Is There Such A Thing As "Right" And "Wrong?"

[Chuckt]

As opposed to your extremist friends who say:

"It is precisely because Biblical revelation is absolutely authoritative and perspicuous that the scientific facts, rightly interpreted, will give the same testimony as that of Scripture. There is not the slightest possibility that the facts of science can contradict the Bible."
-Dr. Henry Morris in very first paragraph of "Scientists Confront Creationism" edited by Laurie R. Godfrey


The above seems to encapsulate the attitudes of so many of the more excitable Christians.

I actually have a library of about 75 feet of Christian books plus Kindle books. If I buy anymore, I might be cataloging them and putting them in boxes in my garage.

One of the prrofessors I volunteered for has two degrees and over 4,000 books in the 90's. I wonder how many books he has now.

My knowledge might be half a page I can write off the top of my head but some of the pastors I know can easily write 12 pages or more and write papers.

I 'm not here to embaress you, Hollie. I proved an atheist wrong on Tyre but proving you wrong won't solve your spiritual condition and when I start down this road, everyone will get in line trying to prove me wrong and I will never accomplish what I have to accomplish. But no. We have been reading the Bible longer than you. Can I tell you I don't believe you?

Wow!
75 whole books!
This post is so pathetically sad it is impossible to respond to.

At least I finished what I started...

 

[AVG-JOE]

No. Life evolved, but morality suddenly came on the scene when man developed self-awareness. It allowed us to see and understand what we do to others as if standing in their shoes--and choosing whether to harm them or not (free will). The Eden story in Genesis is an excellent allegory for it, even to acquiring the knowledge of our ultimate death, which the animals can't comprehend, and is the final determinant of full self-awareness. Whoever wrote that part of Genesis back then, was a pure genius.

Suddenly?


Monkeys are only 10,000 years or so in to our shot at Sentience and the Stars, and even a sociopathic old atheist Monkey like me wouldn't consider our species 'moral' by pretty much ANY definition of the word....

yet.​

The first thing that 21st Century Monkeys should do is celebrate how much better 'Civilized' life is now than it was even just a few hundred years ago.

Next up is to keep working towards a fair marketplace, preparing the next generation to make the most of it, and equitable sharing of Earth's resources among Monkeys present and Monkey Spawn.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/environment/76268-perhaps-our-children.html​

Which brings you to Conscience, by any name. Conscience does transcend culture, society, the wrong turns we all take. Consider that there very well may be a reason for that. Tell me, why are we each our own worst enemy, at least at times???

You're looking good.

The Golden Rule is born of conscience, and it does , for the most part, transcend culture, whether or not you see it as a direct to the Source of creation is your concern.

There is right and wrong, There is circumstance, perspective, there is level and degree, there is consequence, cause and effect, seen and unseen, intended and unintended. Welcome to the show. I understand One's right to live life, to choose, based on one's own perspective, and I agree with it. Why? What is our true Nature? When we are done pissing into the wind? When we are done blaming God for what we both do and impose on each other???

So... "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a widespread parenting concept in Monkeydom?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QDDo1j3a7U]ELVIS PRESLEY - DON'T BE CRUEL - YouTube[/ame]

Who needs God when Mom gives such good advice?

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

Or maybe, just maybe, Monkeys are smart enough in general to understand "right from wrong" based on the simple fact of being able to imagine what it's like to be treated cruelly.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Who needs God telling us right from wrong when we can imagine a mile in another Monkeys moccasins?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC2waxMJ_5Y]"Imagine" - John Lennon - YouTube[/ame]

 

[AVG-JOE]

Proof is irrelevant.

Peace comes with understanding the difference between what can be proven and what must be taken on faith.

And so it goes.

That is not peace.

Understanding that God, Origins and After-life are 100% unprovable and MUST be decided on faith and faith alone has given me tremendous peace.

Just knowing that each and every religion starts off with the same possibilities prior to examining the evidence, and each and every Monkey gets to decide what they think on the subjects without the interference of pesky facts (because there are ZERO facts in the discussion of God, Origins and After-life), the lighter my heart becomes for our species in general.

The less we act like lemmings and the more we use our (insert your preferred Deity here) given imagination and smarts to examine the evidence and make rational choices, the less influence the ancient stories will hold over modern life.

There's war in holding on to the conflict woven in to the ancient stories / There's peace in abandoning the ancient stories and looking toward our children and their future for guidance instead.

 

[Geaux4it]

Yep- That's what makes a nut case whacked out lib a lib

They can't tell the difference between right and wrong. For real- It's a disease for which there is often no cure.

