swarming zombies, speak up.

 

[Circe]

I was a big supporter of food aid to somalia ---
that fact makes me feel almost guilty

I know what you mean -- I supported Clinton's war on Serbia on behalf of Muslim immigrants, and now I feel I was played as a fool. We should never have interferred.

for discussion How would muslims world wide
react to USA attampts to restore order in Egypt

We are incapable of restoring order in Muslim countries: look at Iraq with the continual daily mass bombings. We can cause a country to go up in flames, but we can't put the flames out. Better leave it all alone.

Presumably Egypt will now descend into civil war like Syria and Libya did. And then it will spread, probably Pakistan next, as they have been on the edge for some time. This is actually quite a remarkable historical event going on! Almost no one in this country notices. Could be big, though.

 

[irosie91]

I was a big supporter of food aid to somalia ---
that fact makes me feel almost guilty

I know what you mean -- I supported Clinton's war on Serbia on behalf of Muslim immigrants, and now I feel I was played as a fool. We should never have interferred.

for discussion How would muslims world wide
react to USA attampts to restore order in Egypt

We are incapable of restoring order in Muslim countries: look at Iraq with the continual daily mass bombings. We can cause a country to go up in flames, but we can't put the flames out. Better leave it all alone.

Presumably Egypt will now descend into civil war like Syria and Libya did. And then it will spread, probably Pakistan next, as they have been on the edge for some time. This is actually quite a remarkable historical event going on! Almost no one in this country notices. Could be big, though.

My theory is that there is a growing movement ----that includes very strange
bed-fellows-----Like Hezbollah joining hands with Al Queida-----for the
attainment of the BIG PRIZE -------control of saudi arabia How is that for
CONSPIRACY PSYCHOSIS? he who controls that land of the two
mosques ----controls the UMMAH-----keep in mind--- Osama's
agenda was --just as I just described. Yemen is generally a sunni
land----rignt now there is a growing Hezbollah presence there----
Osama was a sunni of ----saudi/yemeni parentage. The two
major islamicist imperialist movements are moving closer and closer
together The muslim brotherhood and al queida---are simply
identical twins joined at the ischium

then there is turkey-----well-----Erdogan would like nothing better than
a reestblishment of THE CALIPHATE with himself as Caliph-----but
he will probably---eventually drop the idea or turkey will drop him----
whichever comes first. Erdogan ---in position and 'philosphy' reminds
me of Moussolini. The Ayatoilets of Iran----do not actually envision
the caliphate with turkey at the helm

 

[Circe]

My theory is that there is a growing movement ----that includes very strange
bed-fellows-----Like Hezbollah joining hands with Al Queida-----for the
attainment of the BIG PRIZE -------control of saudi arabia How is that for
CONSPIRACY PSYCHOSIS? he who controls that land of the two
mosques ----controls the UMMAH-----keep in mind--- Osama's
agenda was --just as I just described. Yemen is generally a sunni
land----rignt now there is a growing Hezbollah presence there----
Osama was a sunni of ----saudi/yemeni parentage. The two
major islamicist imperialist movements are moving closer and closer
together The muslim brotherhood and al queida---are simply
identical twins joined at the ischium

then there is turkey-----well-----Erdogan would like nothing better than
a reestblishment of THE CALIPHATE with himself as Caliph-----but
he will probably---eventually drop the idea or turkey will drop him----
whichever comes first. Erdogan ---in position and 'philosphy' reminds
me of Moussolini. The Ayatoilets of Iran----do not actually envision
the caliphate with turkey at the helm

I like your ideas. It's time to think big, all right. Things happening are likely to be things we don't understand, didn't expect. Like 9/11 was unexpected, incomprehensible.

My idea of the moment is that this is the beginning of World War III.

There is no law that WWIII has to start in Europe, after all!! Just that it has to affect ....the world. Japan started our participation in WWII, not Europe, a war we were resolutely staying out of until Pearl Harbor, to Churchill's intense frustration.

Here is America's norm for world wars (N=2 so far): We stay OUT for one to two years, based on important civilian disgust for foreign wars and our involvement. But the situation rapidly deteriorates, and both sides move heaven and earth to involve us, and eventually, they succeed. For the German side, this has repeatedly been a terrible, terrible mistake. Our new unwillingness to fight actual wars and actually win may make Muslim enemies decide they can win against us, since they have been winning in Iraq and Afghanistan, after all, for ten years or more.

They could be right. There are a lot of them, and we have been vitiated by truly stupid pacifistic "humanitarian" values ginned up lately about how everything is relative.

On the other hand, we could return to our senses and cook them in their own pots. I would support that.

 

[irosie91]

Circe------I support ---careful obervation of the cook-pot-----I use a very low
flame----special on my stove----functions almost like the crockpots
that I lost when I moved------(oh well). But even a low flame
can end in a burnt disaster------so-----at nite-----when I wake up----
I do check the pot--------AND TURN IT OFF------at the first sign of SINGE

By this method-----my beans---red beans, black beans, chick peas----
are always cooked to perfection------

you have a nice idea there re "STAYING OUT OF IT"-----but in the end---
the US will be -----well in -----hopefully just to TURN THE FLAME OFF

Right now I support airlifting christians out of Egypt, Syria and
Lebanon--------I have a problem with genocides/ BLOODLESS
population shifts seem to be an ideal solution ----to me

 

[irosie91]

Remember the green park square shown above? It's now covered with tear gas and rioters.



