Is this country really what our founding fathers dreamed of?

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
If you live in this country, you probably haven't seen real poverty. It doesn't exist in this country. Our government puts out bogus stats where people with cars, homes and tv's are considered below poverty level.
The people who settled America didn't want income redistribution, they basically just wanted to left the hell alone.
The economic engine of capitalism, based on our legal framework of corporate law and property rights protection, has created more wealth for more people than socialism could ever hope to. The protection of private property rights is the key to a healthy society.
Your worldview is based mostly on envy. There's time to turn in around, but you need to get over the hate.

I understand that poverty is much worse in other countries, but this country is the supposed to be the greatest country in the world. An the fact is, plenty of money is here, but only certain people have access to that money, and in my opinion, many have no business making as much money as they do.

As for socialism, who said anything about socialism. I love the democracy, and fixing this situation doesn't make the government not a democracy anymore. Lets take a vote. Who thinks we should fix it, and who thinks we shouldn't.

Please. Don't talk about envy. It's one thing if you make $50,000 and you are jealous of your neighbor who makes $70,000. But, say you are a cop and you make $50,000 and you sit down and watch MTV and look at a singer (who hardly benefits society--especially with the garbage music of today) and that person is making millions. Envy is not the word to use. Hard-working Americans have the right to be upset over this financial inbalance. The only people that are hateful are those that hoard their money and spend it on no one but themselves. That's HATE!

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by Moi
There is a simple solution to the problem of them making all the money- citizens should stop paying to support them. Buying movie tickets, DVD's, CD's, tickets to games and theatre, etc. are what compels people to charge what they do. It's the law of supply and demand. If people didn't demand, the supply would not be so expensive.

Furthermore, stop patronizing those who advertise as well. Write to the head of the company and tell them that unless they pull their advertising, you won't buy their products. If so many people in this country felt the way you do, that these people don't deserve such riches, the solution would be immediate and impactful.

You make a good point: basically a boycott. It's a good way to get through to these companies. Many people know that this income inequality exists and is a big problem, but people aren't willing to become involved in such a boycott; they would rather pay the price because they figure that they can't change anything. That's right. One person can't change anything, but if we all come together, something can be done.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
It all boils down to people caring only about money.

Well what it is about these pieces of paper which get others to do things for you? Every contribution you make "worth paying for" by another is due equal value in trade. I'm certain you expect your fair share what you get is exactly what everyone else fairly values it.

That's the reason that things are never done about this "huge" gap in financial status. Those that are rich are powerful and greedy.

So let's be greedy and take their money! Free markets are just too rough for the envious poor?

Did they get rich by taking anything that wasn't freely paid for by another?

When we rob the rich who can we sponge off next? That is assuming we all stop working so hard and want take a vaction dine out. Where are the waiters? Where is the cruise ship? What the hell are we going to do with all this money from Martha Stuart's estate, eat it?

That's why they are able to charge what they do for certain products and services. I really don't care what the "technical" excuse is for it all; "that" doesn't make it any more right.

One suggestion, DON'T BUY IT.

If you have to shake the coke machine instead of paying a dollar maybe you shouldn't be ripping off the vendor. I can't believe you'd cut into a workers own salary to get something yourself you consider too expensive to FREELY pay. Instead maybe you can cut into company profits a bit and that means screwing stockholders. And even granny's little retirement fund pays the difference and not some fatcat on wall street is that ok?

YOU set your own wage, and if you risk YOUR OWN personal time and money on a bussiness YOU expect to set your own offer. If you think a price in unfair in a free market, it's YOU who find everyone else at fault. It's right as rain you'll still probably emerge with shelter and food no matter how bad your job is. But what do you expect from society, a taste of the good life with a cozy house and Mercedes in the garage? Either you can offer the WORKERS behind all this something of value are you can't. That's it. Go for it.

