Is this country really what our founding fathers dreamed of?

[Cousin Vinnie]

Is this country really what our founding fathers dreamed of, or is it going down the tubes like all countries do after so long?

 

[Avatar4321]

I think FDR Seriously changed the nation from the one the founders dreamed of. Not that all what FDR did was bad, but when the point of the government was to keep it out of peoples lives and people propose ways to put it into peoples lives then we have some conflicts.

I know they didnt dream of judges overriding the votes of the majority or mayors violating state laws created directly by the people to be violated to impose the will of a minority on the majority.

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Well, crime is a biggie that we could do without. If there was no crime, this would be a Utopia.

True equality between those with different financial statuses is another. How did we let the gap between the upper and lower class become so wide. How is it that movie stars, singers, sports figures, etc. are allowed to make so much money when the average, hard-working American, that must earn every cent they make, are screwed?

The debate over the races is another one. Whites are still held accountable for black short-comings. The time when the speccial treatment of blacks should have expired has come and gone many years ago. If we strive for true equality, then why don't we have it yet?

America has become to much a symbol of freedom and peace that we need to constantly step in other countries' business. Take Haiti for example. They need to sort things out themselves. Why do we need to be there to hold their hand?

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
Well, crime is a biggie that we could do without. If there was no crime, this would be a Utopia.

That's the price of a free society. Crime was relatively non-existent in the Soviet Union and I wouldn't have called that a utopia. Liberty is more important than equality.

True equality between those with different financial statuses is another. How did we let the gap between the upper and lower class become so wide.

That's the price of post-Industrial Revolution capitalism . These things have made us all richer and more powerful as a country with respect to the rest of the world. Liberty is more important than equality.

Take Haiti for example. They need to sort things out themselves. Why do we need to be there to hold their hand?

We don't need to. We want to; at least some of us do. Thankfully I doubt this administration will be sending 20,000 soldiers there to install a despot. Afterall, who would do that?

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
I think FDR Seriously changed the nation from the one the founders dreamed of. Not that all what FDR did was bad, but when the point of the government was to keep it out of peoples lives and people propose ways to put it into peoples lives then we have some conflicts.

I know they didnt dream of judges overriding the votes of the majority or mayors violating state laws created directly by the people to be violated to impose the will of a minority on the majority.

I beg to differ. What FDR did was appalling. He opened the floodgates of the welfare state. The New Deal changed America for the worse. It replaced individual responsibility with need. And we can see the result.

 

[tim_duncan2000]

Crime was relatively non-existent in the Soviet Union and I wouldn't have called that a utopia.

Except for crimes committed by the state.

 

[Avatar4321]

"I beg to differ. What FDR did was appalling. He opened the floodgates of the welfare state. The New Deal changed America for the worse. It replaced individual responsibility with need. And we can see the result."

I agree for the most part. The things I think FDR did right was start up the American war machine to stop Germany and Japan.

 

[wonderwench]

Absolutely - stopping Germany and Japan was right and necessary, just as stopping Radical Islamic Terrorism is right and necessary today.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
Is this country really what our founding fathers dreamed of, or is it going down the tubes like all countries do after so long?

No, it's not at all what our founding fathers dreamed of. The amount of laziness, disrespect and complete failure of responsibility- the size, cost and power of the federal government. They were all anathema to the founding fathers.

However, it's still the best country on earth:

- even if I don't agree with everyone on everything, at least I'm not killed for my opinion
- Anyone who wants work can have it
- Anyone who wants to get an education has access
- We can kick butt on anyone who threatens us
- yet we can also be civilized and helpful even to our enemies
- We forgive those who've wronged us

 

[conservative86]

Who could have ever thought that when our Founding Fathers sat down 200 years ago they meant for "freedom of expression" to entail pornography? Insane, you say. The ACLU doesn't think so. It is so depressing to see all the liberal slants put on every part of the constitution. I believe I have come to the point where I am ashamed to be an American.

 

[AtlantaWalter]

What you said concerning the gap in financial status is true and it is because Americans are stupid!!!

