Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria

[Osomir]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

 

[Steinlight]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.

 

[Steinlight]

To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.

 

[Osomir]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.

That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.

I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.

 

[Osomir]

To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.

Well you are facing a number of issues here in your attempted description; one of the primary ones of which is the fact that Boko Haram isn't a single group, and has never really ever been since violence started (even before that Shekau operated under a group called the Nigerian Taliban as a splinter faction). I'd be happy to discuss Boko Haram in more detail with you though; I worked on issues relating to them during my time in government.

 

[ChrisL]

To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.

Well you are facing a number of issues here in your attempted description; one of the primary ones of which is the fact that Boko Haram isn't a single group, and has never really ever been since violence started (even before that Shekau operated under a group called the Nigerian Taliban as a splinter faction). I'd be happy to discuss Boko Haram in more detail with you though; I worked on issues relating to them during my time in government.

Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam. Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned. Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?

You say you worked for the government. Which government? Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.

Boko Haram - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Boko Haram ("Western education is forbidden"), officially called Jama'atu Ahlis Sunna Lidda'Awati Wal-Jihad("People Committed to the Prophet's Teachings for Propagation and Jihad"), is a terrorist, militant and Islamistmovement based in northeast Nigeria with additional activities in Chad, Niger and Cameroon.[9] The group is led by Abubakar Shekau, and estimates of its strength vary between 500 and 9000. They have been linked to al-Qaeda and ISIS.[1][2][3] [14]

The group is designated as a terrorist organization by New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, the United States and the United Nations Security Council, which declared it an al-Qaeda affiliate and imposed the al-Qaeda sanctions regime on the group.[9][15][16]

Boko Haram killed more than 5,000 civilians between July 2009 and June 2014, including at least 2,000 in the first half of 2014, in attacks occurring mainly in northeast, north-central and central Nigeria.[17][18][19] Corruption in the security services and human rights abuses committed by them have hampered efforts to counter the unrest.[20][21] Since 2009 Boko Haram have abducted more than 500 men,[22][23] women and children, including the kidnapping of 276 schoolgirls from Chibok in April 2014.[24] 650,000 people had fled the conflict zone by August 2014, an increase of 200,000 since May; by the end of the year 1.5 million had fled.[25][26]

After its founding in 2002, Boko Haram's increasing radicalisation led to a violent uprising in July 2009 in which its leader was executed.[27] Its unexpected resurgence, following a mass prison break in September 2010, was accompanied by increasingly sophisticated attacks, initially against soft targets, and progressing in 2011 to include suicide bombings on police buildings and the United Nations office in Abuja. The government's establishment of a state of emergency at the beginning of 2012, extended in the following year to cover the entire northeast of the country, resulted in a marked increase in both security force abuses and militant attacks. The Nigerian military proved ineffective in countering the insurgency, hampered by an entrenched culture of official corruption. Since mid-2014, the militants have been in control of swathes of territory in and around their home state of Borno, but have not captured the capital of Borno state, Maiduguri, where the group was originally based.

As of January 2015, Boko Haram controlled towns and villages across about 20,000 square miles, an area the size of Belgium, in the states of Borno and Yobe.[28]

 

[Osomir]

Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam. Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned. Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?

You say you worked for the government. Which government? Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.

Boko Haram has not operated in a consistent manner since its inception. It started off as non-violent, became violent and then immediately fractured into multiple splinter groups (there are at least six of them). The faction that you are likely most familiar with: Shekau's faction, is the one that has been the most popularized within our general media, due largely to the Chibok incident, and to his use by other factional leaders as a public speaking head here and there to deflect attention away from their own cells / factions. Like most militant organizations its tactics, ideologies, and goals have shifted as realities change on the ground and as conflict drags out over longer periods of time. This is a pretty natural thing to happen within conflict in general. Earlier in their existence they relied heavily on the preachings of their ideologue Mohammed Yusuf. They were largely co-opted by northern political parties in order to mobilize the youth vote and influence towards one party or another in exchange for the political party's assurances that they would reform the way that shariah law existed in the northern provinces to mesh more closely with their ideological brand which stemmed from Saudi Arabian Wahhabi funds. Thus, Yusuf's brand of Islam was quite different from traditional Nigerian Islamic structures even if it was still at that time non-violent. Shekau always represented the more militant wing of the organziation, in fact he broke ranks with it for a while which is when if formed the Nigerian Taliban, but things didn't go so well for him and the group broke down and was reabsorbed by Yusuf.

After Yusuf was killed in the 2009 "uprising" / massacre the group split up, some of their leaders fled northward to Algeria and Mali, others made for Afghanistan or Somalia, some stayed underground. Since then and since the relative two year lul in which they were reorganizing into their different factions their evolution has twisted and turned and varried greatly. At first, they tried to justify their attacks through sharia law sets but their PR department had a hard time justifying many of their attacks, such as the bombing of say bars on shariah law since such law sets usually don't prescribe the death penalty for drinking alcohol (just as an example). then they faced huge criticism over their targeted attacks of Christians who are considered a protective class. Shekau responded to this with an essential collapse of Boko Haram's PR system and a shift from trying to recruit based on ideological principle to forced recruitment of conscripts from towns they raided coupled with targeted killing efforts against traditional Islamic power holders within Nigeria (Such as the Emir of Kano for example). Much like we saw with the LRA in Uganda and the DR Congo, Boko Haram's "main" body essentially devolved into an armed gang seeking protection money and enriching itself through plunder which has become the main focus of their attacks and away from the coupling with political parties and the lobbying for shariah law sets within Nigeria. they are really little more than a rampant criminal organization at this point. the GSPC (AQIM) went through a heavy phase of this too where they started relying on drug smuggling.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam. Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned. Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?

