Is There One Sound/valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God?

[emilynghiem]

But you just said humans cannot know. We can believe but can't know.

How can you be "so sure" there is no logic for God's ways and means?

Because I believe in a God who created everything, including the logic we comprehend as part of our physical universe. IF there is something akin to "logic" which God uses, it's beyond our ability to comprehend because we aren't Gods. Speculating that God is confined by humanistic logic and reason, is just not something I can believe or accept. That means something is greater than God and God is not omnipotent or Creator of All. I've seen no argument presented which changes my belief. I don't "know" anything... I believe.

OK so we agree that if there is some Logic God uses on God's level this is beyond our comprehension.
that is fair enough.

So we should drop it if we don't agree.
If you keep holding on to your assertion
it isn't fair to ask Justin to let go of his.

So either agree to let both keep their own view of logic and God
or agree not to argue about either way, but not force one view onto the other if we don't know
for sure the process before God created anything, and if there was reason/logic involved already at the point or before it.

So if we agree to drop it there should not be an argument.

 

[emilynghiem]

God MUST exist, someone had to make my shit stink!

The relativist is the boastfully arrogant pseudo-intellectual, the self-anointed sage of enlightenment looking down his nose on us simple folk who simply believe what common sense dictates. The relativist is the mystical, magic man who pretends to know things that according to his very own premise cannot possibly be known—secrete, esoteric things hidden away from us rubes: logically contradictory things, inherently self-negating things, things that positively prove the opposite of everything he holds to be true, things that are rationally and empirically indemonstrable, things that are patently false and insane according to the logic of human cognition.

Common sense doesn't dictate magic and supernaturalism as models for existence.

And yes, you're a rube.

This is why I strongly suggest studying the process of Spiritual Healing
to understand that it is natural and consistent with explicable science.

You are right, there is no need to depend on anything mystical magical or supernatural.
Sources I recommend for medical research and scientific studies:
freespiritualhealing Resources for Healing and Forgiveness Therapy

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Dear MD
I am guessing that Boss means something like
man's logic or man's science based on laws in creation.
so if God created man and created the universe
then the laws of logic and science are also part of this level of creation.

I think we agree more than we disagree.

Boss has a problem with what is meant by Logic on God's level
just like Justin had a problem with what is meant by
relative truths. vs. absolute truths on God's level.

i think we need better distinctions when we are talking
about the DIFFERENT LEVELS of truth or logic.
And distinguish God's absolute level from the
man made level. i think that is where we might be talking past each other.

In addition, I don't think any insult offense or error is intended
by you, Justin, me or Boss or even GT and Hollie and others.

From what I see, we are all trying to be honest with each other
what we see going on or wrong, and just not getting where the other is coming from yet.

The frustration and misunderstanding will be less as we go.
I hope the accusations and namecalling drop because that isn't helping at all,
especially with people who are sincerely trying and being accused of otherwise!

I understand what he's saying. It's irrational. He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true. He believes the opposite of what these things tell him to be true. Which would fine with me, though it is not fine for him. For is it God with Whom he has set himself up against. What is not fine with me is his arrogant attitude, making people like me who believe God out to be liars or fools with his utter insanity that defies common sense, when his nonsense, which defies the self-negating "absolute" of his very own premise, positively proves the opposite of what he claims to be true, that which he cannot objectively or rationally demonstrate.

Who do these people think they are? These sealybobo's, these QW's, these Foxfyres, these Bosses, these GTs, these Armchaoses, these Hollies?

Who do they think they are?

God?

Yes, apparently, that's what they think.

And when I tell them I don't believe them because I believe God, they get mad.

Well that's too bad. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear MD
I am guessing that Boss means something like
man's logic or man's science based on laws in creation.
so if God created man and created the universe
then the laws of logic and science are also part of this level of creation.

I think we agree more than we disagree.

Boss has a problem with what is meant by Logic on God's level
just like Justin had a problem with what is meant by
relative truths. vs. absolute truths on God's level.

i think we need better distinctions when we are talking
about the DIFFERENT LEVELS of truth or logic.
And distinguish God's absolute level from the
man made level. i think that is where we might be talking past each other.

In addition, I don't think any insult offense or error is intended
by you, Justin, me or Boss or even GT and Hollie and others.

From what I see, we are all trying to be honest with each other
what we see going on or wrong, and just not getting where the other is coming from yet.

The frustration and misunderstanding will be less as we go.
I hope the accusations and namecalling drop because that isn't helping at all,
especially with people who are sincerely trying and being accused of otherwise!