Could be as bad a day today in Egypt as Wednesday was. BBC had to withdraw from Ramses Square because of active gunfire.

The ethics of this seem to me to turn on the right of the state to maintain law and order: there is no question but that the rioters are violent. Is that supposed to be............okay? I don't think so.

Of course they are going to riot when their democratically elected government was ousted in a military coup.

Wouldn't we Americans do the same if it happened in our country?? ..

Some might.....but a lot would support the agents of law and order, as the majority of Egyptians are doing.

The basic function of government IS to maintain law and order. Morsi, of course, was illegally trying to engineer a Sharia fundamentalist takeover and turn Egypt into a theocracy. The army moved against Morsi's abnegation of law and order, and now they are moving against all the zombie-like rioters, who are violently burning and wrecking.

Works for me. I'm no fan of rioters running through the streets destroying everything in their path. Is anybody? All those in favor of the swarming zombies, speak up.

Right now----the ISLAMICIST PARTYLINE----is that the Pro morsi people ---
are THE PEOPLE -----and the anti-morsi people are the murdering thugs.

give it time-----soon the anti morsi people will be MOSSAD ----keep in
mind-------Riots in the streets of Teheran were actually created by
British interventionists -----somehow by telephone-----as in

"hey Ferradoon and Fatimah-----Reginald here---its raining in
London------now be good chaps and go out and riot in the
streets of Teheran-----cheerio"

 

[Circe]

Circe------I support ---careful obervation of the cook-pot-----I use a very low
flame----special on my stove----functions almost like the crockpots
that I lost when I moved------(oh well). But even a low flame
can end in a burnt disaster------so-----at nite-----when I wake up----
I do check the pot--------AND TURN IT OFF------at the first sign of SINGE

By this method-----my beans---red beans, black beans, chick peas----
are always cooked to perfection------

Crockpots good, pressure cookers not so good. As we have recently seen. Literally and figuratively.

I have a problem with genocides/ BLOODLESS
population shifts seem to be an ideal solution ----to me

I entirely agree.

In fact, I have a little list.

I'm not in favor of population transfers into the middle of a desert (the Germans moved 10,000 Herero tribespeople into a desert in 1906, so much for the Herero, and of course the Turks moved all the Armenians they could straight into desert and kept them there till they died), but transfers into areas depopulated by war (Syria comes to mind, later) or equatorial areas would be reasonable.

 

[Ringel05]

Apparently the demonstrations today are mixed, the civilian supporters of the military and the Morsi supporters mixing it up in the park and in the residential areas. Reports of gunfire in both Cairo and Alexandria now, and several deaths in both cities.

The potential for civil war in Egypt is obvious. And the potential for this fight between Islamists and secularists spreading worldwide: already today large demonstrations are forming in support of the Egyptian Islamists in Yemen and Indonesia.

Western political commentators have started openly wondering if Egypt will descend into civil war on the scale of Syria.

The whole point of all this is whether Islamists can bring fundamentalist, Sharia rule to Egypt and other countries: that is what Morsi tried to do and why the army staged a coup.

I think the US and Europe will cry crocodile tears as they are doing now but will do nothing real against the coup and the killings of Islamist rioters. It is definitely not in our interests for Egypt to dissolve into civil war like Syria! Nor is it in Western interests for primitive Islamist fundamentalists to take over in all Muslim lands.

Yup!

The USA, despite all its military power, can do nothing about the fact that there is a battle for the heart and soil of Egypt.

Secularists V BELIEVERS.

We are having a rather similar battle in the USA, no?

Much of the world seems to find itself facing this civil strife between BELIEVERS and SECULARISTS.

At least in this country we tend to refrain from killing each other over it...... I for one don't want either side to win, don't see any good coming out of the one side or the other winning scenario. (In this country).

 

[Ringel05]

Of course they are going to riot when their democratically elected government was ousted in a military coup.

Wouldn't we Americans do the same if it happened in our country?? ..

Some might.....but a lot would support the agents of law and order, as the majority of Egyptians are doing.

The basic function of government IS to maintain law and order. Morsi, of course, was illegally trying to engineer a Sharia fundamentalist takeover and turn Egypt into a theocracy. The army moved against Morsi's abnegation of law and order, and now they are moving against all the zombie-like rioters, who are violently burning and wrecking.

Works for me. I'm no fan of rioters running through the streets destroying everything in their path. Is anybody? All those in favor of the swarming zombies, speak up.

Right now----the ISLAMICIST PARTYLINE----is that the Pro morsi people ---
are THE PEOPLE -----and the anti-morsi people are the murdering thugs.

give it time-----soon the anti morsi people will be MOSSAD ----keep in
mind-------Riots in the streets of Teheran were actually created by
British interventionists -----somehow by telephone-----as in

"hey Ferradoon and Fatimah-----Reginald here---its raining in
London------now be good chaps and go out and riot in the
streets of Teheran-----cheerio"

Damn you must stay dizzy all the time!!!!

 

[Circe]

Secularists V BELIEVERS.

We are having a rather similar battle in the USA, no?

Much of the world seems to find itself facing this civil strife between BELIEVERS and SECULARISTS.

At least in this country we tend to refrain from killing each other over it...... I for one don't want either side to win, don't see any good coming out of the one side or the other winning scenario. (In this country).

It could come, but I don't think religious fundamentalists against secularists are the whole story here: a lot of the right is simply traditionalist conservatives, rather than religious. Right? And indeed, we don't shoot it out or one side try to take over the whole government like Morsi did.

So far.