Debate Now Is the Cultural Paradigm Shifting Along with the Demographic Changes?

[fncceo]

Is a non-white majority America still "America"?

America has never been a "white" country. We have always been multicultural.

 

[deanrd]

The question:

As we move towards a "White Minority" country will our cultural paradigm shift significantly?

Or...will the prevailing mainstream culture prove strong enough to shape the new demographics to conform to the "old" values?

Is a non-white majority America still "America"?

Hmmm..rules:

Civility

Address the questions

Explain your point

It's not just race.

As the number of people with degrees grows, the number of Republicans with degrees shrinks. I've posted those links a dozen times. It's not a liberal lie. It's just how right wingers view education. That's what limits many of them from having a good job.

 

[Olde Europe]

As far as your last paragraph, I think the divide has a tremendous momentum in widening and I see no hope in my lifetime that people will seek compromise. But I have no real feel for the pulse of all America, only the few that make big splashes in the media – removing Confederate statues, shooting up schools, etc.. There is no single culture in America. There are two, the right and the left.

I have to disagree with the part in bold.

There may not be a "single cuture", but the overlap between cultures is huge, and probably orders of magnitude bigger than the non-overlap. The problem isn't differences of culture, but the perennial over-emphasis on a few bones of contention, such as gun rights, abortion, or gay rights, purposely set center stage by political operatives, and meant to mobilize the "base".

But yes, the longer this goes on, the more liberals and conservatives self-segregate into different regions or counties, the more these groups view each other with suspicion, fear and even hate, the more they see themselves as the victims of the respective other group (we've seen some of that on this thread), the wider the gaps will become, and the less likely compromise will be.

 

[deanrd]

As far as your last paragraph, I think the divide has a tremendous momentum in widening and I see no hope in my lifetime that people will seek compromise. But I have no real feel for the pulse of all America, only the few that make big splashes in the media – removing Confederate statues, shooting up schools, etc.. There is no single culture in America. There are two, the right and the left.

I have to disagree with the part in bold.

There may not be a "single cuture", but the overlap between cultures is huge, and probably orders of magnitude bigger than the non-overlap. The problem isn't differences of culture, but the perennial over-emphasis on a few bones of contention, such as gun rights, abortion, or gay rights, purposely set center stage by political operatives, and meant to mobilize the "base".

But yes, the longer this goes on, the more liberals and conservatives self-segregate into different regions or counties, the more these groups view each other with suspicion, fear and even hate, the more they see themselves as the victims of the respective other group (we've seen some of that on this thread), the wider the gaps will become, and the less likely compromise will be.

Actually, it’s Republicans on one side and everyone else on the other.
Republicans just assume the Democrats have as little diversity as they have.
It’s difficult to understand people from other cultures when everyone you surround yourself with are just like you.

 

[Unkotare]

So, this isn’t a discussion about culture? Just another pointless, partisan go-round?

 

[Olde Europe]

Actually, it’s Republicans on one side and everyone else on the other.
Republicans just assume the Democrats have as little diversity as they have.
It’s difficult to understand people from other cultures when everyone you surround yourself with are just like you.

Yep, we've heard all that before. Still...

That's three assertions, none of which supported by so much as an attempt at an argument.

The first is an assertion of fact that is clearly false, as you're patently omitting independents who have a habit of changing sides quite frequently. Also, in 2016 we've seen Democrats in significant numbers, and in crucial States / districts, voting Republican, and pushing Trump over the finish line.

The second assertion is just stereotyping Republicans as if they were all the same, which they are clearly not.

The third is a truism that does nothing to clarify why people are self-segregating and thus sheds no light on the issue, and it is one-sided as it is stated under the rubric of "it's Republicans...", and doesn't mention districts that vote 90% Democratic, which seems to indicate that the self-segregation happens on both sides.

So, there's not much of value in that posting, and you would have realized it yourself had you attempted to formulate an argument in support of either assertion, but you didn't. Looking at things through a partisan lens, seeing what you want to see, and reporting accordingly is what contributes to the very divisions that tear the country apart, to which you contribute without acknowledging same. You can do better than that, can't you?