You say you worked for the government. Which government? Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.

Boko Haram has not operated in a consistent manner since its inception. It started off as non-violent, became violent and then immediately fractured into multiple splinter groups (there are at least six of them). The faction that you are likely most familiar with: Shekau's faction, is the one that has been the most popularized within our general media, due largely to the Chibok incident, and to his use by other factional leaders as a public speaking head here and there to deflect attention away from their own cells / factions. Like most militant organizations its tactics, ideologies, and goals have shifted as realities change on the ground and as conflict drags out over longer periods of time. This is a pretty natural thing to happen within conflict in general. Earlier in their existence they relied heavily on the preachings of their ideologue Mohammed Yusuf. They were largely co-opted by northern political parties in order to mobilize the youth vote and influence towards one party or another in exchange for the political party's assurances that they would reform the way that shariah law existed in the northern provinces to mesh more closely with their ideological brand which stemmed from Saudi Arabian Wahhabi funds. Thus, Yusuf's brand of Islam was quite different from traditional Nigerian Islamic structures even if it was still at that time non-violent. Shekau always represented the more militant wing of the organziation, in fact he broke ranks with it for a while which is when if formed the Nigerian Taliban, but things didn't go so well for him and the group broke down and was reabsorbed by Yusuf.

After Yusuf was killed in the 2009 "uprising" / massacre the group split up, some of their leaders fled northward to Algeria and Mali, others made for Afghanistan or Somalia, some stayed underground. Since then and since the relative two year lul in which they were reorganizing into their different factions their evolution has twisted and turned and varried greatly. At first, they tried to justify their attacks through sharia law sets but their PR department had a hard time justifying many of their attacks, such as the bombing of say bars on shariah law since such law sets usually don't prescribe the death penalty for drinking alcohol (just as an example). then they faced huge criticism over their targeted attacks of Christians who are considered a protective class. Shekau responded to this with an essential collapse of Boko Haram's PR system and a shift from trying to recruit based on ideological principle to forced recruitment of conscripts from towns they raided coupled with targeted killing efforts against traditional Islamic power holders within Nigeria (Such as the Emir of Kano for example). Much like we saw with the LRA in Uganda and the DR Congo, Boko Haram's "main" body essentially devolved into an armed gang seeking protection money and enriching itself through plunder which has become the main focus of their attacks and away from the coupling with political parties and the lobbying for shariah law sets within Nigeria. they are really little more than a rampant criminal organization at this point. the GSPC (AQIM) went through a heavy phase of this too where they started relying on drug smuggling.

That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard. not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means. A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true. The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him. He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

 

[Osomir]

That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard. not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means. A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true. The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him. He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

A couple of things to note here:

1.) Yusuf (Boko Haram's ideologue) was not really the kind of violent man that Shekau currently is. The idea is not that Shekau is currently following Wahhabi Islam, but rather it is that he and his faction have completely evolved away from a reliance on ideology and have moved into forceful recruitment and banditry. they have been condemned by all major internal Nigerian Islamic groupings, have had to resort to assassinating Nigerian sheiks for disagreeing with them, are currently fighting other Muslims who have risen up to combat them in the form of the Civilian Joint Task Force (CJTF), and have even been condemned by Al Qaeda (more specifically by AQIM, which is pretty radical in and of itself). they had to abandon their PR wing largely because they simply CAN'T rconciled their current actions with anything even remotely close to any type of shariah law set even by any stretch of the imagination (and they certainly tried).

2.) Sharia law varies greatly across region and school of thought. Just like civil law sets do. Just as a side note, there has never been one single unified code of shariah law. It is also worth noting that many (if not most) of Boko Haram's victims are themselves Muslim.

 

[ChrisL]

That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard. not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means. A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true. The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him. He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.

A couple of things to note here:

1.) Yusuf (Boko Haram's ideologue) was not really the kind of violent man that Shekau currently is. The idea is not that Shekau is currently following Wahhabi Islam, but rather it is that he and his faction have completely evolved away from a reliance on ideology and have moved into forceful recruitment and banditry. they have been condemned by all major internal Nigerian Islamic groupings, have had to resort to assassinating Nigerian sheiks for disagreeing with them, are currently fighting other Muslims who have risen up to combat them in the form of the Civilian Joint Task Force (CJTF), and have even been condemned by Al Qaeda (more specifically by AQIM, which is pretty radical in and of itself). they had to abandon their PR wing largely because they simply CAN'T rconciled their current actions with anything even remotely close to any type of shariah law set even by any stretch of the imagination (and they certainly tried).