-Geaux

 

[AVG-JOE]

Nice generalizing insults with zero added to the discussion.


Now... define 'right and wrong'.

 

[DriftingSand]

Yep- That's what makes a nut case whacked out lib a lib

They can't tell the difference between right and wrong. For real- It's a disease for which there is often no cure.

-Geaux

What appears to be the general consensus amongst the majority of liberals is that "right and wrong" can morph into whatever they want it to be on any given day. What's right today is wrong tomorrow. It's wrong to kill a 10 month old human life (one month old baby) but it's perfectly fine to kill an 8 month old human life (a month before birth).

It's okay to send drones to kill enemies that Obama doesn't like but it's wrong to put violent, murderous, sadistic murderers to death if they are black.

The hypocrisy abounds within the Liberal community.

 

[Chuckt]

Who needs God telling us right from wrong when we can imagine a mile in another Monkeys moccasins?

"Imagine" - John Lennon - YouTube

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

 

[Chuckt]

Who needs God when Mom gives such good advice?

`​

Because Mom and Dad don't always give such good advice.

 

[PainefulTruth]

I could ask "why" every day for the rest of my life and still not fully understand. Even non-believers could ask themselves "why." Why did a "big bang" happen. Why did rocks and goo give birth to living organisms. Why is man here. Etc. Why, why, why.

"Why?" is revealed religion's Achilles heel. Someone sat down and wrote the Book of Job in an effort to answer it, but all he ended up writing was a very long-winded way of saying, it's none of your damned business. How can someone who believes that God intervenes in our affairs, punishing and rewarding us as we deserve, explain why people never see that happen themselves except by obvious coincidence?

Free will carries a terrible price, doubt, but at least when a terribly senseless thing happens, we know why God didn't intervene--because It mustn't.

Or maybe, just maybe, Monkeys are smart enough in general to understand "right from wrong" based on the simple fact of being able to imagine what it's like to be treated cruelly.

But....they aren't smart enough, however we are. But being smart enough doesn't mean we're going to choose to let that imagining influence our behavior. That's the other terrible price for free will, responsibility.

Understanding that God, Origins and After-life are 100% unprovable and MUST be decided on faith and faith alone has given me tremendous peace.

I don't say this to be mean, it's the Truth that's mean, not me; no superficial bliss is more peaceful than self-imposed ignorance. The problem is, deep down, you still know.

The less we act like lemmings and the more we use our (insert your preferred Deity here) given imagination and smarts to examine the evidence and make rational choices, the less influence the ancient stories will hold over modern life.

You just made an excellent argument against your own "faith".

What appears to be the general consensus amongst the majority of liberals is that "right and wrong" can morph into whatever they want it to be on any given day.

For liberals, yes, that's generally true. "Conservatives" on the other hand let "God" determine their morality via self-appointed divine spokesmen who are wont to succumb to the corruption of power. Rationalists, however, examine our situation and deduce a reason based, universal moral code.

 

[Hollie]

Like your atheist friends say, "I'm going to study the Bible more than science". Yeah, right.

As opposed to your extremist friends who say:

"It is precisely because Biblical revelation is absolutely authoritative and perspicuous that the scientific facts, rightly interpreted, will give the same testimony as that of Scripture. There is not the slightest possibility that the facts of science can contradict the Bible."
-Dr. Henry Morris in very first paragraph of "Scientists Confront Creationism" edited by Laurie R. Godfrey


The above seems to encapsulate the attitudes of so many of the more excitable Christians.

I actually have a library of about 75 feet of Christian books plus Kindle books. If I buy anymore, I might be cataloging them and putting them in boxes in my garage.

One of the prrofessors I volunteered for has two degrees and over 4,000 books in the 90's. I wonder how many books he has now.

My knowledge might be half a page I can write off the top of my head but some of the pastors I know can easily write 12 pages or more and write papers.

I 'm not here to embaress you, Hollie. I proved an atheist wrong on Tyre but proving you wrong won't solve your spiritual condition and when I start down this road, everyone will get in line trying to prove me wrong and I will never accomplish what I have to accomplish. But no. We have been reading the Bible longer than you. Can I tell you I don't believe you?

What “spiritual condition” do you presume needs solving?

Are you such a slave to dogma as to believe that those who don’t share your partisan religious beliefs are necessarily in some kind of imagined “spiritual condition” that needs your solving? You should be aware that the majority of humanity doesn’t share you religious belief. If you’re hoping to cure the planet of it’s “spiritual condition”, ie: people making choices about their lives, It seems you have your work cut out for you, Bunky.