 

[Foxfyre]

But it was those emerging from the rebellion who were certain they could have a part in rejecting the old and creating a brand new world who were the catalyst for a monumental cultural shift.

So they chose to major in journalism/media, in education, in various scientific fields, in curricula that would prepare them to manage the nation's institutions, in entertainment that has always had affect on public opinion. Some went into the ministry where you find maybe the largest cultural divide. You have those denominations that still focus on bringing people to God and living a righteous life and those that focus on radical social change and justice. These sadly consider each other to be misguided if not actually evil.

You make it sound like a concerted effort by liberals to engage in occupations that would allow them to change American culture. Perhaps it is really because liberals do what they enjoy and the same with conservatives. I went into physics and math because I was passionate about it.

Psychiatrist Gail Saltz has an interesting slant on this.
New Studies Show Liberals and Conservatives Have Different Brain Structures

"... what’s been found in several studies is that liberals tend to have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus. That is an area that is responsible for taking in new information and that impact of the new information on decision making or choices. Conservatives tended on the whole to have a larger right amygdala. Amygdala being a deeper brain structure that processes more emotional information—specifically fear-based information," ​

According to her research the above correlation of brain structures and political slant are 69.5% accurate. There may be nothing to the study, but it does point out that culture of different demographics can be due to some sort of internal genetic force that is difficult to change.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with brain structure. Evolutionary changes do not occur within the scope of a half dozen decades. But it does have much to do with societal pressures to conform. I was once perplexed at students from ultra-progressive universities who insist that their professors did not promote leftist doctrines. And I came to realize they honestly believe that. Because they have never been allowed or encouraged to see any other point of view, they think what they have been taught is mainstream and everything else is the extreme. They have never been taught or encouraged to explore any other concepts than liberal/leftist/progressive ones. In my view that amounts to educational malpractice.

Conversely the very large majority of those of us who were educated by people and/or institutions that provided ALL pertinent information on any given subject or concept and that presented all points of view and encouraged critical thinking are the ones who make up the core of what modern American conservatives, aka classical liberals, aka libertarians (little "L") remain.

 

[Olde Europe]

I was once perplexed at students from ultra-progressive universities who insist that their professors did not promote leftist doctrines. And I came to realize they honestly believe that. Because they have never been allowed or encouraged to see any other point of view, they think what they have been taught is mainstream and everything else is the extreme. They have never been taught or encouraged to explore any other concepts than liberal/leftist/progressive ones. In my view that amounts to educational malpractice.

Please put some meat on these bones. Name two of these "ultra-progressive universities", and two issues on which students were indoctrinated so as to confuse their extremist position with the mainstream, along with the pertinent information of which these students weren't aware. Thanks in advance.

 

[Foxfyre]

I was once perplexed at students from ultra-progressive universities who insist that their professors did not promote leftist doctrines. And I came to realize they honestly believe that. Because they have never been allowed or encouraged to see any other point of view, they think what they have been taught is mainstream and everything else is the extreme. They have never been taught or encouraged to explore any other concepts than liberal/leftist/progressive ones. In my view that amounts to educational malpractice.

Please put some meat on these bones. Name two of these "ultra-progressive universities", and two issues on which students were indoctrinated so as to confuse their extremist position with the mainstream, along with the pertinent information of which these students weren't aware. Thanks in advance.

There's a lot more than two. Separate out the few remaining non-ideologically emphatic universities--George Mason University comes to mind--and the rest are more ideologically oriented than not. Any university that provides 'safe spaces' for students so they don't have to see or hear any concept or idea they do not wish to--progressive ideas and concepts of course are comfortable for them--would qualify as progressively overbalanced.
Safe Spaces On College Campuses Are Creating Intolerant Students | HuffPost

As for myself, my kids, grandchild, great nieces and nephews--I have a LOT of those--have run into a LOT of professors who would grade you down for any conservative position on pretty much anything. It is pathetic that a student is forced to lie or pretend a point of view he/she doesn't hold in order to make a grade. It is pathetic that students who don't learn anything but can recite the right progressive point of view will make good grades.