"True equality between those with different financial statuses is another. How did we let the gap between the upper and lower class become so wide. How is it that movie stars, singers, sports figures, etc. are allowed to make so much money when the average, hard-working American, that must earn every cent they make, are screwed?" (quote Cousin Vinnie)

Look where we allow our priorities to be:
Sports,
A 30-second commercial costs $2.1 million for Super Bowl XXXVII.
and TV/entertainment,
The Friends cast emerged from their salary battle with deals for a reported $1.2 million an episode — each. Romano won a $1.8 million per episode deal.

Why do we pay over $1.50-$2 for a gallon of gas when... In the final quarter of 2002, Exxon increased its profits by 53 per cent
to US$4.09 billion. FOUR BILLION!!!!!

Companies/sports teams pay outrageous amounts for salaries or commercials, which is a tax deduction for them, and pass the cost on to consumers. What would it cost to go to a ball game if the players weren't making millions of dollars? How much would a coke cost me if Coca-Cola didn't pay 2.1 million for one 30 second commercial? What would the sponors of "Everyone Loves Raymond" be able to lower their prices if they didn't have to pay Raymond 1.8 million an episode? Do they really think I go out and buy their product solely because I saw it on TV?

Yet, the American consumer continues to pay exorbitant prices for goods/entertainment because they are blind to the fact that they are being ripped off.

The people who impact our lives and whom we count on to protect us or save us get paid squat. The median family income for the year 2000 was $51,800; Raymond makes the same amount for one week's work that 34 average families make in one year.

$41,575 was the average teachers salary across the US for 1999-2000.

With base salary, average overtime and night shift differential, holiday pay, and
uniform allowance, a Police Officer earns over $44,000, on average.

The average nurse in the United States makes $45,000 a year; the average fireman, $33,000. Yet the lowest-paid Major League Baseball player makes $300,000 per year, with many pro athletes signing contracts for 10 to 20 times that sum.

Why can not the consumer get his priorities in order and tell these companies that "We are not going to pay these prices any more"?

America is going down the tubes because its' citizens don't care, apathy and ignorance, not some foreign power, will kill the good old U.S. of A.

And, if it's not bad enough that we, as consumers, don't mind getting ripped off, we also let our fellow citizens dip into our pocketbooks. Think how much more money we would have if the government didn't foment the welfare state. Like Wonderwench said " What FDR did was appalling. He opened the floodgates of the welfare state. The New Deal changed America for the worse. It replaced individual responsibility with need. And we can see the result."

Americans today are fatter, lazier, our kids are dumber, and more people today want something for nothing than ever before in our country's history. We are, for the most part, content with medocrity, and that is where our country shall end up. We will, sometime in the future, become a has-been super-power, populated by welfare seeking citizens, and a country which the Founding Fathers would never have dreamed that their fight for freedom could have produced.

America has seen her best days and they are to be no more.

 

[Comrade]

Income tax, sales tax, corporate tax, it's all changed our government so profoundly I'm thinking the founders would probably realize the bloodsucking monster cannot stop growing.

I can almost picture them in wigs and finery trying to tip a container of Starbucks coffee overboard and into the San Fransisco bay

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by AtlantaWalter
What you said concerning the gap in financial status is true and it is because Americans are stupid!!!


Uhuh...

"True equality between those with different financial statuses is another. How did we let the gap between the upper and lower class become so wide. How is it that movie stars, singers, sports figures, etc. are allowed to make so much money when the average, hard-working American, that must earn every cent they make, are screwed?" (quote Cousin Vinnie)

That's not fair that the free market can do that to us poor 'mericans.

Look where we allow our priorities to be:
Sports,
A 30-second commercial costs $2.1 million for Super Bowl XXXVII.
and TV/entertainment,
The Friends cast emerged from their salary battle with deals for a reported $1.2 million an episode — each. Romano won a $1.8 Z

Stupid American stop watching the TV! Stupid corporations why are you trying to outbid each other? Set the price at $10 and all our people can advertise nationally. Just get in line and in in perhaps 20 years your be on national tv!

Why do we pay over $1.50-$2 for a gallon of gas when... In the final quarter of 2002, Exxon increased its profits by 53 per cent
to US$4.09 billion. FOUR BILLION!!!!!

Profits!?! Don't tell me they are making profits!!!! Where is Comrade Zhukov! Convene the council and let's us smash the corporations robbing us with profits! This is an outrage!

