Is This Racist?

[Conservative65]

My problem with the affirmative action concept is that the people who support it say using race not to hire is wrong yet when the same things is used to hire, they see nothing wrong with it. If using race is wrong, it's wrong in both cases.

And we are back to the socially acceptable double standard that exists today.

I'm not Liberal so I don't accept it.

lol. Nor do I but that was not what I was saying. It is socially acceptable right now even if that acceptance is something you or I would consider wrong. Unfortunately it does not seem that will change anytime soon either.

As long as the blame ****** crowd can convince legislators that those never having owned a slave owe something to those that never were slaves, it won't change.

Those benefitting from affirmative action will say they only want to be judged by their qualifications yet are willing to accept race as being one of those qualifications when the ones they have don't cut it.

Now Conservative65
To be perfectly fair
it is true that because of slavery laws, where many slaves did not own property not even their own bodies which were by law the legal property of others,
whole generations are left 150 behind on the learning curve.

Where not only do they have no understanding or experience with ownership
but inherited RESENTMENT of laws and property as if this is "white man's culture"

So this very thing they are so against
is enslaving them as victims.

I would not blame a rape victim for going through stages of not trusting
men or wanting to be around them because it triggers this emotional response.

It takes SEVERAL generations to heal of this genocide.
Look at Native Americans with drinking and gambling problems.
How much of that was already there and how much was from the oppression
carried down, who knows? Only God knows where this ill will came from.

But the common factor to healing is FORGIVENESS which is a mutual process.
Just pushing blame back and forth
is like tossing the garbage back and forth over the same fence
where neither neighbor is actually getting rid of the problem.

We keep dumping it back in the other neighbor's yard
thinking it's their responsibility to clean it up. And they do the same.
And the garbage goes back and forth without fixing anything!

My family, one of white heritage, didn't come to this country until 1905 from E.Europe. We never owned slaves nor lived here until 40 years after slavery ended.

I wouldn't blame a rape victim for going through those stages. I would have a problem is the descendents of that rape victim blamed descendents of the rapist 150 years later.

The only type of forgiveness many who support AA want is for white people to sit down, shut up, and take the blame inlcuding those of us whose family wasn't here during the time for which they want white people to take the blame. I have nothing for which to ask forgiveness on this matter nor no forgiveness to give.

As for several generations, my first year in school was the first year blacks and whites went to school together at the same school. That was 3 generations back. I am also a former school teacher that quite often heard the "you're only saying that to me because I'm black" excuses.

As long as being white despite my family not being here during slave times means I should be expected to accept AA as a policy, I'll keep dumping the trash back. My family didn't create it nor should any of us be expected to dispose of it.

 

[Carla_Danger]

KKK Billboard Causes Stir - Ozarksfirst

Hell, even the author of the billboard thinks it's a racist sign, otherwise they wouldn't be broadcasting that it's not racist.

Fucking ignorant thread.

 

[emilynghiem]

Is this the place where I can pretend that one group is like another? Great!

PETA are Nazis...Am I doing it right? Sure PETA never killed anyone but I love false equivalent arguments

Hey ClosedCaption
The fun doesn't stop here.
Check out Delta4Embassy thread on 13 ways the "Tea Party are like the Taliban."
Sadly, the way some people posted on there, I'm beginning to see
why they can't tell the difference!

 

[emilynghiem]

And we are back to the socially acceptable double standard that exists today.

I'm not Liberal so I don't accept it.

lol. Nor do I but that was not what I was saying. It is socially acceptable right now even if that acceptance is something you or I would consider wrong. Unfortunately it does not seem that will change anytime soon either.

As long as the blame ****** crowd can convince legislators that those never having owned a slave owe something to those that never were slaves, it won't change.

Those benefitting from affirmative action will say they only want to be judged by their qualifications yet are willing to accept race as being one of those qualifications when the ones they have don't cut it.

Now Conservative65
To be perfectly fair
it is true that because of slavery laws, where many slaves did not own property not even their own bodies which were by law the legal property of others,
whole generations are left 150 behind on the learning curve.

Where not only do they have no understanding or experience with ownership
but inherited RESENTMENT of laws and property as if this is "white man's culture"

So this very thing they are so against
is enslaving them as victims.

I would not blame a rape victim for going through stages of not trusting
men or wanting to be around them because it triggers this emotional response.

It takes SEVERAL generations to heal of this genocide.
Look at Native Americans with drinking and gambling problems.
How much of that was already there and how much was from the oppression
carried down, who knows? Only God knows where this ill will came from.

But the common factor to healing is FORGIVENESS which is a mutual process.
Just pushing blame back and forth
is like tossing the garbage back and forth over the same fence
where neither neighbor is actually getting rid of the problem.

We keep dumping it back in the other neighbor's yard
thinking it's their responsibility to clean it up. And they do the same.
And the garbage goes back and forth without fixing anything!

My family, one of white heritage, didn't come to this country until 1905 from E.Europe. We never owned slaves nor lived here until 40 years after slavery ended.

I wouldn't blame a rape victim for going through those stages. I would have a problem is the descendents of that rape victim blamed descendents of the rapist 150 years later.

The only type of forgiveness many who support AA want is for white people to sit down, shut up, and take the blame inlcuding those of us whose family wasn't here during the time for which they want white people to take the blame. I have nothing for which to ask forgiveness on this matter nor no forgiveness to give.

As for several generations, my first year in school was the first year blacks and whites went to school together at the same school. That was 3 generations back. I am also a former school teacher that quite often heard the "you're only saying that to me because I'm black" excuses.

As long as being white despite my family not being here during slave times means I should be expected to accept AA as a policy, I'll keep dumping the trash back. My family didn't create it nor should any of us be expected to dispose of it.

Hey Conservative
I hear what you are saying.
I agree it is racist to blame "all one group" for the actions of some members.
If the Blacks don't like to be assumed they are all "lazy thugs" who want to blame others,
why is it okay to say all whites owe privileges to the black slaves and not equally to white founders.

But look at the case of when that officer in Portland
said he was Sorry for all the mess that was scaring that poor kid.

Was he apologizing and taking on blame/responsibility for what other people did?
No, but he was genuinely sympathizing and expressing common sorrow and regret that this violence is happening. It IS real, it is IS hurting people and relations on all sides, and it IS scaring kids, parents, and police where they don't know who might end up dead next. Of course, the officer could honestly say he was SORRY for all that, and NO it doesn't mean enabling others or taking on blame that doesn't belong.

The officer actually supports his fellow police,
and that's what makes his outreach to the boy so much more meaningful.

That's what we need, mutual acceptance that the problems are mutual.
It's not about taking on the burden of others and enabling wrongdoing etc.
It's about letting go of the whole situation and quit holding onto resentment and blame that isn't helping.