I understand that Christianity is a proselytizing religion but doesn’t it strike you as arrogantly self-righteous to preume that those who don’t believe as you do need to be bludgeoned with your religious belief?

Much of humanity has had belief in supernaturalism as a way to explain the natural world. Humanity has been wrong. History is filled with examples of religious beliefs, (most of those now abandoned),that cultures accepted as true and were believed with equal vigor as you believe in the religion you were born into. Those religions ended up being false. Go fgure.

It is odd, but even though you posture as though philosophy supplants knowledge, it condemns you to vast amounts of wasted pondering, I still expect you to at least be a master of the obvious. Yet, you dissappoint me at every turn.

 

[DriftingSand]

I could ask "why" every day for the rest of my life and still not fully understand. Even non-believers could ask themselves "why." Why did a "big bang" happen. Why did rocks and goo give birth to living organisms. Why is man here. Etc. Why, why, why.

"Why?" is revealed religion's Achilles heel. Someone sat down and wrote the Book of Job in an effort to answer it, but all he ended up writing was a very long-winded way of saying, it's none of your damned business. How can someone who believes that God intervenes in our affairs, punishing and rewarding us as we deserve, explain why people never see that happen themselves except by obvious coincidence?

Actually, the Bible has a simple answer to the "why" (although a non-believer won't find it a sufficient answer).

Ephesians 1:9, "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"
Acts 7:49, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

Free will carries a terrible price, doubt, but at least when a terribly senseless thing happens, we know why God didn't intervene--because It mustn't.

God gave man dominion over the earth. He left man with a set of instructions (His Word). I believe that our time on earth is a time of testing and trying. Job and Christ, Himself, were tempted and tried by the powers that oppose God. In both cases, faith carried them through. God likens mankind's time on earth as silver being purified in a fire. The silver is melted and the dross removed. The remaining silver is more pure. The more often the silver is melted the more pure it becomes.

Or maybe, just maybe, Monkeys are smart enough in general to understand "right from wrong" based on the simple fact of being able to imagine what it's like to be treated cruelly.

But....they aren't smart enough, however we are. But being smart enough doesn't mean we're going to choose to let that imagining influence our behavior. That's the other terrible price for free will, responsibility.

It's either a "terrible price" or a fantastic opportunity. Whenever we do a "right" thing (even when it goes against our human grain) our conscience and spirit rejoices. There is an immediate reward. At least that's how I feel personally when I choose right over wrong.

I don't say this to be mean, it's the Truth that's mean, not me; no superficial bliss is more peaceful than self-imposed ignorance. The problem is, deep down, you still know.

Again, we can choose to see truth as "mean" or as glorious. Knowing truth is always better than believing a lie -- in the long run.

The less we act like lemmings and the more we use our (insert your preferred Deity here) given imagination and smarts to examine the evidence and make rational choices, the less influence the ancient stories will hold over modern life.

You just made an excellent argument against your own "faith".

When believing "the ancient stories" is a benefit to the believer then why alter ones path? In other words, "if it works -- don't fix it." The fact that my Christian path is of valuable benefit to me in my personal life adds to its veracity.

What appears to be the general consensus amongst the majority of liberals is that "right and wrong" can morph into whatever they want it to be on any given day.

For liberals, yes, that's generally true. "Conservatives" on the other hand let "God" determine their morality via self-appointed divine spokesmen who are wont to succumb to the corruption of power. Rationalists, however, examine our situation and deduce a reason based, universal moral code.

I suppose you may have a point depending on whether "rationalists" believe that life just magically appeared out of a primordial ooze by mistake or if there is a more "rational" "reason" why man exists at all. It simply isn't rational to believe that the entire universe came to exist from an explosion that started out as something the size of a pin-head. It's far more rational to believe that something with a clear design was designed.

 

[PainefulTruth]

It simply isn't rational to believe that the entire universe came to exist from an explosion that started out as something the size of a pin-head. It's far more rational to believe that something with a clear design was designed.

What's not rational is your faith telling you to ignore the science. And as for the Big Bang, it's spooky how well that fits with Genesis.

And the size of a pin-head is relative only to our universe. The size of the pin-head, which first appeared at 10 to the -43 sec. (Planck time), was 10 to the -38 m. (Planck length). If you took this period >.< and expanded it to the size of the universe, the pin-head would be this >.< size. But, 10 to the -38m is a finite distance. Spacetime in our universe is not divisible beyond those limits.