Companies/sports teams pay outrageous amounts for salaries or commercials, which is a tax deduction for them, and pass the cost on to consumers. What would it cost to go to a ball game if the players weren't making millions of dollars? How much would a coke cost me if Coca-Cola didn't pay 2.1 million for one 30 second commercial? What would the sponors of "Everyone Loves Raymond" be able to lower their prices if they didn't have to pay Raymond 1.8 million an episode? Do they really think I go out and buy their product solely because I saw it on TV?

I remember this stupid vending machine who tried to charge me a dollar for a Coke and I was so outraged I shook the machine until 10 Cokes fell out for FREE! But I think a nickle is fair don't you? Before TV Cokes were nickel and that's a fair price I say. Make it so!

Yet, the American consumer continues to pay exorbitant prices for goods/entertainment because they are blind to the fact that they are being ripped off.

Not me, I shook that machine real good until I got the cokes I wanted for my price. I won't bargain!

The people who impact our lives and whom we count on to protect us or save us get paid squat. The median family income for the year 2000 was $51,800; Raymond makes the same amount for one week's work that 34 average families make in one year.

I have an idea, though, this rich guy Raymond we just make him pay for the people who protect him. And if he doesn't pay us for our jobs who knows what will happen to him w/o protection, hehe.

Why can not the consumer get his priorities in order and tell these companies that "We are not going to pay these prices any more"?

Cause they leech off us and we should stop protecting free. Bad things can happen if the protection decides to stop, right? Stupid rich companies who do they think they are?

America is going down the tubes because its' citizens don't care, apathy and ignorance, not some foreign power, will kill the good old U.S. of A.

Now you're talking. Why don't we take over this shithole?

And, if it's not bad enough that we, as consumers, don't mind
....
Americans today are fatter, lazier, our kids are dumber,

Once we get the corporations in line we can start rationing food and use everything as a reward to our followers. About the kids we could build camps and force families to live collectives to learn from our teachers. If they won't learn we stop the food.

and more people today want something for nothing than ever before in our country's history.

Cokes for a nickle, that's all I'm saying. I don't want it free unless they try to rip me off for more. Then we shake the machine!

We are, for the most part, content with medocrity, and that is where our country shall end up. We will, sometime in the future, become a has-been super-power, populated by welfare seeking citizens, and a country which the Founding Fathers would never have dreamed that their fight for freedom could have produced.

America has seen her best days and they are to be no more. [/B]

I was all set for the revolution and now it's to late. I'm so depressed I'm going to order a pizza and watch the tube. And it better not be over $20.

 

[Moi]

Jeez, Atlanta. Are you really that overwhelmed??? This country can come back. If the majority in this country became more active instead of sitting back and letting special interests run everything there could be a lot of change. Voting with your pocketbook would help too. Voicing your opinions to the corporations and special interest groups.

If nothing else, doing what you can- win or lose- would greatly improve your psyche.

I don't believe in god or the afterlife, but I do believe that eventually good things come your way if you walk with clean hands. I can still look myself in the mirror every morning. And, the good news is that I woke up to see myself in the morning- can't ask for more than that!

 

[AtlantaWalter]

"If the majority in this country became more active instead of sitting back " (quote Moi)

Therein lies the problem; people are content to accept mediocrity as long as they have their 6-pack and a game to watch. They do not think about what their lack of attention to what is happening is going to end up doing down the when their children have it dumped on them.

And, to all of those who are content to let others decide their fate for them, I say:

 

[William Joyce]

No, what we have today is not what the founding fathers envisioned, though they did have differing visions amongst themselves. Read the Federalist Papers to see what they REALLY thought about "diversity" (no good). From my perspective, this country was chugging along nicely, and even able to absorb the destruction of the fratricidal Civil War and the freeing of black slaves. Then, we were two nations, black and white, co-existing with some tension, but it was settled. FDR did set us on a destruction path by shredding the Constitution and opening the welfare floodgates, but we could have absorbed even THAT had it not been for one, maybe two, major events:

1) The opening of the immigration floodgates in 1965, which saw the U.S. inundated with hordes of third-worlders who are today displacing the white population, and in time will overtake them. Maybe you think this is "wonderful," maybe you don't. But I can guarantee you that whatever nation Mexicans make, it will NOT BE THE AMERICA WE KNEW. No common law, no white picket fences, no safe streets. Goodbye.