And you see an increasing number of people who cannot or refuse to see the phenomenon or even consider it as a possiblility and who would attack or diminish any who do.

And such is cultural paradigm in modern times that is most distressing and I think dangerous for our representative republic.

 

[Olde Europe]

There's a lot more than two. Separate out the few remaining non-ideologically emphatic universities--George Mason University comes to mind--and the rest are more ideologically oriented than not. Any university that provides 'safe spaces' for students so they don't have to see or hear any concept or idea they do not wish to--progressive ideas and concepts of course are comfortable for them--would qualify as progressively overbalanced.
Safe Spaces On College Campuses Are Creating Intolerant Students | HuffPost

As for myself, my kids, grandchild, great nieces and nephews--I have a LOT of those--have run into a LOT of professors who would grade you down for any conservative position on pretty much anything. It is pathetic that a student is forced to lie or pretend a point of view he/she doesn't hold in order to make a grade. It is pathetic that students who don't learn anything but can recite the right progressive point of view will make good grades.

And you see an increasing number of people who cannot or refuse to see the phenomenon or even consider it as a possiblility and who would attack or diminish any who do.

And such is cultural paradigm in modern times that is most distressing and I think dangerous for our representative republic.

We agree that "safe spaces" may be problematic in case they distort and curtail scientific learning. And yet, none of the above offers so much as an attempt at answering any aspect of my question. Just to remind you:

Please put some meat on these bones. Name two of these "ultra-progressive universities", and two issues on which students were indoctrinated so as to confuse their extremist position with the mainstream, along with the pertinent information of which these students weren't aware. Thanks in advance.

Your allegation of indoctrination and "educational malpractice" to me looks like Republicans hyperventilating about Biologists not introducing students to the concept of intelligent design - a clearly non-scientific, in fact anti-scientific "theory" - and thus revealing their "progressive bias", distorting "science". I still hope you come up with something better than that.

 

[Foxfyre]

There's a lot more than two. Separate out the few remaining non-ideologically emphatic universities--George Mason University comes to mind--and the rest are more ideologically oriented than not. Any university that provides 'safe spaces' for students so they don't have to see or hear any concept or idea they do not wish to--progressive ideas and concepts of course are comfortable for them--would qualify as progressively overbalanced.
Safe Spaces On College Campuses Are Creating Intolerant Students | HuffPost

As for myself, my kids, grandchild, great nieces and nephews--I have a LOT of those--have run into a LOT of professors who would grade you down for any conservative position on pretty much anything. It is pathetic that a student is forced to lie or pretend a point of view he/she doesn't hold in order to make a grade. It is pathetic that students who don't learn anything but can recite the right progressive point of view will make good grades.

And you see an increasing number of people who cannot or refuse to see the phenomenon or even consider it as a possiblility and who would attack or diminish any who do.

And such is cultural paradigm in modern times that is most distressing and I think dangerous for our representative republic.

We agree that "safe spaces" may be problematic in case they distort and curtail scientific learning. And yet, none of the above offers so much as an attempt at answering any aspect of my question. Just to remind you:

Please put some meat on these bones. Name two of these "ultra-progressive universities", and two issues on which students were indoctrinated so as to confuse their extremist position with the mainstream, along with the pertinent information of which these students weren't aware. Thanks in advance.

Your allegation of indoctrination and "educational malpractice" to me looks like Republicans hyperventilating about Biologists not introducing students to the concept of intelligent design - a clearly non-scientific, in fact anti-scientific "theory" - and thus revealing their "progressive bias", distorting "science". I still hope you come up with something better than that.

What it looks like to you and what it looks like to me do not even remotely coincide.

 

[Olde Europe]

What it looks like to you and what it looks like to me do not even remotely coincide.

So, no answer then. We can thus safely dismiss the accusation of a culture of liberal indoctrination and "educational malpractice" for lack of even anecdotal evidence.