The same acceptance and forgiveness it takes to get EITHER side to "let go" of saying
the other side is more to blame. When we recognize we are in the boat together,
and nobody's problems aren't shared in one way or another by everyone who has to face similar struggles, but just in different forms.

Nobody's pain and suffering is greater than someone else.
Relative speaking, the greater problems someone may face in one area, the greater rewards
and support they receive compared with someone else. Nobody's situation is going to be exactly like someone else.
Where we make mistakes is trying to compare these and make them the same.
They're not.

Each person needs support to go through their growth including recovery
from whatever setbacks they experience.
==============================================================
BTW in the case of rape or murder, yes there are cases that have been made
to represent a whole group. Like the outcry against OJ Simpson and Pistorius.
People are blaming the justice system for letting richer people buy their way out of crimes,
and yes some people WERE blaming the reactions on RACE.

the common factor is when people "see" a person or issue as "representing" a
whole group, stereotype, whether race religion or political affiliation.
This is a mix of projection, and bad karma between those groups that
needs to be resolved and healed, or else the vicious cycle continues.

The infighting in the Middle East, the division between Jews Christians
and Muslims: how much of that is "conditioning" passed down from one generation to the next?
It's a vicious cycle, and the only way out is forgiveness, forgiving the whole mess
so people can start fresh, work together to repair the wrongs and problems inherited from the past,
and not add any more problems or grief to the pile so it quits growing larger and larger.

 

[Conservative65]

I'm not Liberal so I don't accept it.

lol. Nor do I but that was not what I was saying. It is socially acceptable right now even if that acceptance is something you or I would consider wrong. Unfortunately it does not seem that will change anytime soon either.

As long as the blame ****** crowd can convince legislators that those never having owned a slave owe something to those that never were slaves, it won't change.

Those benefitting from affirmative action will say they only want to be judged by their qualifications yet are willing to accept race as being one of those qualifications when the ones they have don't cut it.

Now Conservative65
To be perfectly fair
it is true that because of slavery laws, where many slaves did not own property not even their own bodies which were by law the legal property of others,
whole generations are left 150 behind on the learning curve.

Where not only do they have no understanding or experience with ownership
but inherited RESENTMENT of laws and property as if this is "white man's culture"

So this very thing they are so against
is enslaving them as victims.

I would not blame a rape victim for going through stages of not trusting
men or wanting to be around them because it triggers this emotional response.

It takes SEVERAL generations to heal of this genocide.
Look at Native Americans with drinking and gambling problems.
How much of that was already there and how much was from the oppression
carried down, who knows? Only God knows where this ill will came from.

But the common factor to healing is FORGIVENESS which is a mutual process.
Just pushing blame back and forth
is like tossing the garbage back and forth over the same fence
where neither neighbor is actually getting rid of the problem.

We keep dumping it back in the other neighbor's yard
thinking it's their responsibility to clean it up. And they do the same.
And the garbage goes back and forth without fixing anything!

My family, one of white heritage, didn't come to this country until 1905 from E.Europe. We never owned slaves nor lived here until 40 years after slavery ended.

I wouldn't blame a rape victim for going through those stages. I would have a problem is the descendents of that rape victim blamed descendents of the rapist 150 years later.

The only type of forgiveness many who support AA want is for white people to sit down, shut up, and take the blame inlcuding those of us whose family wasn't here during the time for which they want white people to take the blame. I have nothing for which to ask forgiveness on this matter nor no forgiveness to give.

As for several generations, my first year in school was the first year blacks and whites went to school together at the same school. That was 3 generations back. I am also a former school teacher that quite often heard the "you're only saying that to me because I'm black" excuses.

As long as being white despite my family not being here during slave times means I should be expected to accept AA as a policy, I'll keep dumping the trash back. My family didn't create it nor should any of us be expected to dispose of it.

Hey Conservative
I hear what you are saying.
I agree it is racist to blame "all one group" for the actions of some members.
If the Blacks don't like to be assumed they are all "lazy thugs" who want to blame others,
why is it okay to say all whites owe privileges to the black slaves and not equally to white founders.

But look at the case of when that officer in Portland
said he was Sorry for all the mess that was scaring that poor kid.

Was he apologizing and taking on blame/responsibility for what other people did?
No, but he was generally expressing and sympathizing sorrow and regret that this violence is happening. It IS real, it is IS hurting people and relations on all sides, and it IS scaring kids, parents, and police where they don't know who might end up dead next. Of course, the officer could honestly say he was SORRY for all that, and NO it doesn't mean enabling others or taking on blame that doesn't belong.

The officer actually supports his fellow police,
and that's what makes his outreach to the boy so much more meaningful.

That's what we need, mutual acceptance that the problems are mutual.
It's not about taking on the burden of others and enabling wrongdoing etc.
It's about letting go of the whole situation and quit holding onto resentment and blame that isn't helping.

The same acceptance and forgiveness it takes to get EITHER side to "let go" of saying
the other side is more to blame. When we recognize we are in the boat together,
and nobody's problems aren't shared in one way or another by everyone who has to face similar struggles, but just in different forms.

Nobody's pain and suffering is greater than someone else.
Relative speaking, the greater problems someone may face in one area, the greater rewards
and support they receive compared with someone else. Nobody's situation is going to be exactly like someone else.
Where we make mistakes is trying to compare these and make them the same.
They're not.

Each person needs support to go through their growth including recovery
from whatever setbacks they experience.
==============================================================
BTW in the case of rape or murder, yes there are cases that have been made
to represent a whole group. Like the outcry against OJ Simpson and Pistorius.
People are blaming the justice system for letting richer people buy their way out of crimes,
and yes some people WERE blaming the reactions on RACE.

the common factor is when people "see" a person or issue as "representing" a
whole group, stereotype, whether race religion or political affiliation.
This is a mix of projection, and bad karma between those groups that
needs to be resolved and healed, or else the vicious cycle continues.

The infighting in the Middle East, the division between Jews Christians
and Muslims: how much of that is "conditioning" passed down from one generation to the next?
It's a vicious cycle, and the only way out is forgiveness, forgiving the whole mess
so people can start fresh, work together to repair the wrongs and problems inherited from the past,
and not add any more problems or grief to the pile so it quits growing larger and larger.

When an issue applies to a vast majority of the group, it's no longer a stereotype.

Much of the conditioning of the division between Jews and Muslims is passed down. Both side believe they have a very real claim to the land over which they fight. It's too long of a Biblical lesson. Let's just say it goes all the way back to Abraham, Isaac, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael.

 

[G.T.]