The people that keep this country going, the ones that have jobs that actually matter, are the ones that get shit on all the time. Without these people, our country wouldn't run. However, the rich movie stars, singers, sports figures/athletes are we-can-do-withouts in the scheme of things. But somehow, they make all the cash. If this country is supposed to be so equal, then why are the poor suffering when the rich have it made. I thought that was a reason why we separated from England, because of the high regard they held for royalty and such low regard for peasants/commoners. Furthermore, I don't agree that fixing this would be a step towards communist reform; that's just the excuse of those who like things the way they are. People that have tons of money would naturally not want things to change. However, the peasants/commoners in America need to come together some day and overthrow "this" tyranny because there's no reason that people need to make millions every year when the important occupations are the lowest paying. [/B]

Howdy doody let the Revolution begin. I don't care who gets what, I just WANT MY COKES FOR NICKLE.

And a nice dacha of course.

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by Comrade
Did they get rich by taking anything that wasn't freely paid for by another?

Well, that's true. But, these people have no choice but to cough up the cash for something they want. Of course, in order to fight it, they can't do that.

But basically, it's okay with you that the rich are greedy. You just are content to blame it on the lower class for "freely" paying for the product/service.
They have no other choice.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

opinion, many have no business making as much money as they do.

[/quote]
The great thing about our country, though, is that's it's not up to small, envy riddled, people like you to dictate how much others SHOULD make.

As for socialism, who said anything about socialism. I love the democracy, and fixing this situation doesn't make the government not a democracy anymore. Lets take a vote. Who thinks we should fix it, and who thinks we shouldn't.

True, a democratic populace could vote to institute income redistribution, however this is a direct conflict with the individual right to keep one's income(property), which is why democracy must be accompanied by a set of individual rights, to prevent the tyranny of the majority. But you knew that, I'm sure, though it seems you openly advocate the rape of the rich few to satisfy the envy of the belligerent horde. You're a stinkin' commie.

Please. Don't talk about envy. It's one thing if you make $50,000 and you are jealous of your neighbor who makes $70,000. But, say you are a cop and you make $50,000 and you sit down and watch MTV and look at a singer (who hardly benefits society--especially with the garbage music of today) and that person is making millions. Envy is not the word to use. Hard-working Americans have the right to be upset over this financial inbalance. The only people that are hateful are those that hoard their money and spend it on no one but themselves. That's HATE! [/B]

The entertainment industry employs millions of people, and it needs stars. They're the stars. Get over it.

The spew that comes from your yammering maw is the only hate on this thread.

Socialism has failed. Really, it has. Failed in Russia, Failing in Europe, Failing in your life.

 

[MtnBiker]

From whence comes income?
Walter E. Williams

April 23, 2003

Here's part of a letter from a reader: "A hard-working, conscientious person can earn $10,000 a year in a fast-food restaurant. At the same time, movie stars and athletes, who make very little contribution to society, can earn in excess of $10,000,000 a year. A baseball player earns more with every swing of the bat than many people do in a year."


The reader's inference is that there's something unfair about income differences of such magnitude. It also reflects ignorance about the sources of income in a free society; that's music to the ears of political demagogues with an insatiable taste for command and control.

I think some of the ignorance and much of the demagoguery stems from the usage of the phrase "income distribution." It might make some people think income is distributed; in other words, there's a dealer of dollars. The reason that some people have few dollars while others have millions upon millions is that the dollar dealer is unjust.

An alternative vision might be that there's a pile of money intended for all of us. The reason why some are rich and some are poor is that the greedy rich got to the pile first and took their unfair share. Clearly, in either case, justice would require a re-dealing, or redistribution, of the dollars, where the government takes ill-gotten gains of the few and returns them to their rightful owners.

Most people, except a few congressmen, would view those explanations of the sources of income as nonsense. In a free society, for the most part, income is earned. It's earned by serving and pleasing one's fellow man.