 

[Foxfyre]

What it looks like to you and what it looks like to me do not even remotely coincide.

So, no answer then. We can thus safely dismiss the accusation of a culture of liberal indoctrination and "educational malpractice" for lack of even anecdotal evidence.

That I do not choose to answer as you demand I must is my right. Your attempt to change the discussion to my purported deficiencies/failures is definitely a deflection that I do not choose to participate in. Do have a great afternoon. I certainly am.

 

[Wuwei]

As far as your last paragraph, I think the divide has a tremendous momentum in widening and I see no hope in my lifetime that people will seek compromise. But I have no real feel for the pulse of all America, only the few that make big splashes in the media – removing Confederate statues, shooting up schools, etc.. There is no single culture in America. There are two, the right and the left.

I have to disagree with the part in bold.

There may not be a "single cuture", but the overlap between cultures is huge, and probably orders of magnitude bigger than the non-overlap. The problem isn't differences of culture, but the perennial over-emphasis on a few bones of contention, such as gun rights, abortion, or gay rights, purposely set center stage by political operatives, and meant to mobilize the "base".

But yes, the longer this goes on, the more liberals and conservatives self-segregate into different regions or counties, the more these groups view each other with suspicion, fear and even hate, the more they see themselves as the victims of the respective other group (we've seen some of that on this thread), the wider the gaps will become, and the less likely compromise will be.

I agree with your post with the exception of your first part. I used to live in Detroit a few decades ago, and saw a large difference in culture when I visited relatives in Small-Town Indiana, population 2000. I should not have said the two cultures are left/right when I actually meant urban/rural.

I think you have a different definition of culture than I do. The culture of Americans also have a large overlap with many European and South American cultures if you want to look at it your way. I was focusing on distinguishing features of Americans that lack commonality with other countries.

 

[Wuwei]

But it was those emerging from the rebellion who were certain they could have a part in rejecting the old and creating a brand new world who were the catalyst for a monumental cultural shift.

So they chose to major in journalism/media, in education, in various scientific fields, in curricula that would prepare them to manage the nation's institutions, in entertainment that has always had affect on public opinion. Some went into the ministry where you find maybe the largest cultural divide. You have those denominations that still focus on bringing people to God and living a righteous life and those that focus on radical social change and justice. These sadly consider each other to be misguided if not actually evil.

You make it sound like a concerted effort by liberals to engage in occupations that would allow them to change American culture. Perhaps it is really because liberals do what they enjoy and the same with conservatives. I went into physics and math because I was passionate about it.

Psychiatrist Gail Saltz has an interesting slant on this.
New Studies Show Liberals and Conservatives Have Different Brain Structures

"... what’s been found in several studies is that liberals tend to have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus. That is an area that is responsible for taking in new information and that impact of the new information on decision making or choices. Conservatives tended on the whole to have a larger right amygdala. Amygdala being a deeper brain structure that processes more emotional information—specifically fear-based information," ​

According to her research the above correlation of brain structures and political slant are 69.5% accurate. There may be nothing to the study, but it does point out that culture of different demographics can be due to some sort of internal genetic force that is difficult to change.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with brain structure. Evolutionary changes do not occur within the scope of a half dozen decades. But it does have much to do with societal pressures to conform. I was once perplexed at students from ultra-progressive universities who insist that their professors did not promote leftist doctrines. And I came to realize they honestly believe that. Because they have never been allowed or encouraged to see any other point of view, they think what they have been taught is mainstream and everything else is the extreme. They have never been taught or encouraged to explore any other concepts than liberal/leftist/progressive ones. In my view that amounts to educational malpractice.

Conversely the very large majority of those of us who were educated by people and/or institutions that provided ALL pertinent information on any given subject or concept and that presented all points of view and encouraged critical thinking are the ones who make up the core of what modern American conservatives, aka classical liberals, aka libertarians (little "L") remain.

I'm not saying the brain structure evolved in centuries. I think the different brain structures have been in the gene pool for many millennia. The significance in today's world is what is new.