I understand what he's saying. It's irrational. He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true. He believes the opposite of what these things tell him to be true. Which would fine with me, though it is not fine for him. For is it God with Whom he has set himself up against. What is not fine with me is his arrogant attitude, making people like me who believe God out to be liars or fools with his utter insanity that defies common sense, when his nonsense, which defies the self-negating "absolute" of his very own premise, positively proves the opposite of what he claims to be true, that which he cannot objectively or rationally demonstrate.

Who do these people think they are? These sealybobo's, these QW's, these Foxfyres, these Bosses, these GTs, these Armchaoses, these Hollies?

Who do they think they are?

God?

Yes, apparently, that's what they think.

And when I tell them I don't believe them because I believe God, they get mad.

Well that's too bad. Let God be true and every man a liar.

That's NOT what I am getting from what Boss is saying.

Boss is saying
A. any logic on the level of God is beyond our comprehension anyway
and doesn't want to impose conjectures on that, so I asked to be fair,
let's not pose any conjectures AGAINST it either
B. if logic is part of the laws of science within creation,
then logic on man's level is created by God just as man and man's conscience was
C. Boss does believe in God but not a personal relationship/personified God.
So similar to BreezeWood I think they are looking at a broader impersonal God
beyond the personified symbolism in Christianity.

What the REAL issue is separating us is
whether or not we can forgive our differences.

I don't see GT and me insulting each other,
and yet we are nontheist and theist (actually I use both systems and don't have conflicts with either one).

You and Boss are both Theists and yet
accusations fly back and forth between you.

So it isn't just about who believes or doesn't believe.
It's about openness to include receive and forgive each other despite our different or conflicting views
that makes a difference if we can reach agreement on how to talk about God and God's laws/truth.

The more you and Boss let go of whatever negative perceptions and grievances
keep coming up, the more you can resolve the source of those conflicts where they don't have to be sticking points.

 

[emilynghiem]

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Again if you do not apply this rule equally to yourself as others,
then it will cause conflicts.

What I find works better and treats people with equal respect
is to look for what true points each person has to offer.
And trade out from there. I share my points, you share yours, etc.
So we all contribute our part of the puzzle and piece together as much as we can.

instead of judging / rejecting people for mistakes
why not accept and correct the good points so we all benefit[/QUOTE]

 

[Boss]

He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true.

No, it is YOU who rejects my belief that God created everything, including human logic. You've presented NO argument to validate that belief, it's just simply what you stubbornly insist to be the truth without regard for any sort of rationality. Furthermore, not only do you reject my beliefs, you mock and ridicule me, and compare me with Atheists who don't believe in anything spiritual at all.

Get yourself a turban and a mosque, and you can be a radical fanatic! That's where you are!

 

[Hollie]

Dear MD
I am guessing that Boss means something like
man's logic or man's science based on laws in creation.
so if God created man and created the universe
then the laws of logic and science are also part of this level of creation.

I think we agree more than we disagree.

Boss has a problem with what is meant by Logic on God's level
just like Justin had a problem with what is meant by
relative truths. vs. absolute truths on God's level.

i think we need better distinctions when we are talking
about the DIFFERENT LEVELS of truth or logic.
And distinguish God's absolute level from the
man made level. i think that is where we might be talking past each other.

In addition, I don't think any insult offense or error is intended
by you, Justin, me or Boss or even GT and Hollie and others.

From what I see, we are all trying to be honest with each other
what we see going on or wrong, and just not getting where the other is coming from yet.

The frustration and misunderstanding will be less as we go.
I hope the accusations and namecalling drop because that isn't helping at all,
especially with people who are sincerely trying and being accused of otherwise!

I understand what he's saying. It's irrational. He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true. He believes the opposite of what these things tell him to be true. Which would fine with me, though it is not fine for him. For is it God with Whom he has set himself up against. What is not fine with me is his arrogant attitude, making people like me who believe God out to be liars or fools with his utter insanity that defies common sense, when his nonsense, which defies the self-negating "absolute" of his very own premise, positively proves the opposite of what he claims to be true, that which he cannot objectively or rationally demonstrate.

Who do these people think they are? These sealybobo's, these QW's, these Foxfyres, these Bosses, these GTs, these Armchaoses, these Hollies?

Who do they think they are?

God?

Yes, apparently, that's what they think.

And when I tell them I don't believe them because I believe God, they get mad.

Well that's too bad. Let God be true and every man a liar.

The paranoid delusions of the religiously insane.

 

[Justin Davis]

Dear Boss and GT:

This message from Justin is arguing about different things.

Justin was first to confirm with me that he was okay with God being more than just Creator.
MD didn't say anything like that till much later, and in more complicated terms and generally
does not speak English as Justin does. MD rattles off in long complicated terms that Justin has no capacity to replicate.

MD's issue is with antitheists or atheists attacking him and his proof for the sake of attack,
so he does the same thing, and attacks back one minute by poorly spouting off nonsense like calling GT a valley girl,
and then posts 10 points of highly complicated arguments that don't address the objection. Justin doesn't do that.