Why is it that Michael Jordan earns $33 million a year and I don't even earn one-half of one percent of that? I can play basketball, but my problem is with my fellow man, who'd plunk down $200 to see Jordan play and wouldn't pay a dollar to see me play. I'm also willing to sell my name as endorsements for sneakers and sport clothing, but no one has approached me.

The bottom line explanation of Michael Jordan's income relative to mine lies in his capacity to please his fellow man. The person who takes exception to Jordan's salary or sees him, as my letter-writer does, as making "little contribution to society" is really disagreeing with decisions made by millions upon millions of independent decision-makers who decided to fork over their money to see Jordan play. The suggestion that Congress ought to take part of Jordan's earnings and give it to someone else is the same as arrogantly saying, "I know better who ought to receive those dollars."

Another part of the explanation for Jordan's high salary is simply a matter of supply and demand. If there were tens and tens of millions of people with Jordan's talents, you can rest assured he wouldn't be earning $33 million a year. And similarly you can bet that if people really valued hamburgers and there were only a few people with those skills, they'd be earning much more than they currently earn.

We might think of dollars as being "certificates of performance." The better I serve my fellow man, and the higher the value he places on that service, the more certificates of performance he gives me. The more certificates I earn, the greater my claim on the goods my fellow man produces. That's the morality of the market. In order for one to have a claim on what his fellow man produces, he must first serve him. Contrast that moral standard to Congress' standing offer, "Vote for me and I'll take what your fellow man produces and give it to you."
Link

The bottom line explanation of Michael Jordan's income relative to mine lies in his capacity to please his fellow man. The person who takes exception to Jordan's salary or sees him, as my letter-writer does, as making "little contribution to society" is really disagreeing with decisions made by millions upon millions of independent decision-makers who decided to fork over their money to see Jordan play.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie

But basically, it's okay with you that the rich are greedy. You just are content to blame it on the lower class for "freely" paying for the product/service.
They have no other choice.

There is a great many choices available in the marketplace for goods and services.

 

[eric]

Really this envy of the rich must stop ! People should use half the energy used complaining and do something with their lives. Opportunity is all around it just takes the guts to go for it. Most every person in this country has access to education and opportunity it is heart and the willingness to pay a price that differentiates the self-made people from the crowd !

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
opinion, many have no business making as much money as they do.

The great thing about our country, though, is that's it's not up to small, envy riddled, people like you to dictate how much others SHOULD make.

True, a democratic populace could vote to institute income redistribution, however this is a direct conflict with the individual right to keep one's income(property), which is why democracy must be accompanied by a set of individual rights, to prevent the tyranny of the majority. But you knew that, I'm sure, though it seems you openly advocate the rape of the rich few to satisfy the envy of the belligerent horde. You're a stinkin' commie.


The entertainment industry employs millions of people, and it needs stars. They're the stars. Get over it.

The spew that comes from your yammering maw is the only hate on this thread.

Socialism has failed. Really, it has. Failed in Russia, Failing in Europe, Failing in your life. [/QUOTE]

You really have nerve. So many honest, hard-working people in this country are living on the edge, barely getting by and you're saying they are just "envy riddled?"

I'm not talking about an "income redistribution," but an evaluation of how much things should cost. Anything anymore is a rip-off, and all that profit is going to the rich, and they just get richer and richer because they know they can. The answer is to lower prices drastically which would "in turn" lower the amount of money these snobs make. Let me ask you this. Why does someone need to make more than a million dollars a year? Why do they NEED that?

And I will stand by what I say: Those people have NO BUSINESS making the amount of money they make when so many people in this country are at rock bottom (some of them got there on their own, but many are honest citizens just trying to get by). You can't tell me that a singer is more important to this society than a police officer, nurse, doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. Is that what you think?

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
Well, that's true. But, these people have no choice but to cough up the cash for something they want. Of course, in order to fight it, they can't do that.

But basically, it's okay with you that the rich are greedy. You just are content to blame it on the lower class for "freely" paying for the product/service.
They have no other choice.