2.) Sharia law varies greatly across region and school of thought. Just like civil law sets do. Just as a side note, there has never been one single unified code of shariah law. It is also worth noting that many (if not most) of Boko Haram's victims are themselves Muslim.

Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2. I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.

In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs? Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems. I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.

 

[Osomir]

Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2. I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.

In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs? Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems. I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.

Unlike the Taliban, I don't really see true governance as a goal of theirs. They don't have, nor are they likely to win the support of local populations; one reason why fear through massacres and brutality is now one of their main tactics. The Taliban always had a more solid ideological core and really drew a lot of its recruits from religious schools in Pakistan in a way that Boko Haram has been unable to do so. More importantly, Boko Haram (due in part to their brutality) hasn't been able to forge the strong links to other Islamist groups that the Taliban depended on (the Haqqani Network). I think we definitely did see ideological drift in the Taliban, as we tend to see in all long term militant organizations, but not to this extent save for more recently (particularly Pakistan's TTP faction). Some factions do have those links, particularly to AQIM, but those aren't the ones under Shekau.

 

[ChrisL]

Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2. I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.

In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs? Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems. I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.

Unlike the Taliban, I don't really see true governance as a goal of theirs. They don't have, nor are they likely to win the support of local populations; one reason why fear through massacres and brutality is now one of their main tactics. The Taliban always had a more solid ideological core and really drew a lot of its recruits from religious schools in Pakistan in a way that Boko Haram has been unable to do so. More importantly, Boko Haram (due in part to their brutality) hasn't been able to forge the strong links to other Islamist groups that the Taliban depended on (the Haqqani Network). I think we definitely did see ideological drift in the Taliban, as we tend to see in all long term militant organizations, but not to this extent save for more recently (particularly Pakistan's TTP faction). Some factions do have those links, particularly to AQIM, but those aren't the ones under Shekau.

Well, I must admit that I'm not too knowledgeable about the different factions when it comes to some of these 3rd world countries and their religious minorities/majorities, but it seems to me that all of these groups tend to employ Sharia as a way to control the people. Perhaps the Taliban is more in control, but I've heard of some pretty brutal acts by them as well.

Let's just put it this way, I would not want ANY of them to be in control of me. Lol.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Nonsense. Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam. They could be the poster boys for it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.

That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.

I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.

Try the Qu'ran. There are 109 murder verses in there that they can use to justify their actions. Add to this the hadith collection of Bukhari, second to the Qur'an and full of violence and allowances for the murder of women, children, civilians, whoever they feel like murdering. I do not care what your job was - your seriously misinformed on Boko Haram when it comes to their following Islam. They do. To the "T".

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

This is the exact same thing Mohammad did. Abduction, rape, sex slaves, looting, "selling slaves", you name it. This is Islam. The real Islam. Wake up, America.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria"

Your unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam only exhibits how ignorant and ridiculous you are.

 

[ChrisL]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.

That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.

I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.

Try the Qu'ran. There are 109 murder verses in there that they can use to justify their actions. Add to this the hadith collection of Bukhari, second to the Qur'an and full of violence and allowances for the murder of women, children, civilians, whoever they feel like murdering. I do not care what your job was - your seriously misinformed on Boko Haram when it comes to their following Islam. They do. To the "T".

That is what I tend to believe too, Jeri, but I'm not expert on the matter. I also believe that they are following the REAL Islam. Now, some might say the same about Christianity, as there are also some quite violent verses and stories in the Bible as well. However, Islam doesn't have a Jesus Christ to kind of balance things out. They have Muhammed, who was a warrior and a brutal fighter. He was not a peaceful man from everything I have read and heard about.

 

[ChrisL]

"Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria"

Your unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam only exhibits how ignorant and ridiculous you are.

Unwarranted? WTF is WRONG with you people? People throughout the world have a DAMN good reason for not trusting this ideology, and I am sick of you liberals pretending as if it is "unwarranted." It is NOT unwarranted.

 

[Osomir]

No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West

Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.

Nonsense. Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam. They could be the poster boys for it.

Not very compelling supporting evidence you have there.

 

[Osomir]

That is what I tend to believe too, Jeri, but I'm not expert on the matter. I also believe that they are following the REAL Islam.

I find this to be a rather nonplussing statement given that:

1.) They haven't even practiced a consistent governance style throughout the organization's life. How can it be the "real form of Islam" if it keeps changing dramatically on any given day?

2.) Not even Al Qaeda, and even the more "radical wings of it like the GSPC are willing to call what Boko Haram does Islamic, let alone ANY school of thought within Islam outside of Boko Haram. Even ISIL has ignored their calls for partnership and support. So I am a little curious about what would make you believe ( or I suppose Jeremiah) that this is the ONE "real" expression of Islam in the world.

3.) Boko Haram hasn't even been able to defend their own actions through even the furthest twists and most perverse and cherry picked verses from any Islamic texts / hadith collections. It's why their PR department collapsed and stopped even trying to do so. So even Boko Haram has essentially given in to the fact that their actions aren't Islamic.