I have to say that I'm probably one of those who honestly believe that you are wrong in your analysis of "leftist" universities. I have no idea what you think is left out in university classes or the university culture.

I do think you have a disdain and can't bridge the gap between how you and I think. I am trying, but I don't think you are. There may not be any point in continuing this dialog.

 

[Wuwei]

So, this isn’t a discussion about culture? Just another pointless, partisan go-round?

I think you are probably right.

 

[Foxfyre]

But it was those emerging from the rebellion who were certain they could have a part in rejecting the old and creating a brand new world who were the catalyst for a monumental cultural shift.

So they chose to major in journalism/media, in education, in various scientific fields, in curricula that would prepare them to manage the nation's institutions, in entertainment that has always had affect on public opinion. Some went into the ministry where you find maybe the largest cultural divide. You have those denominations that still focus on bringing people to God and living a righteous life and those that focus on radical social change and justice. These sadly consider each other to be misguided if not actually evil.

You make it sound like a concerted effort by liberals to engage in occupations that would allow them to change American culture. Perhaps it is really because liberals do what they enjoy and the same with conservatives. I went into physics and math because I was passionate about it.

Psychiatrist Gail Saltz has an interesting slant on this.
New Studies Show Liberals and Conservatives Have Different Brain Structures

"... what’s been found in several studies is that liberals tend to have a larger anterior cingulate gyrus. That is an area that is responsible for taking in new information and that impact of the new information on decision making or choices. Conservatives tended on the whole to have a larger right amygdala. Amygdala being a deeper brain structure that processes more emotional information—specifically fear-based information," ​

According to her research the above correlation of brain structures and political slant are 69.5% accurate. There may be nothing to the study, but it does point out that culture of different demographics can be due to some sort of internal genetic force that is difficult to change.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with brain structure. Evolutionary changes do not occur within the scope of a half dozen decades. But it does have much to do with societal pressures to conform. I was once perplexed at students from ultra-progressive universities who insist that their professors did not promote leftist doctrines. And I came to realize they honestly believe that. Because they have never been allowed or encouraged to see any other point of view, they think what they have been taught is mainstream and everything else is the extreme. They have never been taught or encouraged to explore any other concepts than liberal/leftist/progressive ones. In my view that amounts to educational malpractice.

Conversely the very large majority of those of us who were educated by people and/or institutions that provided ALL pertinent information on any given subject or concept and that presented all points of view and encouraged critical thinking are the ones who make up the core of what modern American conservatives, aka classical liberals, aka libertarians (little "L") remain.

I'm not saying the brain structure evolved in centuries. I think the different brain structures have been in the gene pool for many millennia. The significance in today's world is what is new.

I have to say that I'm probably one of those who honestly believe that you are wrong in your analysis of "leftist" universities. I have no idea what you think is left out in university classes or the university culture.

I do think you have a disdain and can't bridge the gap between how you and I think. I am trying, but I don't think you are. There may not be any point in continuing this dialog.

And like OldEurope you choose to make it about me/my sin/my deficiency or whatever instead of rebutting what I argue. I am so confident in my observations of the modern American leftism that dominates modern education, especially higher education, the media, many scientific institutions, the entertainment industry, and even religion to a degree that I feel it entirely pertinent to the topic of this thread.

That you disagree with me does not offend me in the least nor diminish you in my perception in any way. I don't think a discussion in which there is no necessity to agree makes bridging any gap as an essential objective. But that you assign a motive or negative inference to my point of view, however, is what makes the discussion pointless.

And, in my opinion, it also affirms my argument as it underscores the most distressing aspect of the shift in cultural paradigm in modern times: i.e. the common, pretty much predictable, attempt to discredit or demonize those who offer perspectives or opinions that do not fit the leftist/progressive/liberal/statist politically correct doctrine.

 

[Wuwei]

And like OldEurope you choose to make it about me/my sin/my deficiency or whatever instead of rebutting what I argue. I am so confident in my observations of the modern American leftism that dominates modern education, especially higher education, the media, many scientific institutions, the entertainment industry, and even religion to a degree that I feel it entirely pertinent to the topic of this thread.