Racism is so funny to me.​

Also self proclaimed and DISclaimed non racist who then go onto say "but why can blacks say x and its ok and whites do this and its bad,"

And then list their slew of double standards theyre mad at which all but showcase their damn antipathy toward black people.

Heres some good advice.

If you think a black guy or a group of black people does something you find racist or that "you couldnt get away with."

Then dont go off being like "but black ppl do x."

Be like "this specific guy, or group of guys, are idiots " and leave it at that.

There is not some leviathon of race where ppl of certain races are ALL out there doing or thinking the same way, at all. Thats why the real world outside of trying to 'know everything' or put everything in a box is quite fucking refreshing.

You can clearly tell who the recluses are, who the irrational haters are and ultimately- who the racists are.

 

[Asclepias]

No, it's a sign written in plain English calling for White pride. There's no secret "code".

Oh, the code isn't secret. The words "white pride" may literally mean proud of the white race, but what it really means is other races are inferior to the white race. You can pretend that isn't it's meaning, but...

Its not secrete code - it is plain English and is still racist.

I think your standards are too strict. I see nothing wrong in feeling pride in your race as long as you Long as you don't believe that other races are inferior. I feel proud of my heritage without perceiving others' heritages as inferior to mine. I think its weird to feel racial pride, but not inherently racist.

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

 

[Asclepias]

No, it's a sign written in plain English calling for White pride. There's no secret "code".

Oh, the code isn't secret. The words "white pride" may literally mean proud of the white race, but what it really means is other races are inferior to the white race. You can pretend that isn't it's meaning, but...

Its not secrete code - it is plain English and is still racist.

I think your standards are too strict. I see nothing wrong in feeling pride in your race as long as you Long as you don't believe that other races are inferior. I feel proud of my heritage without perceiving others' heritages as inferior to mine. I think its weird to feel racial pride, but not inherently racist.

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

most modern science was discovered by whites. The most powerful and wealthy nation on the planet was founded by whites. Einstein, Newton Hawking - all white all advanced our understanding of the universe more than anyone else in their time.

I can come up with dozens of examples. none of it has a whit to do with race though - race was just a coincidence in what they accomplished.

Most modern science should be discovered by whites. They are the ones that own the systems. People from other cultures made scientific discoveries while white people were still living in caves. They didnt do that because of their race. What did whites do that was because of or inspite of them being white? You do realize white people only made those discoveries because they were taught a foundation of knowledge from other cultures right?

 

[emilynghiem]

lol. Nor do I but that was not what I was saying. It is socially acceptable right now even if that acceptance is something you or I would consider wrong. Unfortunately it does not seem that will change anytime soon either.

As long as the blame ****** crowd can convince legislators that those never having owned a slave owe something to those that never were slaves, it won't change.

Those benefitting from affirmative action will say they only want to be judged by their qualifications yet are willing to accept race as being one of those qualifications when the ones they have don't cut it.

Now Conservative65
To be perfectly fair
it is true that because of slavery laws, where many slaves did not own property not even their own bodies which were by law the legal property of others,
whole generations are left 150 behind on the learning curve.

Where not only do they have no understanding or experience with ownership
but inherited RESENTMENT of laws and property as if this is "white man's culture"

So this very thing they are so against
is enslaving them as victims.

I would not blame a rape victim for going through stages of not trusting
men or wanting to be around them because it triggers this emotional response.

It takes SEVERAL generations to heal of this genocide.
Look at Native Americans with drinking and gambling problems.
How much of that was already there and how much was from the oppression
carried down, who knows? Only God knows where this ill will came from.

But the common factor to healing is FORGIVENESS which is a mutual process.
Just pushing blame back and forth
is like tossing the garbage back and forth over the same fence
where neither neighbor is actually getting rid of the problem.

We keep dumping it back in the other neighbor's yard
thinking it's their responsibility to clean it up. And they do the same.
And the garbage goes back and forth without fixing anything!

My family, one of white heritage, didn't come to this country until 1905 from E.Europe. We never owned slaves nor lived here until 40 years after slavery ended.

I wouldn't blame a rape victim for going through those stages. I would have a problem is the descendents of that rape victim blamed descendents of the rapist 150 years later.

The only type of forgiveness many who support AA want is for white people to sit down, shut up, and take the blame inlcuding those of us whose family wasn't here during the time for which they want white people to take the blame. I have nothing for which to ask forgiveness on this matter nor no forgiveness to give.

As for several generations, my first year in school was the first year blacks and whites went to school together at the same school. That was 3 generations back. I am also a former school teacher that quite often heard the "you're only saying that to me because I'm black" excuses.

As long as being white despite my family not being here during slave times means I should be expected to accept AA as a policy, I'll keep dumping the trash back. My family didn't create it nor should any of us be expected to dispose of it.

Hey Conservative
I hear what you are saying.
I agree it is racist to blame "all one group" for the actions of some members.
If the Blacks don't like to be assumed they are all "lazy thugs" who want to blame others,
why is it okay to say all whites owe privileges to the black slaves and not equally to white founders.

But look at the case of when that officer in Portland
said he was Sorry for all the mess that was scaring that poor kid.

Was he apologizing and taking on blame/responsibility for what other people did?
No, but he was generally expressing and sympathizing sorrow and regret that this violence is happening. It IS real, it is IS hurting people and relations on all sides, and it IS scaring kids, parents, and police where they don't know who might end up dead next. Of course, the officer could honestly say he was SORRY for all that, and NO it doesn't mean enabling others or taking on blame that doesn't belong.

The officer actually supports his fellow police,
and that's what makes his outreach to the boy so much more meaningful.

That's what we need, mutual acceptance that the problems are mutual.
It's not about taking on the burden of others and enabling wrongdoing etc.
It's about letting go of the whole situation and quit holding onto resentment and blame that isn't helping.

The same acceptance and forgiveness it takes to get EITHER side to "let go" of saying
the other side is more to blame. When we recognize we are in the boat together,
and nobody's problems aren't shared in one way or another by everyone who has to face similar struggles, but just in different forms.

Nobody's pain and suffering is greater than someone else.
Relative speaking, the greater problems someone may face in one area, the greater rewards
and support they receive compared with someone else. Nobody's situation is going to be exactly like someone else.
Where we make mistakes is trying to compare these and make them the same.
They're not.

Each person needs support to go through their growth including recovery
from whatever setbacks they experience.
==============================================================
BTW in the case of rape or murder, yes there are cases that have been made
to represent a whole group. Like the outcry against OJ Simpson and Pistorius.
People are blaming the justice system for letting richer people buy their way out of crimes,
and yes some people WERE blaming the reactions on RACE.

the common factor is when people "see" a person or issue as "representing" a
whole group, stereotype, whether race religion or political affiliation.
This is a mix of projection, and bad karma between those groups that
needs to be resolved and healed, or else the vicious cycle continues.