2) Civil Rights, so-called. This made for an impossible agitation: the idea that all races can co-exist peacefully in a nation, when they are in fact set against each other. But, they cannot.

Teddy Roosevelt warned that one sure way to destroy a country was to make it a mass of squabbling nationalities. He was right.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by AtlantaWalter
"If the majority in this country became more active instead of sitting back " (quote Moi)

Therein lies the problem; people are content to accept mediocrity as long as they have their 6-pack and a game to watch. They do not think about what their lack of attention to what is happening is going to end up doing down the when their children have it dumped on them.

And, to all of those who are content to let others decide their fate for them, I say:

I know I it was hard to see me serious but it's as if the solutions you offer are direct contradicition to the concept of freedom. They are simply arguments for communist tyranny.

EXACTLY WHY is a baseball ticket $50 and who is at fault for paying a player so much? The baseball ticket should not be $10, not $100, it will be what it is because someone who owns their own league and runs a grounds and has to be responsible for their own business, actually many someones all a part, found that $50 is great or because it fills the stadium just to the top and any others wanting a seat for $50 got it. Incidentally is great for every buyer in that stadium because that seat and this game was worth at least $50. If you hire a person who thrills people with excellence people will fight for seats and now maybe ones stadium you now fills at $60. Knowing the player is going to bargain for the extra value you would be a fool to still let $50 fill and loose the stadium to someone who would charge $60.

Maybe your yourself won't pay the $10 extra to see the game because you don't like the new player? Then your choices and no one else will reduce his salary.

Who is greedy and robbing you of your value w/o consent?

That would be the moment anyone steps in by force demands that any individual be required to to susidizer another, whether it through taxation or price controls or simple seizure of all assets and people through communist reform. Slavery.

The moment you force on the baseball player a pay cut to some “reasonable salary” you can kiss professional sports goodbye in the country and no matte how much you support it the dryness of communist athletics would evaporate usual interest. Well it’s everything not just sports that needs fixing, right? Repricing food and medical care killed off millions in famine and plague and it was all based on “Gee wouldn’t it be nice to be fair?”

But this is a racket. The wealth you produce and value you should be to others is redefined into a tight regime of complete government oversight. If your a cook in a government restaurant you don't care if your food tastes better. There's no reason why you shouldn't spend extra time just to have more customers becuase now you have to work harder for the same pay. You might actually be better off making it so horrible you clean out the joint and who cares? Simply no reason to try hard to make value because it's crazy to work hard and not be sufficiently rewarded.

Apply that concept in every aspect of business and you bring the economy to it's knees.

We only thank God and freedom that capitalism demonstrates an ability to kicks ass over a bunch of government goons trying to get a piece of us after running their own country into a ditch. Capitalism is every bit a requirement for being free, and if your gripe over prices and salaries are because everyone has property and ownership rights and no goons are now deciding all value, and that means fate, isn't that exactly what you don't want?

Here’s to the CCCP for being smart enough to quit before hitting bottom. BTW their stock market is at a historical high. And I own some! Yeah capitalism!

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by Comrade
I know I it was hard to see me serious but it's as if the solutions you offer are direct contradicition to the concept of freedom. They are simply arguments for communist tyranny.

EXACTLY WHY is a baseball ticket $50 and who is at fault for paying a player so much? The baseball ticket should not be $10, not $100, it will be what it is because someone who owns their own league and runs a grounds and has to be responsible for their own business, actually many someones all a part, found that $50 is great or because it fills the stadium just to the top and any others wanting a seat for $50 got it. Incidentally is great for every buyer in that stadium because that seat and this game was worth at least $50. If you hire a person who thrills people with excellence people will fight for seats and now maybe you stadiam fills at $60. Also the person who drew in such attenions knows he can go anywhere else and make more if the extra $10 difference isn't fairly shared between him and the stadium owner who and all that is between THEM. Or stop paying $10 extra to see the game because you don't like the new player and his salary. Make that 1,000 of you and OOPS he felt that one and you just cut his pay, yourself.

At any one point, did someone lose? The moment anyone steps in and demands that any individual be required to subsidize anothe and then start mucking with prices, you follow the goal of communist reform.