That you disagree with me does not offend me in the least nor diminish you in my perception in any way. I don't think a discussion in which there is no necessity to agree makes bridging any gap as an essential objective. But that you assign a motive or negative inference to my point of view, however, is what makes the discussion pointless.

And, in my opinion, it also affirms my argument as it underscores the most distressing aspect of the shift in cultural paradigm in modern times: i.e. the common, pretty much predictable, attempt to discredit or demonize those who offer perspectives or opinions that do not fit the leftist/progressive/liberal/statist politically correct doctrine.

I have to get on the other side of this bipolar merry-go-round and say that I think you showed a disdain for my field of science as having a political bent. I would prefer this thread move away from Unkotare's observation that it seems to be turning into the usual partisan go-round. I would much rather go beyond simple statements of what leftists dominate and maybe take a path like Olde Europe said -- what are the commonalities and differences. Exactly why do we at the opposite ends feel the way we do. However that would be a digression beyond the scope of the OP.

 

[Foxfyre]

And like OldEurope you choose to make it about me/my sin/my deficiency or whatever instead of rebutting what I argue. I am so confident in my observations of the modern American leftism that dominates modern education, especially higher education, the media, many scientific institutions, the entertainment industry, and even religion to a degree that I feel it entirely pertinent to the topic of this thread.

That you disagree with me does not offend me in the least nor diminish you in my perception in any way. I don't think a discussion in which there is no necessity to agree makes bridging any gap as an essential objective. But that you assign a motive or negative inference to my point of view, however, is what makes the discussion pointless.

And, in my opinion, it also affirms my argument as it underscores the most distressing aspect of the shift in cultural paradigm in modern times: i.e. the common, pretty much predictable, attempt to discredit or demonize those who offer perspectives or opinions that do not fit the leftist/progressive/liberal/statist politically correct doctrine.

I have to get on the other side of this bipolar merry-go-round and say that I think you showed a disdain for my field of science as having a political bent. I would prefer this thread move away from Unkotare's observation that it seems to be turning into the usual partisan go-round. I would much rather go beyond simple statements of what leftists dominate and maybe take a path like Olde Europe said -- what are the commonalities and differences. Exactly why do we at the opposite ends feel the way we do. However that would be a digression beyond the scope of the OP.

The thread is not about how why we feel the way we do. The thread is about whether there has been a shift in cultural paradigms, what shifts if any there have been, and why.

 

[Olde Europe]

I agree with your post with the exception of your first part. I used to live in Detroit a few decades ago, and saw a large difference in culture when I visited relatives in Small-Town Indiana, population 2000. I should not have said the two cultures are left/right when I actually meant urban/rural.

I think you have a different definition of culture than I do. The culture of Americans also have a large overlap with many European and South American cultures if you want to look at it your way. I was focusing on distinguishing features of Americans that lack commonality with other countries.

Differences, of course, catch our attention much more than commonalities do, just as do things that move compared to things that remain in place. Those relatives probably grew up immersed in the same or similar Christian-influenced culture, they celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas, they prefer liberty to servitude, they want to make a living, live in reasonable security, and hope for a brighter future for their kids, and they didn't sacrifice you to some god or goddess, or have you for supper, obviously. Yes, they may have exhibited this or that behavior that seemed "odd", but this stood out because 99% of the rest was the same or reasonably similar.

It doesn't matter whether you call it left-right, or urban-rural, the commonalities still vastly exceed the differences. It's politics that makes Americans forget that, and tries to focus everybody on a few differences to divide the population.

Famously, there was a psychology test. Participants were handed a piece of paper and a pen (half blue, the other half red ones), and they were made to wait in a room together for the test to begin. Lo and behold, when the researchers some minutes later stepped into the room, the participants had sorted themselves according to the color of their pen. That is, I am convinced, what happens in the U.S. of A. right now: Sorting themselves along such utterly meaningless features as the color of their pen.