The infighting in the Middle East, the division between Jews Christians
and Muslims: how much of that is "conditioning" passed down from one generation to the next?
It's a vicious cycle, and the only way out is forgiveness, forgiving the whole mess
so people can start fresh, work together to repair the wrongs and problems inherited from the past,
and not add any more problems or grief to the pile so it quits growing larger and larger.

When an issue applies to a vast majority of the group, it's no longer a stereotype.

Much of the conditioning of the division between Jews and Muslims is passed down. Both side believe they have a very real claim to the land over which they fight. It's too long of a Biblical lesson. Let's just say it goes all the way back to Abraham, Isaac, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael.

A. Hey, I commend and applaud your more inclusive view of where both the Jews and Muslims lay claim to the land.
That is the start of embracing and treating people as equal, by recognizing where they are coming from.
I WISH more people had this understanding you have, this is so needed, thank you!
==============
B. As for stereotypes, whether they are hurtful are not
can depend on how it is presented.

It can be true that a lot of Black people are known for having large full lips,
but to make fun of this as a negative stereotype is still hurtful.
A stereotype doesn't have to be false, there can be truth to it and it can still be used
to "represent" an entire group in a "stereotypical" way.

What was pointed out by a sociologist was that it makes a difference if a group
affiliation or association is self-chosen, such as a political party, or if it born and not chosen
such as race, gender, or culture one is born into and brought up in. making fun of someone's
CHOICE of politics is fair game compared to making fun of someone's disability, race or gender they didn't choose.

Having a sense of humor about oneself and one's own "group" makes a difference.

If I make jokes about how badly I drive, and can't park straight, as an "Asian stereotype"
that is different than if someone yells out the window at me:
"Hey quit squinting and Open your EYES and drive!"

If my boyfriend says that to me as a joke, that "maybe it would help if I opened my eyes all the way,"
I may laugh, but someone else like my sister may take it as offensive who is outside the situation.

I even discussed with my Goduncle how the LA comedian was taken
two different ways when she imitated the accents of Vietnamese Nail Salon ladies.
I thought it was cute and charming how she captured the sweet lulling way they spoke.

But my Uncle explained that many Vietnamese members of his business association took offense, were quite hurt by what they saw as making fun of the language and accents, and many nail salon owners
protested this comedienne and her video online.

I had to explain to him that the comedian did not mean it in any derogatory way,
but was being charming and the humor was intended that way.

It took him some work to understand the other viewpoint because
he only understood the viewpoint of the people who were offended
and thought the point was making fun of their language.

So this "stereotype" can work both ways, even if the ladies in the
nail salons DO have Vietnamese accents that sound just like that,
it depends how it is used and how it is taken if it becomes hurtful or not.

If people have a connection with each other, it is less likely to come across
as targeting another group. My bf wasn't trying to make a statement about
all Asians, he was just making fun of my personal driving and getting lost all the time.
And yes, to us it is funnier to think this is fulfilling a stereotype.
But to others, they may find it is in poor taste to joke that way,
and many have objected.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

For me the sign is not but the people that paid for the sign most likely are.

 

[Conservative65]

As long as the blame ****** crowd can convince legislators that those never having owned a slave owe something to those that never were slaves, it won't change.

Those benefitting from affirmative action will say they only want to be judged by their qualifications yet are willing to accept race as being one of those qualifications when the ones they have don't cut it.

Now Conservative65
To be perfectly fair
it is true that because of slavery laws, where many slaves did not own property not even their own bodies which were by law the legal property of others,
whole generations are left 150 behind on the learning curve.

Where not only do they have no understanding or experience with ownership
but inherited RESENTMENT of laws and property as if this is "white man's culture"

So this very thing they are so against
is enslaving them as victims.

I would not blame a rape victim for going through stages of not trusting
men or wanting to be around them because it triggers this emotional response.

It takes SEVERAL generations to heal of this genocide.
Look at Native Americans with drinking and gambling problems.
How much of that was already there and how much was from the oppression
carried down, who knows? Only God knows where this ill will came from.

But the common factor to healing is FORGIVENESS which is a mutual process.
Just pushing blame back and forth
is like tossing the garbage back and forth over the same fence
where neither neighbor is actually getting rid of the problem.

We keep dumping it back in the other neighbor's yard
thinking it's their responsibility to clean it up. And they do the same.
And the garbage goes back and forth without fixing anything!

My family, one of white heritage, didn't come to this country until 1905 from E.Europe. We never owned slaves nor lived here until 40 years after slavery ended.

I wouldn't blame a rape victim for going through those stages. I would have a problem is the descendents of that rape victim blamed descendents of the rapist 150 years later.

The only type of forgiveness many who support AA want is for white people to sit down, shut up, and take the blame inlcuding those of us whose family wasn't here during the time for which they want white people to take the blame. I have nothing for which to ask forgiveness on this matter nor no forgiveness to give.

As for several generations, my first year in school was the first year blacks and whites went to school together at the same school. That was 3 generations back. I am also a former school teacher that quite often heard the "you're only saying that to me because I'm black" excuses.

As long as being white despite my family not being here during slave times means I should be expected to accept AA as a policy, I'll keep dumping the trash back. My family didn't create it nor should any of us be expected to dispose of it.

Hey Conservative
I hear what you are saying.
I agree it is racist to blame "all one group" for the actions of some members.
If the Blacks don't like to be assumed they are all "lazy thugs" who want to blame others,
why is it okay to say all whites owe privileges to the black slaves and not equally to white founders.

But look at the case of when that officer in Portland
said he was Sorry for all the mess that was scaring that poor kid.

Was he apologizing and taking on blame/responsibility for what other people did?
No, but he was generally expressing and sympathizing sorrow and regret that this violence is happening. It IS real, it is IS hurting people and relations on all sides, and it IS scaring kids, parents, and police where they don't know who might end up dead next. Of course, the officer could honestly say he was SORRY for all that, and NO it doesn't mean enabling others or taking on blame that doesn't belong.

The officer actually supports his fellow police,
and that's what makes his outreach to the boy so much more meaningful.

That's what we need, mutual acceptance that the problems are mutual.
It's not about taking on the burden of others and enabling wrongdoing etc.
It's about letting go of the whole situation and quit holding onto resentment and blame that isn't helping.

The same acceptance and forgiveness it takes to get EITHER side to "let go" of saying
the other side is more to blame. When we recognize we are in the boat together,
and nobody's problems aren't shared in one way or another by everyone who has to face similar struggles, but just in different forms.