Justin AT LEAST tries to explain what his objection is using Plain terms.

Justin has stated in two messages now his issue is
* God's absolute truth cannot be relative
* if you do go off on relativity, then anything could be anything and becomes meaningless

MD has never made such an argument or explained his qualms.
Justin at least spelled out why he isn't following what Boss or I am saying.

GT/Boss even if these are two branches from the same tree,
they are both arguing DIFFERENT things, so these can be addressed SEPARATELY.

if we stick to the points, we can resolve those REGARDLESS.
Justin's posts are bringing up personal issues he has which are unique.
M.D. has offered no explanation or correction to why his objections have come out as accusations.

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

I think, from what I remember reading, he was just saying "he/we don't have time for all that shit". We come here to vent a little. If you want to effectively communicate, stop whatever yoga mentality bullshit you are trying to put on us. No one is buying in yet I see you reaching out to everyone the same way. It's not effective. Try something new. Or put it in plain terms. If we are bitching about abortion, we already know the other sides position on it. We disagree. And it is the other side that doesn't want to focus on the real problems, which is how can we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Why don't they want to talk about the solutions? Because they involve rubbers and birth control and sex ed in school. Even covering contraception as part of your healthcare coverage. They don't understand that it's important. Why? Because their god tells them his way or the highway.

What a load of baloney. I've looked at the other threads. The tactic of atheists like you, GT, Hollie, Jake and Jones and a whole lot of others I noticed is to personally attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, shut down discussion, ruin the thread. Most of the threads stop within a page or maybe two pages, because everybody leaves once you punks start. I even saw another thread that Rawlings started. GT, Hollie, Jake, you jump into with insults right off the bat, just like you did here. All the theists left and the OP ended. I can quote you guys from other threads. GT's first post on this thread was to call the theist he was talking to an idiot. Told him to shut up. What's happening here is you guys ain't running the show. And you are a liar seallybobo. Your arguments have been blown to pieces every time, not by yoga but by hard cold, logical facts. What you don't like is getting drubbed by theists who aren't backing down this time, letting you punks run the show or end discussion. And all you phony subjectivist theists who play the same games that atheists do, like Foxfyre, can go hang too. In fact, this is crap that always happens on the other threads. The theists try to stick to the arguments and all you arguments are this same personal crap. You don't have anything but attacking the man arguments, you bunch of phonies.

 

[Hollie]

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

I think, from what I remember reading, he was just saying "he/we don't have time for all that shit". We come here to vent a little. If you want to effectively communicate, stop whatever yoga mentality bullshit you are trying to put on us. No one is buying in yet I see you reaching out to everyone the same way. It's not effective. Try something new. Or put it in plain terms. If we are bitching about abortion, we already know the other sides position on it. We disagree. And it is the other side that doesn't want to focus on the real problems, which is how can we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Why don't they want to talk about the solutions? Because they involve rubbers and birth control and sex ed in school. Even covering contraception as part of your healthcare coverage. They don't understand that it's important. Why? Because their god tells them his way or the highway.

What a load of baloney. I've looked at the other threads. The tactic of atheists like you, GT, Hollie, Jake and Jones and a whole lot of others I noticed is to personally attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, shut down discussion, ruin the thread. Most of the threads stop within a page or maybe two pages, because everybody leaves once you punks start. I even saw another thread that Rawlings started. GT, Hollie, Jake, you jump into with insults right off the bat, just like you did here. All the theists left and the OP ended. I can quote you guys from other threads. GT's first post on this thread was to call the theist he was talking to an idiot. Told him to shut up. What's happening here is you guys ain't running the show. And you are a liar seallybobo. Your arguments have been blown to pieces every time, not by yoga but by hard cold, logical facts. What you don't like is getting drubbed by theists who aren't backing down this time, letting you punks run the show or end discussion. And all you phony subjectivist theists who play the same games that atheists do, like Foxfyre, can go hang too. In fact, this is crap that always happens on the other threads. The theists try to stick to the arguments and all you arguments are this same personal crap. You don't have anything but attacking the man arguments, you bunch of phonies.

Do you need a tissue?

 

[emilynghiem]

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

I think, from what I remember reading, he was just saying "he/we don't have time for all that shit". We come here to vent a little. If you want to effectively communicate, stop whatever yoga mentality bullshit you are trying to put on us. No one is buying in yet I see you reaching out to everyone the same way. It's not effective. Try something new. Or put it in plain terms. If we are bitching about abortion, we already know the other sides position on it. We disagree. And it is the other side that doesn't want to focus on the real problems, which is how can we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Why don't they want to talk about the solutions? Because they involve rubbers and birth control and sex ed in school. Even covering contraception as part of your healthcare coverage. They don't understand that it's important. Why? Because their god tells them his way or the highway.