But what's to say how far you could "expand" those distances of you're not limited to the natural laws of this physical universe, allowing you to transcend to the other side? A non-physical entity (God?, our spirits?) might be able to shrink down to 10 to the -100 m., -1,000,000 m., or -infinite m. The distances between atoms in our universe would be so immense, they'd essentially be non-existent. We don't know anything about what's out there, what our universe is expanding "into", or what triggered the Big Bang with its 4 of every-how-many dimensions there are in the first place.

I speculate that anything out there can only "watch" us in here through those gaps in the fabric of our universe, if that. Our ignorance of the divine (if any) and thus our free will must be maintained.

 

[DriftingSand]

It simply isn't rational to believe that the entire universe came to exist from an explosion that started out as something the size of a pin-head. It's far more rational to believe that something with a clear design was designed.

What's not rational is your faith telling you to ignore the science. And as for the Big Bang, it's spooky how well that fits with Genesis.

Are you saying that science confirms Genesis? If so, I agree. There is a starting point for the Universe. Was it a huge mistake based on chance or is there an actual "reason" for it. That's the question.

And the size of a pin-head is relative only to our universe. The size of the pin-head, which first appeared at 10 to the -43 sec. (Planck time), was 10 to the -38 m. (Planck length). If you took this period >.< and expanded it to the size of the universe, the pin-head would be this >.< size. But, 10 to the -38m is a finite distance. Spacetime in our universe is not divisible beyond those limits.

You've placed limits on the limitless. You've (mankind) created a box limited by man's finite, imperfect mind. Man has no way of knowing for certain that his calculations are either correct or a "best guess." Before the "big bang" what existed? How far into the unknown does space go and when the limit is reached what exists a mile beyond that point? We can ask these sorts of questions all day long and still never know.

But what's to say how far you could "expand" those distances of you're not limited to the natural laws of this physical universe, allowing you to transcend to the other side? A non-physical entity (God?, our spirits?) might be able to shrink down to 10 to the -100 m., -1,000,000 m., or -infinite m. The distances between atoms in our universe would be so immense, they'd essentially be non-existent. We don't know anything about what's out there, what our universe is expanding "into", or what triggered the Big Bang with its 4 of every-how-many dimensions there are in the first place.

I believe that that's what Christians do as a matter of routine: they "expand the limits of natural law" into the realm of God's thoughts and infinite wisdom. Natural law is defined by God's will and purpose.

What we can see with our naked eye "might" be this or it "might" be that but our finite, temporal, imperfect mind is too limited to know for certain. There's a knowledge base out there much greater than our own. God.

I speculate that anything out there can only "watch" us in here through those gaps in the fabric of our universe, if that. Our ignorance of the divine (if any) and thus our free will must be maintained.

Free will and freedom of thought are what we're left with. We're also left with the Bible and all other writings (whether ancient or modern) to draw our personal conclusions. We're all left trying to make sense of something that doesn't seem to make sense. We're left wondering if all things are here by pure chance and mistake or if there is a grander purpose spawned from an intelligent source. God.

 

[Hollie]

Who needs God telling us right from wrong when we can imagine a mile in another Monkeys moccasins?

"Imagine" - John Lennon - YouTube

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Your friends aren't an authority on the Bible. Remember that.

I'll remember that.

I also understand that I have no reason to expect that anonymous posters on a message board are authorities either.

Then become an authority yourself. We've had many discussion together. I've told you not to just believe because I say so. Go to the Lord and find out for yourself. You've been full of excuses so far. But I hope one day you will ask the Lord.

Or maybe, just maybe, Monkeys are smart enough in general to understand "right from wrong" based on the simple fact of being able to imagine what it's like to be treated cruelly.

Monkeys being able to imagine what it is like to be treated cruelly, should prevent it don't you think? Does the fact that we imagine it and then act on it tell you we need someone other than monkey to show us a better way to treat each other?

We are assuming that knowing right from wrong leads to acting right, because we know better. Knowledge of good and evil doesn't prevent us from choosing evil.

 

[Chuckt]

Who needs God telling us right from wrong when we can imagine a mile in another Monkeys moccasins?

"Imagine" - John Lennon - YouTube

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

No. If you make God's of your own imagination that means they are part of your imagination.

 

[pacer]

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

No. If you make God's of your own imagination that means they are part of your imagination.

Man created god in his imagination and projected him into the real world, through various depictions, descriptions, etc.

 

[thebrucebeat]

If we have to imagine there is no God then that means there is a God.

Conversely, if we have to create gods in our imagination, that means there are no gods?

No. If you make God's of your own imagination that means they are part of your imagination.

You are catching on!