They do have choice. You yourself used the word "want" above. meaning they didn't need it and they didn't have to buy it. What's the alternative? Are supposed to just give everything to people?

Money is not the root of all evil. It is the root of ingenuity. It is the reason we are as tecnically advanced as we are. It's what drives people to succeed.

 

[eric]

Free market economy baby !!!

By the way where do you think all the great products and services you now enjoy came from, the goodness of people's hearts, now that is a laugh. No, it came from the desire to get rich, plain and simple, take away that motivation and you lose a competetive edge !

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by eric
Really this envy of the rich must stop ! People should use half the energy used complaining and do something with their lives. Opportunity is all around it just takes the guts to go for it. Most every person in this country has access to education and opportunity it is heart and the willingness to pay a price that differentiates the self-made people from the crowd !

I know everyone has access to education and opportunity, but many of these athletes and stars make the money they do, and appear in the spotlight not "just" because of their talent, but because of who they know. Some have hardly any education at all.

 

[MtnBiker]

Cousin Vinnie, how does a person such as an athelete or moive star who makes large amounts of money take away from your possiblity to do the same?

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by Bern80
They do have choice. You yourself used the word "want" above. meaning they didn't need it and they didn't have to buy it. What's the alternative? Are supposed to just give everything to people?

Money is not the root of all evil. It is the root of ingenuity. It is the reason we are as tecnically advanced as we are. It's what drives people to succeed.

Everyone in this country should have to right to enjoy the same pleasures. That's right, these people want these things. It's not their fault that the price is outrageous. They'll pay but reluctantly because there is nothing they as one person can do.

You are just so closed-minded: "Money is everything. Some people are millionaires, but many are struggling finanically. But, who cares about them...?"

You really got to wake up!

I never said that we have to give everything to people for free, but lower prices reasonably to draw in the gap between the upper and lower class. What's the harm in that: only that the extremely rich won't make as much.

You never answered my questions, specifically "Why does someone NEED to make more than a million dollars a year?"
and
"Do you think that athletes, movie stars, and singers are more important to society than police officers, nurses, doctors, fire fighters, etc.?"

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by MtnBiker
Cousin Vinnie, how does a person such as an athelete or moive star who makes large amounts of money take away from your possiblity to do the same?

I'm not worrying just about myself like you others are. I'm worrying about the millions of Americans who are honest and hard-working, but get constantly ripped off by rich companies who care about nothing more than how much more money they can take from the lower and middle class.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie


You really have nerve. So many honest, hard-working people in this country are living on the edge, barely getting by and you're saying they are just "envy riddled?"

Regardless of your negativism, it remains that this country has one of the highest standards of living. That's a fact. We're spoiled. We includes YOU.

I'm not talking about an "income redistribution," but an evaluation of how much things should cost. Anything anymore is a rip-off, and all that profit is going to the rich, and they just get richer and richer because they know they can. The answer is to lower prices drastically which would "in turn" lower the amount of money these snobs make.

So you want the government to regulate all market prices for all goods and services? Yes or no, please. Please explain your answer.

Let me ask you this. Why does someone need to make more than a million dollars a year? Why do they NEED that?

Maybe they have expensive tastes; maybe they have a nasty coke habit. It's none of your business. You have no business.

And I will stand by what I say: Those people have NO BUSINESS making the amount of money they make when so many people in this country are at rock bottom (some of them got there on their own, but many are honest citizens just trying to get by). You can't tell me that a singer is more important to this society than a police officer, nurse, doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc. Is that what you think? [/B]

Believe it or not, some people measure their worth to society by other means than by how much money they make. Do you think a person's worth is directly proportional to how much money they make? IS that what you think? Huh? Huh? Is it? is it? Well?

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
I'm not worrying just about myself like you others are. I'm worrying about the millions of Americans who are honest and hard-working, but get constantly ripped off by rich companies who care about nothing more than how much more money they can take from the lower and middle class.