What a load of baloney. I've looked at the other threads. The tactic of atheists like you, GT, Hollie, Jake and Jones and a whole lot of others I noticed is to personally attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, shut down discussion, ruin the thread. Most of the threads stop within a page or maybe two pages, because everybody leaves once you punks start. I even saw another thread that Rawlings started. GT, Hollie, Jake, you jump into with insults right off the bat, just like you did here. All the theists left and the OP ended. I can quote you guys from other threads. GT's first post on this thread was to call the theist he was talking to an idiot. Told him to shut up. What's happening here is you guys ain't running the show. And you are a liar seallybobo. Your arguments have been blown to pieces every time, not by yoga but by hard cold, logical facts. What you don't like is getting drubbed by theists who aren't backing down this time, letting you punks run the show or end discussion. And all you phony subjectivist theists who play the same games that atheists do, like Foxfyre, can go hang too. In fact, this is crap that always happens on the other threads. The theists try to stick to the arguments and all you arguments are this same personal crap. You don't have anything but attacking the man arguments, you bunch of phonies.

Dear Justin:
I have not said any such disrespectful thing to either you or M.D. but sought to support you both.

And you called my msgs a bunch of baloney
and M.D. said to shut up, calling me a liar and
saying I was full of BS!

So what does that say about you both as well?

Sounds like you are equally hostile.

Even Boss has tried to resolve issues as a fellow theist
and met with insult and attack.

Whatever has gone wrong in the past,
I suggest we drop it at the doorstep and
ask that the Wisdom of God enter and guide
us in fellowship and not this negative backbiting!

If you and M.D. are fellow Christians
I ask that you lead us in prayer that we
be guided in Christ and that all stumbling blocks
be resolved and removed so that we may
establish agreement in truth as we are called to do as believers.

Thank you Justin
and my apologies for whatever has been going on before
this, that we may leave this behind and do better in teh futrue!

 

[Justin Davis]

Dear Boss and GT:

This message from Justin is arguing about different things.

Justin was first to confirm with me that he was okay with God being more than just Creator.
MD didn't say anything like that till much later, and in more complicated terms and generally
does not speak English as Justin does. MD rattles off in long complicated terms that Justin has no capacity to replicate.

MD's issue is with antitheists or atheists attacking him and his proof for the sake of attack,
so he does the same thing, and attacks back one minute by poorly spouting off nonsense like calling GT a valley girl,
and then posts 10 points of highly complicated arguments that don't address the objection. Justin doesn't do that.

Justin AT LEAST tries to explain what his objection is using Plain terms.

Justin has stated in two messages now his issue is
* God's absolute truth cannot be relative
* if you do go off on relativity, then anything could be anything and becomes meaningless

MD has never made such an argument or explained his qualms.
Justin at least spelled out why he isn't following what Boss or I am saying.

GT/Boss even if these are two branches from the same tree,
they are both arguing DIFFERENT things, so these can be addressed SEPARATELY.

if we stick to the points, we can resolve those REGARDLESS.
Justin's posts are bringing up personal issues he has which are unique.
M.D. has offered no explanation or correction to why his objections have come out as accusations.

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

Is the sentiment mutual when they lash out at YOU?

Think.


Pacifism has its wisdom, but in these situations and for me personally - it's naive.

If you could, ignore that I'll never respect them and treat my and your interactions independent from the rest of the bumble-jargain.

You are correct, god cannot be proven n'or dis-proven by humans. We begin on similar ground there. However you'd like to elaborate based upon that, I'm game/open minded.

Phony! Another straw man. Human logic proves that God exists and you did not and could refute that fact. Everyone of your arguments have been refuted, shown to be stupid and false. Atheisism is stupid and on this thread you guys aren't able to hide that. That's what you don't like and Emily is wrong too.

 

[Justin Davis]

Are you gong Hollie on us, Boss?

Fuck you, Justin. If all you're going to do is insult me and be a troll, go to hell.

Another phony. Your arguments are total crap. They're retarded. They're stupid and contradictory. Yeah and this filth is all you got left. Are you Hollie? Did Hollie hijack your account?

 

[emilynghiem]

He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true.

No, it is YOU who rejects my belief that God created everything, including human logic. You've presented NO argument to validate that belief, it's just simply what you stubbornly insist to be the truth without regard for any sort of rationality. Furthermore, not only do you reject my beliefs, you mock and ridicule me, and compare me with Atheists who don't believe in anything spiritual at all.

Get yourself a turban and a mosque, and you can be a radical fanatic! That's where you are!

Dear Boss
I think we can agree that God's logic is on another level.
This is clearly not the same as the logic on our human level.