Nobody's pain and suffering is greater than someone else.
Relative speaking, the greater problems someone may face in one area, the greater rewards
and support they receive compared with someone else. Nobody's situation is going to be exactly like someone else.
Where we make mistakes is trying to compare these and make them the same.
They're not.

Each person needs support to go through their growth including recovery
from whatever setbacks they experience.
==============================================================
BTW in the case of rape or murder, yes there are cases that have been made
to represent a whole group. Like the outcry against OJ Simpson and Pistorius.
People are blaming the justice system for letting richer people buy their way out of crimes,
and yes some people WERE blaming the reactions on RACE.

the common factor is when people "see" a person or issue as "representing" a
whole group, stereotype, whether race religion or political affiliation.
This is a mix of projection, and bad karma between those groups that
needs to be resolved and healed, or else the vicious cycle continues.

The infighting in the Middle East, the division between Jews Christians
and Muslims: how much of that is "conditioning" passed down from one generation to the next?
It's a vicious cycle, and the only way out is forgiveness, forgiving the whole mess
so people can start fresh, work together to repair the wrongs and problems inherited from the past,
and not add any more problems or grief to the pile so it quits growing larger and larger.

When an issue applies to a vast majority of the group, it's no longer a stereotype.

Much of the conditioning of the division between Jews and Muslims is passed down. Both side believe they have a very real claim to the land over which they fight. It's too long of a Biblical lesson. Let's just say it goes all the way back to Abraham, Isaac, Sarah, Hagar, and Ishmael.

A. Hey, I commend and applaud your more inclusive view of where both the Jews and Muslims lay claim to the land.
That is the start of embracing and treating people as equal, by recognizing where they are coming from.
I WISH more people had this understanding you have, this is so needed, thank you!
==============
B. As for stereotypes, whether they are hurtful are not
can depend on how it is presented.

It can be true that a lot of Black people are known for having large full lips,
but to make fun of this as a negative stereotype is still hurtful.
A stereotype doesn't have to be false, there can be truth to it and it can still be used
to "represent" an entire group in a "stereotypical" way.

What was pointed out by a sociologist was that it makes a difference if a group
affiliation or association is self-chosen, such as a political party, or if it born and not chosen
such as race, gender, or culture one is born into and brought up in. making fun of someone's
CHOICE of politics is fair game compared to making fun of someone's disability, race or gender they didn't choose.

Having a sense of humor about oneself and one's own "group" makes a difference.

If I make jokes about how badly I drive, and can't park straight, as an "Asian stereotype"
that is different than if someone yells out the window at me:
"Hey quit squinting and Open your EYES and drive!"

If my boyfriend says that to me as a joke, that "maybe it would help if I opened my eyes all the way,"
I may laugh, but someone else like my sister may take it as offensive who is outside the situation.

I even discussed with my Goduncle how the LA comedian was taken
two different ways when she imitated the accents of Vietnamese Nail Salon ladies.
I thought it was cute and charming how she captured the sweet lulling way they spoke.

But my Uncle explained that many Vietnamese members of his business association took offense, were quite hurt by what they saw as making fun of the language and accents, and many nail salon owners
protested this comedienne and her video online.

I had to explain to him that the comedian did not mean it in any derogatory way,
but was being charming and the humor was intended that way.

It took him some work to understand the other viewpoint because
he only understood the viewpoint of the people who were offended
and thought the point was making fun of their language.

So this "stereotype" can work both ways, even if the ladies in the
nail salons DO have Vietnamese accents that sound just like that,
it depends how it is used and how it is taken if it becomes hurtful or not.

If people have a connection with each other, it is less likely to come across
as targeting another group. My bf wasn't trying to make a statement about
all Asians, he was just making fun of my personal driving and getting lost all the time.
And yes, to us it is funnier to think this is fulfilling a stereotype.
But to others, they may find it is in poor taste to joke that way,
and many have objected.

I didn't say I agreed with the Muslim claim. I said they had one in their beliefs.

Since you used blacks as an example, so will I. I don't focus on things like that. However, I've made the statement that a black child has a greater liklihood of being illegitimate than not, using the correct term of bastard, only to be called racist. When over 70% meet that, it's not a stereotype.

 

[emilynghiem]

Oh, the code isn't secret. The words "white pride" may literally mean proud of the white race, but what it really means is other races are inferior to the white race. You can pretend that isn't it's meaning, but...

Its not secrete code - it is plain English and is still racist.

I think your standards are too strict. I see nothing wrong in feeling pride in your race as long as you Long as you don't believe that other races are inferior. I feel proud of my heritage without perceiving others' heritages as inferior to mine. I think its weird to feel racial pride, but not inherently racist.

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

Jefferson wrote down principles in the Declaration of Independence in English,
which is the language we use today to reach agreement on democratic principles,
where two the most credited sources of the politics we use today being
* Rousseau who is identified with the Radical Liberalism carried on by Liberals today
* Locke who is identified with the Classic Liberalism carried on by Conservatives today
Both being European or White.

The Declaration of Independence is the only founding document that specifically
cites "consent of the governed" as the source of authority for civil governance.

I see this as a spiritual process by which the Natural Laws given by God
were made Statutory in Writing by the Founding Fathers who drew up
the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other historical arguments defending
and defining checks and balances and separation of power to structure
a govt and democratic process through which Equal Justice could eventually be realized.

So this spirit of these laws, coming from God, were given to the world
through our Founding Fathers using European terms and English language
that we could use to hash out the rest of our process of fulfilling democratic
principles of self-government, left to future generations to work out as we evolved.

This linear process of reforming laws in writing, through a system of govt
that is designed to check itself, including protecting free speech and free press
as a check on govt, is something we inherited from our European and American
ancestors.

And yes, the structure is designed to incorporate change and reform when used correctly.

So ALL cultures, all religions, all groups can exercise free speech, free press, right to
petition and due process of law to improve upon what we have, and take it to the next level
of social and political development by civil/democratic means.

 

[Asclepias]

Its not secrete code - it is plain English and is still racist.

I think your standards are too strict. I see nothing wrong in feeling pride in your race as long as you Long as you don't believe that other races are inferior. I feel proud of my heritage without perceiving others' heritages as inferior to mine. I think its weird to feel racial pride, but not inherently racist.

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

Jefferson wrote down principles in the Declaration of Independence in English,
which is the language we use today to reach agreement on democratic principles,
where two the most credited sources of the politics we use today being
* Rousseau who is identified with the Radical Liberalism carried on by Liberals today
* Locke who is identified with the Classic Liberalism carried on by Conservatives today
Both being European or White.

The Declaration of Independence is the only founding document that specifically
cites "consent of the governed" as the source of authority for civil governance.