The moment you force on the baseball player a pay cut to some “reasonable salary” you can kiss professional sports goodbye in the country and no matte how much you support it the dryness of communist athletics would evaporate usual interest. Well it’s everything not just sports that needs fixing, right? Repricing food and medical care killed off millions in famine and plague and it was all based on “Gee wouldn’t it be nice to be fair?”

But this is a racket. The wealth you produce and value you should be to others is redefined into a tight regime of complete government oversight. It doesn’t matter if your work is better or a food tastes better there simply no reason to try hard to make value.

We only thank God and freedom that capitalism demonstrates an ability to kicks ass over a bunch of government goons trying to get a piece of us after running their own country into a ditch. Capitalism is every bit a requirement for being free, and if your gripe over prices and salaries are because everyone has property and ownership rights and no goons are now deciding all value, and that means fate, isn't that exactly what you don't want?

Here’s to the CCCP for being smart enough to quit before hitting bottom. BTW their stock market is at a historical high. And I own some! Yeah capitalism!

It all boils down to people caring only about money. That's the reason that things are never done about this "huge" gap in financial status. Those that are rich are powerful and greedy. That's why they are able to charge what they do for certain products and services. I really don't care what the "technical" excuse is for it all; "that" doesn't make it any more right. The people that keep this country going, the ones that have jobs that actually matter, are the ones that get shit on all the time. Without these people, our country wouldn't run. However, the rich movie stars, singers, sports figures/athletes are we-can-do-withouts in the scheme of things. But somehow, they make all the cash. If this country is supposed to be so equal, then why are the poor suffering when the rich have it made. I thought that was a reason why we separated from England, because of the high regard they held for royalty and such low regard for peasants/commoners. Furthermore, I don't agree that fixing this would be a step towards communist reform; that's just the excuse of those who like things the way they are. People that have tons of money would naturally not want things to change. However, the peasants/commoners in America need to come together some day and overthrow "this" tyranny because there's no reason that people need to make millions every year when the important occupations are the lowest paying.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
The people that keep this country going, the ones that have jobs that actually matter, are the ones that get shit on all the time. Without these people, our country wouldn't run. However, the rich movie stars, singers, sports figures/athletes are we-can-do-withouts in the scheme of things. But somehow, they make all the cash.

However, the peasants/commoners in America need to come together some day and overthrow "this" tyranny because there's no reason that people need to make millions every year when the important occupations are the lowest paying.

There is a simple solution to the problem of them making all the money- citizens should stop paying to support them. Buying movie tickets, DVD's, CD's, tickets to games and theatre, etc. are what compels people to charge what they do. It's the law of supply and demand. If people didn't demand, the supply would not be so expensive.

Furthermore, stop patronizing those who advertise as well. Write to the head of the company and tell them that unless they pull their advertising, you won't buy their products. If so many people in this country felt the way you do, that these people don't deserve such riches, the solution would be immediate and impactful.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
It all boils down to people caring only about money. That's the reason that things are never done about this "huge" gap in financial status. Those that are rich are powerful and greedy. That's why they are able to charge what they do for certain products and services. I really don't care what the "technical" excuse is for it all; "that" doesn't make it any more right. The people that keep this country going, the ones that have jobs that actually matter, are the ones that get shit on all the time. Without these people, our country wouldn't run. However, the rich movie stars, singers, sports figures/athletes are we-can-do-withouts in the scheme of things. But somehow, they make all the cash. If this country is supposed to be so equal, then why are the poor suffering when the rich have it made. I thought that was a reason why we separated from England, because of the high regard they held for royalty and such low regard for peasants/commoners. Furthermore, I don't agree that fixing this would be a step towards communist reform; that's just the excuse of those who like things the way they are. People that have tons of money would naturally not want things to change. However, the peasants/commoners in America need to come together some day and overthrow "this" tyranny because there's no reason that people need to make millions every year when the important occupations are the lowest paying.

If you live in this country, you probably haven't seen real poverty. It doesn't exist in this country. Our government puts out bogus stats where people with cars, homes and tv's are considered below poverty level.
The people who settled America didn't want income redistribution, they basically just wanted to left the hell alone.
The economic engine of capitalism, based on our legal framework of corporate law and property rights protection, has created more wealth for more people than socialism could ever hope to. The protection of private property rights is the key to a healthy society.
Your worldview is based mostly on envy. There's time to turn in around, but you need to get over the hate.