M.D. and Justin both reacted to this idea of relative truths vs. absolute truths.
So they do not put human logic or relativity on the same level of God's truth and logic as absolute.

They are just not perfect at expressing this,
and are rejecting us when we are actually agreeing with them.

the concepts are there, but the language is missing the mark.
We are talking past each other to the point of sounding
completely contradictory when that cannot be what we mean.

Sorry for this.

The hostile negative energy has to be removed from the picture first
and maybe there won't be such wild refractions skewing what
we are saying and hearing, like walking through a hall of mirrors
where everything is getting distorted beyond sense and recognition.

Yuck

I think we need to do a control alt delete on this thread
and maybe start over from a fresh perspective. something got off on the wrong track
and don't know if we can fix that or have to start over instead?

 

[emilynghiem]

He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true.

No, it is YOU who rejects my belief that God created everything, including human logic. You've presented NO argument to validate that belief, it's just simply what you stubbornly insist to be the truth without regard for any sort of rationality. Furthermore, not only do you reject my beliefs, you mock and ridicule me, and compare me with Atheists who don't believe in anything spiritual at all.

Get yourself a turban and a mosque, and you can be a radical fanatic! That's where you are!

Dear Boss
I think we can agree that God's logic is on another level.
This is clearly not the same as the logic on our human level.

M.D. and Justin both reacted to this idea of relative truths vs. absolute truths.
So they do not put human logic or relativity on the same level of God's truth and logic as absolute.

They are just not perfect at expressing this,
and are rejecting us when we are actually agreeing with them.

the concepts are there, but the language is missing the mark.
We are talking past each other to the point of sounding
completely contradictory when that cannot be what we mean.

Sorry for this.

The hostile negative energy has to be removed from the picture first
and maybe there won't be such wild refractions skewing what
we are saying and hearing, like walking through a hall of mirrors
where everything is getting distorted beyond sense and recognition.

Yuck

I think we need to do a control alt delete on this thread
and maybe start over from a fresh perspective. something got off on the wrong track
and don't know if we can fix that or have to start over instead?

I asked MD and Justin if we can try to remove the
stumbling blocks, but not sure the best way to do that.

 

[emilynghiem]

He simply doesn't believe what the objective facts of human cognition and the logic thereof tell him to be true.

No, it is YOU who rejects my belief that God created everything, including human logic. You've presented NO argument to validate that belief, it's just simply what you stubbornly insist to be the truth without regard for any sort of rationality. Furthermore, not only do you reject my beliefs, you mock and ridicule me, and compare me with Atheists who don't believe in anything spiritual at all.

Get yourself a turban and a mosque, and you can be a radical fanatic! That's where you are!

Dear Boss
I think we can agree that God's logic is on another level.
This is clearly not the same as the logic on our human level.

M.D. and Justin both reacted to this idea of relative truths vs. absolute truths.
So they do not put human logic or relativity on the same level of God's truth and logic as absolute.

They are just not perfect at expressing this,
and are rejecting us when we are actually agreeing with them.

the concepts are there, but the language is missing the mark.
We are talking past each other to the point of sounding
completely contradictory when that cannot be what we mean.

Sorry for this.

The hostile negative energy has to be removed from the picture first
and maybe there won't be such wild refractions skewing what
we are saying and hearing, like walking through a hall of mirrors
where everything is getting distorted beyond sense and recognition.

Yuck

I think we need to do a control alt delete on this thread
and maybe start over from a fresh perspective. something got off on the wrong track
and don't know if we can fix that or have to start over instead?

I asked MD and Justin if we can try to remove the
stumbling blocks, but not sure the best way to do that.

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry Justin
Human knowledge being finite
means God being infinite is beyond our limits.

We can symbolize God and prove there is a consensus on meaning and definition,
so I agree with you and M.D. on that.

But I also agree when M.D. says that science cannot prove anything, but only verify and falsify,
so this is what we mean by human logic that is on the level of science.

Justin you and I and MD and Boss would agree
if we could agree what we are calling these different levels.

I see we are getting tied up in the terms we use for "which level"
so of course these conflict with each other. We aren't talking about the same things.

And when we are, we use different terms!

Sorry this is causing so much confusion.

This is why we are called to forgive one another
because of these imperfections and biases.

I pray we can overcome these so we can continue to
uncover greater understanding of God that can come about here by continuing to share
and help each other.

Only the Devil would delight in anyone being divided and attacking each other.

So if you love God more than the Devil
you would seek truth that sets us free from division and strife
and would not play into the traps used to divide and conquer.

Let us forgive and seek the truth of God the Kingdom of God
that brings us closer to perfect understanding.

Let us not seek to trip and fail one another, as there is no joy in iniquity.

Can we agree to seek the Wisdom of God
and let perfect love of truth cast out all error?