I see this as a spiritual process by which the Natural Laws given by God
were made Statutory in Writing by the Founding Fathers who drew up
the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other historical arguments defending
and defining checks and balances and separation of power to structure
a govt and democratic process through which Equal Justice could eventually be realized.

So this spirit of these laws, coming from God, were given to the world
through our Founding Fathers using European terms and English language
that we could use to hash out the rest of our process of fulfilling democratic
principles of self-government, left to future generations to work out as we evolved.

This linear process of reforming laws in writing, through a system of govt
that is designed to check itself, including protecting free speech and free press
as a check on govt, is something we inherited from our European and American
ancestors.

And yes, the structure is designed to incorporate change and reform when used correctly.

So ALL cultures, all religions, all groups can exercise free speech, free press, right to
petition and due process of law to improve upon what we have, and take it to the next level
of social and political development by civil/democratic means.

I dont get why Jefferson being white enabled him to write down something? People from ever race have written laws down. There is nothing unique about these laws.He was espousing an ideology. He didnt dream up this ideology because he was white. Now add to this that he was a hypocrite regarding these same laws. What have whites done that is specifically something only whites have done and have reason to be proud of?

 

[emilynghiem]

I didn't say I agreed with the Muslim claim. I said they had one in their beliefs.

Yes I understand you were just saying both sides have their respective belief. This does not require you to agree with it,
and I thought it was clear theirs is not your belief.

What I mean is that most people will not even acknowledge there is a reason for their beliefs and claim to the land, unless they agree. So that's why I found this exceptional, that even when it doesn't serve your purpose, and you may not agree at all,
you are educated enough on the history to understand where that is coming from. I wish more people had that knowledge!

You are likely more level headed about this issue, because you have a broader scope on the history, while others get more emotional and angry who don't understand where the claim comes from, but thinks they are just making it up to justify war.

Since you used blacks as an example, so will I. I don't focus on things like that. However, I've made the statement that a black child has a greater liklihood of being illegitimate than not, using the correct term of bastard, only to be called racist. When over 70% meet that, it's not a stereotype.

Well, I disagree. Even if it applies, it can still be a stereotype.

Another example, is saying that women tend to be conditioned, either socially or spiritually, to
see things "relatively" in terms of "relationships with others" while men tend to compartmentalize
and divide things in terms of "autonomy" as to what is their space, their responsibility, and what belongs to someone else?

Science will show that women's brains operate different from men's.
So there is truth to the "stereotype" that women are more emotionally expressive in certain ways than men are.
(Actually I've pointed out that women are allowed or expected to cry, but not be angry without being called names for that, and men are allowed or expected to be angry, but not allowed to cry without being called names for that; so the social expectations are different but both are emotions.)

However to look at women in a negative way, based on this "stereotype" ends up causing more problems than it solves.

So I find it depends how the "stereotype" is used, that makes it helpful or hurtful.

If you know a large number of Black people don't have the same
experience and knowledge of land ownership and business management,
you can either use this to BLAME Blacks and liberals for "keeping people poor and dependent"
or you can use this to PROMOTE programs such as microlending and business training
among the poor minorities, whether Black, Latino, women, etc.

Obama even pointed this out, that although reparations couldn't be done logistically at this point literally,
by focusing on uplifting the poor through education, then of course the Blacks would naturally get the
support they need as the reparations they ask for. Just by helping all the poor break the cycle of poverty.

I agree that indirectly this would cover the needs of Blacks who were affected over generations by slavery and its repercussions. if we sought reparations or restitution for all wrongs, then we would cover all the bases and factors.

 

[emilynghiem]

I think your standards are too strict. I see nothing wrong in feeling pride in your race as long as you Long as you don't believe that other races are inferior. I feel proud of my heritage without perceiving others' heritages as inferior to mine. I think its weird to feel racial pride, but not inherently racist.

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

Jefferson wrote down principles in the Declaration of Independence in English,
which is the language we use today to reach agreement on democratic principles,
where two the most credited sources of the politics we use today being
* Rousseau who is identified with the Radical Liberalism carried on by Liberals today
* Locke who is identified with the Classic Liberalism carried on by Conservatives today
Both being European or White.

The Declaration of Independence is the only founding document that specifically
cites "consent of the governed" as the source of authority for civil governance.

I see this as a spiritual process by which the Natural Laws given by God
were made Statutory in Writing by the Founding Fathers who drew up
the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other historical arguments defending
and defining checks and balances and separation of power to structure
a govt and democratic process through which Equal Justice could eventually be realized.

So this spirit of these laws, coming from God, were given to the world
through our Founding Fathers using European terms and English language
that we could use to hash out the rest of our process of fulfilling democratic
principles of self-government, left to future generations to work out as we evolved.

This linear process of reforming laws in writing, through a system of govt
that is designed to check itself, including protecting free speech and free press
as a check on govt, is something we inherited from our European and American
ancestors.

And yes, the structure is designed to incorporate change and reform when used correctly.

So ALL cultures, all religions, all groups can exercise free speech, free press, right to
petition and due process of law to improve upon what we have, and take it to the next level
of social and political development by civil/democratic means.

I dont get why Jefferson being white enabled him to write down something? People from ever race have written laws down. There is nothing unique about these laws.He was espousing an ideology. He didnt dream up this ideology because he was white. Now add to this that he was a hypocrite regarding these same laws. What have whites done that is specifically something only whites have done and have reason to be proud of?

He rose to the position he was in from his spiritual, cultural and social background and lineage.
Being White or European is part of that heritage.
You can't take that factor out of the equation and have the same person.

We are a mix of all the things that make up our spiritual DNA.
It's how we use it that defines us and our path in life.

I tend to focus on Jefferson because I feel I have also inherited
karma spiritually from either Jefferson or other Founding Fathers.
I have this weird Constitutional thread running through the fibre of my being.

I could trace some of my political poetry to my father's father who was
a law professor and political poet in Vietnam. But the part of me that
rails on and on about Constitutional equal inclusion and whatnot,
I would like to trace this back to Jefferson or wherever it came from.

I probably have as much karma with the Christian church as much as I go on and on about that.

So I understand what you mean, that some of this can be independent of race,
it can be more cultural and personal/spiritual and not tied directly to physical race.

But in Jefferson's case, can you really argue that he could not have risen to power
as President and Secretary of State without being White at that time. For his writings to be preserved as part of this nation's history, as one of the Founding Fathers. How much of that was because they were respected and IDENTIFIED WITH as white male leaders and property owners seen fit for government?

If that is the role Jefferson needed to play, and the image he needed to represent to get
certain jobs done, then God would incarnate him as White, Deist, male etc.