O.k. Vinnie, but that was not my question. I asked you (and the same could be applied to anyone else), how does someone making a very large sum of money take away from your possiblity to do the same?

I'm not talking about spending money, I'm talking about earning money.

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr



Believe it or not, some people measure their worth to society by other means than by how much money they make. Do you think a person's worth is directly proportional to how much money they make? IS that what you think? Huh? Huh? Is it? is it? Well?

THAT'S the thing. It's NOT in the current state, but shouldn't it? Doesn't it make sense for a person's value or salary to be proportional to how they contribute to society.

 

[eric]

That is a wonderful ideal, but that is all it is. Due to inherent human nature it has never and will never be possible or feasible !!!

 

[Comrade]

There is a simple solution to the problem of them making all the money- citizens should stop paying to support them. Buying movie tickets, DVD's, CD's, tickets to games and theatre, etc. are what compels people to charge what they do. It's the law of supply and demand. If people didn't demand, the supply would not be so expensive.

But what the problem? First of all were talking about other peoples choices. Assuming they all agree too the price in the bidding war may come down.

Question to the price fixers...
]
Do you think an open auction is fair?

Say you lost a bid on a ticket to see the Superbowl since maybe $300 and it was too too stiff. So if for one time you personally could decide that was not fair why not just reset back to your bid at $250 and ensure you win the bid. This is what your need to do with market prices. Well if you're the seller your now ripped by $50, and if you were the buy this would piss you off as well, woudn't it? That' why the ONLY GREED involved here is the suggestion of of price fixing. And thugs with guns are a REQUIREMENT when this example is an everyday affair.

Successfull Americans are not greedy by nature of making money, greed is based on the envy of wealth. I see so much of communist literature come up in America 2004 based on Russia 1917 but people the only motive here is greed for lifestyle and merchandise. It's not like being a serf anymore and nobility is not a birthright.

Those here I assume all have food and shelter and a computer and electicity and freedom and equality and free time and everything worthy of life but maybe not the new Lord of the Rings movie yet. At least the Reds had real gripe.

Hey all you commies, my big screen amd DVD is right here next to my gun! Try it!

The left opposes the second amendment for totally humanitarian reasons, of course.

"Furthermore, stop patronizing those who advertise as well. Write to the head of the company and tell them that unless they pull their advertising, you won't buy their products. If so many people in this country felt the way you do, that these people don't deserve such riches, the solution would be immediate and impactful"

I agree and I'm not question you about this, but I'd sure like to see some honest ideas from what this is supposed to mean.

I personally think any business attemping to sell to those who won't buy anything advertised is basen on financial suicide. Remember "generic beer"? It was just beer, pretty nasty swill actually. But is was cheap! But I mean how cool is generic beer? And if you heard Carona was actually cheaper in one store then Generic beer that's an ad any sane person might consider helpful. But instead the date just thinks your a cheapskate.

You cannot boycott ads but if anyone here demands more generic mystery product let them take the risk, and let other market how much they wan't, if you go broke because nobody listened to you it's because you didn't advertise!

Communists did away with adds altogether, and since I lived there for year year in socialism every beer I had was generic communist beer. Can you tell I was impressed?

You make a good point: basically a boycott. It's a good way to get through to these companies. Many people know that this income inequality exists and is a big problem, but people aren't willing to become involved in such a boycott; they would rather pay the price because they figure that they can't change anything. That's right. One person can't change anything, but if we all come together, something can be done. [/QUOTE]

One decision not to by one person is an effect, usually not siginificant or exact in a mass market but it's the same idea that ONE VOTE counts can be important. Nobody in this thread has the balls to do this anyway. Where do you try to find unadvertised products? Why don't you ad haters go through every brand and match it to an add so we can check it off. If there's anything actually left to buy then publish a list. If anyone actually bothers to try to find these it's probably a few cent's cheater but vastly not worth the effort. It's very hopeless.

Am I helping explain how this works to help buyers and why they will choose to pay the extra for advertising?