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry Justin
Human knowledge being finite
means God being infinite is beyond our limits.

We can symbolize God and prove there is a consensus on meaning and definition,
so I agree with you and M.D. on that.

But I also agree when M.D. says that science cannot prove anything, but only verify and falsify,
so this is what we mean by human logic that is on the level of science.

Justin you and I and MD and Boss would agree
if we could agree what we are calling these different levels.

I see we are getting tied up in the terms we use for "which level"
so of course these conflict with each other. We aren't talking about the same things.

And when we are, we use different terms!

Sorry this is causing so much confusion.

This is why we are called to forgive one another
because of these imperfections and biases.

I pray we can overcome these so we can continue to
uncover greater understanding of God that can come about here by continuing to share
and help each other.

Only the Devil would delight in anyone being divided and attacking each other.

So if you love God more than the Devil
you would seek truth that sets us free from division and strife
and would not play into the traps used to divide and conquer.

Let us forgive and seek the truth of God the Kingdom of God
that brings us closer to perfect understanding.

Let us not seek to trip and fail one another, as there is no joy in iniquity.

Can we agree to seek the Wisdom of God
and let perfect love of truth cast out all error?

 

[Justin Davis]

Yours is a pathology shared by the religiously insane.

Hollie

That's a better argument than you have offered so far.

I've humiliated you and your pointless "seven phony things" fraud. You're left to stutter and mumble as your sick account of "Justin", does.

Lies and insults is everyone of your posts since you came here. Rawlings, Abba, Where are my Keys and I and others tried to be nice to you earlier but no those posts just got more lies and insults. Phony. Your seven stupid things. Phony. Go back to the other threads. Maybe you can shut those down the way you always do everywhere else.

You don't believer you exist? Liar. You don't believe the universe exists? Liar. You don't believe that it's possible the universe might not have always existed but was caused to exist by God? Liar. If God, God wouldn't have to be the greatest thing that exists? Liar. You don't believe that science cannot show God's existence or nonexistence? Liar. You really believe it's logically possible to say that God doesn't exist? How can you know that? Liar. All you atheists are liars and phonies.

 

[Justin Davis]

Yours is a pathology shared by the religiously insane.

Hollie

That's a better argument than you have offered so far.

I've humiliated you and your pointless "seven phony things" fraud. You're left to stutter and mumble as your sick account of "Justin", does.

Lies and insults is everyone of your posts since you came here. Rawlings, Abba, Where are my Keys and I and others tried to be nice to you earlier but no those posts just got more lies and insults. Phony. Your seven stupid things. Phony. Go back to the other threads. Maybe you can shut those down the way you always do everywhere else.

You don't believer you exist? Liar. You don't believe the universe exists? Liar. You don't believe that it's possible the universe might not have always existed but was caused to exist by God? Liar. If God, God wouldn't have to be the greatest thing that exists? Liar. You don't believe that science cannot show God's existence or nonexistence? Liar. You really believe it's logically possible to say that God doesn't exist? How can you know that? Liar. All you atheists are liars and phonies.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yours is a pathology shared by the religiously insane.

Hollie

That's a better argument than you have offered so far.

I've humiliated you and your pointless "seven phony things" fraud. You're left to stutter and mumble as your sick account of "Justin", does.

Lies and insults is everyone of your posts since you came here. Rawlings, Abba, Where are my Keys and I and others tried to be nice to you earlier but no those posts just got more lies and insults. Phony. Your seven stupid things. Phony. Go back to the other threads. Maybe you can shut those down the way you always do everywhere else.

You don't believer you exist? Liar. You don't believe the universe exists? Liar. You don't believe that it's possible the universe might not have always existed but was caused to exist by God? Liar. If God, God wouldn't have to be the greatest thing that exists? Liar. You don't believe that science cannot show God's existence or nonexistence? Liar. You really believe it's logically possible to say that God doesn't exist? How can you know that? Liar. All you atheists are liars and phonies.

Dear Justin:
Funny, I usually have no problem talking and sharing common truths with nontheists, including atheists,
because I do not treat them as hostile or see any reason to insult or reject them.

I find we can agree on universal laws and truth even if we don't agree how these came into existence,
if there is a starting point or God, or if all things are collectively the forces of God, etc.

I am sorry you are going through this,
but maybe it is necessary that you do.

After you are done being tested, and coming to peace that understanding of God is
NOT dependent on ANY of these things, maybe you will find the rest of the answers.

This path seems to be a negative dead end, so
maybe there is a better way for you to connect with others.

I pray that you and I and all others be joined closer to God through Christ or Conscience
so that we may understand greater truth and this shall set us free from all this negative strife dividing us right now.