Just like to get other things done, I am incarnated as Asian American female
both a Democrat and Constitutionalist. English speaking only. Born and living in Texas.

All of this is part of who I am in order to meet my purpose in life.

Same with you, same with Jefferson, Buddha or Einstein.
The little old lady across the street from me, or the young
black boy adopted and made famous by his hug with a white police officer.

All those factors make up part of the story.
To me it is spiritual first, and then it manifests in these different ways.
Fascinating, really.

 

[Asclepias]

His standards are his alone to deal with. I have no problem with people having racial pride. I am just asking what do whites have to be proud of due to being white. No one can seem to give me an answer on that.

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

Jefferson wrote down principles in the Declaration of Independence in English,
which is the language we use today to reach agreement on democratic principles,
where two the most credited sources of the politics we use today being
* Rousseau who is identified with the Radical Liberalism carried on by Liberals today
* Locke who is identified with the Classic Liberalism carried on by Conservatives today
Both being European or White.

The Declaration of Independence is the only founding document that specifically
cites "consent of the governed" as the source of authority for civil governance.

I see this as a spiritual process by which the Natural Laws given by God
were made Statutory in Writing by the Founding Fathers who drew up
the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other historical arguments defending
and defining checks and balances and separation of power to structure
a govt and democratic process through which Equal Justice could eventually be realized.

So this spirit of these laws, coming from God, were given to the world
through our Founding Fathers using European terms and English language
that we could use to hash out the rest of our process of fulfilling democratic
principles of self-government, left to future generations to work out as we evolved.

This linear process of reforming laws in writing, through a system of govt
that is designed to check itself, including protecting free speech and free press
as a check on govt, is something we inherited from our European and American
ancestors.

And yes, the structure is designed to incorporate change and reform when used correctly.

So ALL cultures, all religions, all groups can exercise free speech, free press, right to
petition and due process of law to improve upon what we have, and take it to the next level
of social and political development by civil/democratic means.

I dont get why Jefferson being white enabled him to write down something? People from ever race have written laws down. There is nothing unique about these laws.He was espousing an ideology. He didnt dream up this ideology because he was white. Now add to this that he was a hypocrite regarding these same laws. What have whites done that is specifically something only whites have done and have reason to be proud of?

He rose to the position he was in from his spiritual, cultural and social background and lineage.
Being White or European is part of that heritage.
You can't take that factor out of the equation and have the same person.

We are a mix of all the things that make up our spiritual DNA.
It's how we use it that defines us and our path in life.

I tend to focus on Jefferson because I feel I have also inherited
karma spiritually from either Jefferson or other Founding Fathers.
I have this weird Constitutional thread running through the fibre of my being.

I could trace some of my political poetry to my father's father who was
a law professor and political poet in Vietnam. But the part of me that
rails on and on about Constitutional equal inclusion and whatnot,
I would like to trace this back to Jefferson or wherever it came from.

I probably have as much karma with the Christian church as much as I go on and on about that.

So I understand what you mean, that some of this can be independent of race.
But in Jefferson's case, can you really argue that he would not have risen to power
as President and Secretary of State without being White at that time.

If that is the role he needed to play, and the image he needed to represent to get
certain jobs done, then God would incarnate him as White, Deist, male etc.

Just like to get other things done, I am incarnated as Asian American female
both a Democrat and Constitutionalist. English speaking only. Born and living in Texas.

All of this is part of who I am in order to meet my purpose in life.

Same with you, same with Jefferson, Buddha or Einstein.
The little old lady across the street from me, or the young
black boy adopted and made famous by his hug with a white police officer.

All those factors make up part of the story.
To me it is spiritual first, and then it manifests in these different ways.
Fascinating, really.

Has nothing to do with him being white though. There has been royalty of every race that rose to greatness from poverty. The disconnect for whites seems to be in believing a man who said the following is a great man and have a hard time seeing him for what he was.

"I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind. … This unfortunate difference of colour, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people."
-Thomas Jefferson

This is the same guy that said Black people smell bad but it must not have been that bad since he had sex with his slaves.

 

[emilynghiem]

I gave you examples.
if you can say Dr. King, Tutu and Mandela are Black leaders to be proud of
you can say that Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln are White leaders to be proud of.

The Natural laws that were written down and established in writing by the Constitutional founders
could be credited to the White Americans of European descendants if you want to identify them by race.

These laws came from God, from Nature, not White men
and as you pointed out, some of the criticial govt ideas were influenced by Native Americans
who had tribal structures.

But if you are going to identify the Founding Fathers as White,
you can give as much credit for the good side as you can blame them for the genocide and bad side of
setting up America as it was back then to grow to a better place where equal justice could later be realized.

It looks to me like it takes equal contribution of ALL people from ALL races, nations, religions and ethnic cultures
to put the best ideas together for society to mature to its maximum ideal state.

I don't see any need to demonize one group or another which doesn't help but just distracts with division and ill will.

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. What did they do that was honorable that had anything to do with them being white?

Jefferson wrote down principles in the Declaration of Independence in English,
which is the language we use today to reach agreement on democratic principles,
where two the most credited sources of the politics we use today being
* Rousseau who is identified with the Radical Liberalism carried on by Liberals today
* Locke who is identified with the Classic Liberalism carried on by Conservatives today
Both being European or White.

The Declaration of Independence is the only founding document that specifically
cites "consent of the governed" as the source of authority for civil governance.

I see this as a spiritual process by which the Natural Laws given by God
were made Statutory in Writing by the Founding Fathers who drew up
the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other historical arguments defending
and defining checks and balances and separation of power to structure
a govt and democratic process through which Equal Justice could eventually be realized.

So this spirit of these laws, coming from God, were given to the world
through our Founding Fathers using European terms and English language
that we could use to hash out the rest of our process of fulfilling democratic
principles of self-government, left to future generations to work out as we evolved.

This linear process of reforming laws in writing, through a system of govt
that is designed to check itself, including protecting free speech and free press
as a check on govt, is something we inherited from our European and American
ancestors.

And yes, the structure is designed to incorporate change and reform when used correctly.

So ALL cultures, all religions, all groups can exercise free speech, free press, right to
petition and due process of law to improve upon what we have, and take it to the next level
of social and political development by civil/democratic means.

I dont get why Jefferson being white enabled him to write down something? People from ever race have written laws down. There is nothing unique about these laws.He was espousing an ideology. He didnt dream up this ideology because he was white. Now add to this that he was a hypocrite regarding these same laws. What have whites done that is specifically something only whites have done and have reason to be proud of?

He rose to the position he was in from his spiritual, cultural and social background and lineage.
Being White or European is part of that heritage.
You can't take that factor out of the equation and have the same person.