God must be using that to bring out the areas we need to resolve issues
so that we can be made whole or perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect.
In Jesus name I pray for you MD. Boss and all others here, theists and nontheists alike
to be uplifted and filled with wisdom and understanding of God's universal laws regardless of our views.

Amen

 

[emilynghiem]

Yours is a pathology shared by the religiously insane.

Hollie

That's a better argument than you have offered so far.

I've humiliated you and your pointless "seven phony things" fraud. You're left to stutter and mumble as your sick account of "Justin", does.

Lies and insults is everyone of your posts since you came here. Rawlings, Abba, Where are my Keys and I and others tried to be nice to you earlier but no those posts just got more lies and insults. Phony. Your seven stupid things. Phony. Go back to the other threads. Maybe you can shut those down the way you always do everywhere else.

You don't believer you exist? Liar. You don't believe the universe exists? Liar. You don't believe that it's possible the universe might not have always existed but was caused to exist by God? Liar. If God, God wouldn't have to be the greatest thing that exists? Liar. You don't believe that science cannot show God's existence or nonexistence? Liar. You really believe it's logically possible to say that God doesn't exist? How can you know that? Liar. All you atheists are liars and phonies.

Dear Justin:
Funny, I usually have no problem talking and sharing common truths with nontheists, including atheists,
because I do not treat them as hostile or see any reason to insult or reject them.

I find we can agree on universal laws and truth even if we don't agree how these came into existence,
if there is a starting point or God, or if all things are collectively the forces of God, etc.

I am sorry you are going through this,
but maybe it is necessary that you do.

After you are done being tested, and coming to peace that understanding of God is
NOT dependent on ANY of these things, maybe you will find the rest of the answers.

This path seems to be a negative dead end, so
maybe there is a better way for you to connect with others.

I pray that you and I and all others be joined closer to God through Christ or Conscience
so that we may understand greater truth and this shall set us free from all this negative strife dividing us right now.

God must be using that to bring out the areas we need to resolve issues
so that we can be made whole or perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect.
In Jesus name I pray for you MD. Boss and all others here, theists and nontheists alike
to be uplifted and filled with wisdom and understanding of God's universal laws regardless of our views.

Amen

 

[sealybobo]

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

I think, from what I remember reading, he was just saying "he/we don't have time for all that shit". We come here to vent a little. If you want to effectively communicate, stop whatever yoga mentality bullshit you are trying to put on us. No one is buying in yet I see you reaching out to everyone the same way. It's not effective. Try something new. Or put it in plain terms. If we are bitching about abortion, we already know the other sides position on it. We disagree. And it is the other side that doesn't want to focus on the real problems, which is how can we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Why don't they want to talk about the solutions? Because they involve rubbers and birth control and sex ed in school. Even covering contraception as part of your healthcare coverage. They don't understand that it's important. Why? Because their god tells them his way or the highway.

What a load of baloney. I've looked at the other threads. The tactic of atheists like you, GT, Hollie, Jake and Jones and a whole lot of others I noticed is to personally attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, shut down discussion, ruin the thread. Most of the threads stop within a page or maybe two pages, because everybody leaves once you punks start. I even saw another thread that Rawlings started. GT, Hollie, Jake, you jump into with insults right off the bat, just like you did here. All the theists left and the OP ended. I can quote you guys from other threads. GT's first post on this thread was to call the theist he was talking to an idiot. Told him to shut up. What's happening here is you guys ain't running the show. And you are a liar seallybobo. Your arguments have been blown to pieces every time, not by yoga but by hard cold, logical facts. What you don't like is getting drubbed by theists who aren't backing down this time, letting you punks run the show or end discussion. And all you phony subjectivist theists who play the same games that atheists do, like Foxfyre, can go hang too. In fact, this is crap that always happens on the other threads. The theists try to stick to the arguments and all you arguments are this same personal crap. You don't have anything but attacking the man arguments, you bunch of phonies.

It's because there isn't one argument for god that isn't without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation.

So you think theists have proved god exists without a shadow of a doubt with facts? Can you give me a couple examples?

No one is lying Justin. We truly don't believe in your gods. And we call you idiot and fool because that is what believing in god makes you.

It's ok to believe there is a god if you admit you don't know. But the minute you start telling us about virgin births and living in whales belly for 3 days and living to tell about it, is when we stop listening and start laughing at you. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

“I’m sorry if my insensitivity towards your beliefs offends you. But guess what – your religious wars, jihads, crusades, inquisitions, censoring of free speech, brainwashing of children, forcing girls into underage marriages, female genital mutilation, stoning, pederasty, homophobia and rejection of science and reason offend me. So I guess we’re even.”

 

[sealybobo]

But it's way more fun to consider them one person, and also keeps things more organized and concise. All in all, it enhances my quality of life 0.000000001367%, which is closer to zero than one but still, it's NOT zero. I may even have a party in its honor!

If we don't respect and treat people as individuals,
how can we ask them not to lump us all together and dismiss us collectively?

We need to stop this business of labeling for convenience.

Especially if Boss is trying to distinguish God as Creator from God as Logic naturally existing.

How can we ask others to make a distinction that is more convenient for us,
when we refuse to distinguish them from something or someone else we are lumping together?

I told you a long time ago, Emily.

I don't take this as seriously as you do. This is a flippant internet conversation to pass time while I also handle my business. It cuts it up a bit. In real life, these conversations would never devolve like this such as they have, not in the circles of people that I keep around.

I lost respect for justin and md long ago, when I saw that their tactics of discussion were grimy.

I consider them vile, as humans. I don't want to respect them. And I'm even the re-conciliatory kind of guy, I give people chances because I'm pretty nice. For that reason, it's even MORE egregious when someone crosses my line of disrespect.

So, to bring the point home for you: I have zero reason or want or necessity to respect these vile creatures.

I respect you though. We disagree in terms of spiritualism, and can still get along like peanut butter and jelly. That's because we are nice people.

These gentlemen called you names, as well. And YOU DEFINITELY did not start that level of disrespect with them. Remember that, when they think they can talk past or down to you, and pretend that you need a babysitter telling you who and who not to trust and things like that. The blatant disrespect cannot be reeled in, their egos are to the moon, alice.

Dear me!

GT, no wonder they lash out and have no respect
if the sentiment is mutual.

I just know that where I treat people with respect,
they do the same, or try to.

how are we going to carve out any civility in the world
if we treat each other as trash?

It makes sense to me if we want to make the world a better place,
the only things we can change are the relations in our range.

If we don't even clean up the garbage there, where we can do something about it,
what hope is there for the rest of the world to clean up messes going on?

Just my understanding of think globally, act locally.
Whatever we do to correct error and restore good faith relations locally
you multiply that by 1000 and you get an exponential impact on the world.

You don't have to believe in the 100th monkey syndrome, or 6 degrees of separation.
Even young kids get the idea of the ripple effect, that if you do one nice thing to
make things better, then the positive love and energy passes forward.

here is a whole nonprofit group doing outreach based on that concept:
Rachel s Challenge
If just one student can have this much impact, think of what the rest of us can do!

I think, from what I remember reading, he was just saying "he/we don't have time for all that shit". We come here to vent a little. If you want to effectively communicate, stop whatever yoga mentality bullshit you are trying to put on us. No one is buying in yet I see you reaching out to everyone the same way. It's not effective. Try something new. Or put it in plain terms. If we are bitching about abortion, we already know the other sides position on it. We disagree. And it is the other side that doesn't want to focus on the real problems, which is how can we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Why don't they want to talk about the solutions? Because they involve rubbers and birth control and sex ed in school. Even covering contraception as part of your healthcare coverage. They don't understand that it's important. Why? Because their god tells them his way or the highway.

What a load of baloney. I've looked at the other threads. The tactic of atheists like you, GT, Hollie, Jake and Jones and a whole lot of others I noticed is to personally attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, shut down discussion, ruin the thread. Most of the threads stop within a page or maybe two pages, because everybody leaves once you punks start. I even saw another thread that Rawlings started. GT, Hollie, Jake, you jump into with insults right off the bat, just like you did here. All the theists left and the OP ended. I can quote you guys from other threads. GT's first post on this thread was to call the theist he was talking to an idiot. Told him to shut up. What's happening here is you guys ain't running the show. And you are a liar seallybobo. Your arguments have been blown to pieces every time, not by yoga but by hard cold, logical facts. What you don't like is getting drubbed by theists who aren't backing down this time, letting you punks run the show or end discussion. And all you phony subjectivist theists who play the same games that atheists do, like Foxfyre, can go hang too. In fact, this is crap that always happens on the other threads. The theists try to stick to the arguments and all you arguments are this same personal crap. You don't have anything but attacking the man arguments, you bunch of phonies.

It's because there isn't one argument for god that isn't without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation.

So you think theists have proved god exists without a shadow of a doubt with facts? Can you give me a couple examples?

No one is lying Justin. We truly don't believe in your gods. And we call you idiot and fool because that is what believing in god makes you.

It's ok to believe there is a god if you admit you don't know. But the minute you start telling us about virgin births and living in whales belly for 3 days and living to tell about it, is when we stop listening and start laughing at you. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

“I’m sorry if my insensitivity towards your beliefs offends you. But guess what – your religious wars, jihads, crusades, inquisitions, censoring of free speech, brainwashing of children, forcing girls into underage marriages, female genital mutilation, stoning, pederasty, homophobia and rejection of science and reason offend me. So I guess we’re even.”