We are a mix of all the things that make up our spiritual DNA.
It's how we use it that defines us and our path in life.

I tend to focus on Jefferson because I feel I have also inherited
karma spiritually from either Jefferson or other Founding Fathers.
I have this weird Constitutional thread running through the fibre of my being.

I could trace some of my political poetry to my father's father who was
a law professor and political poet in Vietnam. But the part of me that
rails on and on about Constitutional equal inclusion and whatnot,
I would like to trace this back to Jefferson or wherever it came from.

I probably have as much karma with the Christian church as much as I go on and on about that.

So I understand what you mean, that some of this can be independent of race.
But in Jefferson's case, can you really argue that he would not have risen to power
as President and Secretary of State without being White at that time.

If that is the role he needed to play, and the image he needed to represent to get
certain jobs done, then God would incarnate him as White, Deist, male etc.

Just like to get other things done, I am incarnated as Asian American female
both a Democrat and Constitutionalist. English speaking only. Born and living in Texas.

All of this is part of who I am in order to meet my purpose in life.

Same with you, same with Jefferson, Buddha or Einstein.
The little old lady across the street from me, or the young
black boy adopted and made famous by his hug with a white police officer.

All those factors make up part of the story.
To me it is spiritual first, and then it manifests in these different ways.
Fascinating, really.

Has nothing to do with him being white though. There has been royalty of every race that rose to greatness from poverty. The disconnect for whites seems to be in believing a man who said the following is a great man and have a hard time seeing him for what he was.

"I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind. … This unfortunate difference of colour, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people."
-Thomas Jefferson

This is the same guy that said Black people smell bad but it must not have been that bad since he had sex with his slaves.

A. You can see both the good and the bad without denying one or the other.
Are you trying to deny the good, and yet criticize people for denying the bad?

Someone pointed out bad things about Dr. King.

Someone criticized Jesus for causing a tree to wither and die just to show off his power,
and for what he said to a woman, the only person BTW recorded in the Bible as talking back to Jesus where he accepted her answer.

From what I understand, Buddha at first did not want women in the fold, and had to be argued and talked into it.

People make fun of Einstein all the time, point to negative things about him.

Are you going to justify pulling people down just because you don't think they should be pulled up?

Why not credit both the good and the bad, and not fight over which is more predominant?

As for Jefferson and his views of slavery, I think he foresaw that slaves were not in a position
to merge into society at an equal level, and he argued for returning them to Africa and/or gradual abolition.

Given the mess we are still facing from not providing means of equal ownership of land and businesses,
I think he was right that we were not prepared to bring everyone up to equality.

i don't agree with his solution of forced deportation of slaves back to Africa, but I do believe people should have free and equal choice to colonize and claim equal land ownership
where they can develop to self-government as equals, and not be forever under the lordship of others.

B. I disagree that the same things could have happened if
Jefferson and the Founding Fathers weren't White.

You would be talking about a different time and place.

Just like Mandela and Tutu were able to lead the people in Africa because they are black. White men could not have achieved that same unity in that context at that time.

I'm not saying White or Black or superior or inferior.
I'm saying that to lead in certain circumstances, the people they needed to
identify with were of a particular race for a reason.

All cultures and generations need to go through stages of development,
so how the Native Americans evolve in their spiritual and cultural lineage
and how the Blacks and Whites and Asians etc. do
is part of the bigger picture. We do identify by race as part of our identity,
so that is a factor. It doesn't make one better than the other, just different.

 

[Moonglow]

KKK Billboard Causes Stir - Ozarksfirst

Considering this place is about 60 miles to the west, it's not unusual to see this...

 

[MaryL]

No other white group would dare or care to put out such a message, given the history of this country. Even though whites secretly feel pride in their race, we don't advertise it, it seems tacky. Blacks on the other hand, don't pull any punches and racist black hustlers hide behind race and exploit it to no end, like Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton. Racist black demagogues can get away with this stuff....Time we called out all these jerks and shut them down.

 

[Conservative65]

I didn't say I agreed with the Muslim claim. I said they had one in their beliefs.

Yes I understand you were just saying both sides have their respective belief. This does not require you to agree with it,
and I thought it was clear theirs is not your belief.

What I mean is that most people will not even acknowledge there is a reason for their beliefs and claim to the land, unless they agree. So that's why I found this exceptional, that even when it doesn't serve your purpose, and you may not agree at all,
you are educated enough on the history to understand where that is coming from. I wish more people had that knowledge!

You are likely more level headed about this issue, because you have a broader scope on the history, while others get more emotional and angry who don't understand where the claim comes from, but thinks they are just making it up to justify war.

Since you used blacks as an example, so will I. I don't focus on things like that. However, I've made the statement that a black child has a greater liklihood of being illegitimate than not, using the correct term of bastard, only to be called racist. When over 70% meet that, it's not a stereotype.

Well, I disagree. Even if it applies, it can still be a stereotype.

Another example, is saying that women tend to be conditioned, either socially or spiritually, to
see things "relatively" in terms of "relationships with others" while men tend to compartmentalize
and divide things in terms of "autonomy" as to what is their space, their responsibility, and what belongs to someone else?

Science will show that women's brains operate different from men's.
So there is truth to the "stereotype" that women are more emotionally expressive in certain ways than men are.
(Actually I've pointed out that women are allowed or expected to cry, but not be angry without being called names for that, and men are allowed or expected to be angry, but not allowed to cry without being called names for that; so the social expectations are different but both are emotions.)

However to look at women in a negative way, based on this "stereotype" ends up causing more problems than it solves.

So I find it depends how the "stereotype" is used, that makes it helpful or hurtful.

If you know a large number of Black people don't have the same
experience and knowledge of land ownership and business management,
you can either use this to BLAME Blacks and liberals for "keeping people poor and dependent"
or you can use this to PROMOTE programs such as microlending and business training
among the poor minorities, whether Black, Latino, women, etc.

Obama even pointed this out, that although reparations couldn't be done logistically at this point literally,
by focusing on uplifting the poor through education, then of course the Blacks would naturally get the
support they need as the reparations they ask for. Just by helping all the poor break the cycle of poverty.

I agree that indirectly this would cover the needs of Blacks who were affected over generations by slavery and its repercussions. if we sought reparations or restitution for all wrongs, then we would cover all the bases and factors.

I fully understand both historically and Biblically why both sides stake a claim. Because of my religious beliefs, I side with the Jews. I also understand, because of religious beliefs, why Muslims disagree.

When it applies to such a large number, it's no longer a stereotype. Stereotypes are oversimplified images. In other words, they are something that apply to a small number but attributed to the whole. The illegitmate birth rate isn't a small number.