Is That The Sound of Eyes Opening?

[Annie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...GSNAGAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2005/07/28/nas28.xml

Leading cleric rails at injustice of 'Muslim bashing'
By Nick Britten
(Filed: 28/07/2005)

The most senior Islamic cleric in Birmingham claimed yesterday that Muslims were being unjustly blamed in the war on terrorism and that the eight suspects in the two bombing attacks on London "could have been innocent passengers".

Mohammad Naseem, the chairman of the city's central mosque, called Tony Blair a "liar" and "unreliable witness" and questioned whether CCTV footage issued of the suspected bombers was of the perpetrators.

He said that Muslims "all over the world have never heard of an organisation called al-Qa'eda".

Mr Naseem, who was speaking after police seized Yasin Hassan Omar in Birmingham, delivered his unprompted outburst when he was invited to a press conference with West Midlands police and Birmingham city council to help calm fears of racial or religious tension after the arrest.

It was held near the police cordon in Heybarnes Road, where Omar was arrested.

His comments shocked senior police officers.

Sources said that attempts to encourage Muslims to pass them information on the bombers' activities would be hindered. One said: "We are trying to gain the trust of the Muslim community and these kinds of comments have the opposite effect. All they do is encourage communities to close ranks against us."

To the obvious embarrassment of council officials and police standing next to him, Mr Naseem said the Government and security services "were not to be relied upon".

He said: "Tony Blair has told lies on going to Iraq and in a court of law if a witness has proved to be a liar he ceases to be a reliable witness. So we cannot give our blind trust to the Government.

"To have that trust it is important that the process of law should be independent, open and transparent. I am also sad that unfortunately the impression has been given that Muslims are to be targeted in this war against terror. There seems to be a directive to target Muslims. Why do we not have an open mind about this?

"Muslim bashing seems to be more earnest than the need for national unity and harmony. Terrorists can be anybody - we will have to see [whether the bombers are Muslims]. The process is not open; the process is not transparent; the process is not independent. I do not have faith in the system as it stands."

Mr Naseem is one of the most respected Muslims in the city and is considered a moderate. He has regular meetings with the chief constable to discuss religious harmony.

Mr Naseem said that while it was vital that terrorism was stamped out and that there was never any justification for it, the Government had not helped by going to war in Iraq.

Dismissing the Prime Minister's insistence that the war had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks, he said: "Tony Blair … is not going to be perceived as a reliable witness. His comments could motivate someone to take the law into his own hands.

"Some people have been caught but I have not seen any evidence. The process of law is not open."

Asked about the suspects' DNA being found at the scene of the first attacks, he said: "DNA can match you, but that does not mean you are going to commit a crime. Thousands of youths are passing by and caught on CCTV, so how do you know it is them?"

He added: "We must rely upon trust that we have between communities.

"We must remain united in the fight against terrorism but the process should be independent and open, not like the Hutton inquiry, not like the Lord Butler inquiry." And, in an editorial in The Dawn, the central mosque's newsletter, Mr Naseem writes: "Where is the evidence that four youths whose pictures were caught on CCTV cameras…were the perpetrators? How did we reject the possibility they were just innocent victims of this terrible happening? They had bought return train tickets."

 

[alien21010]

So again we blame the Muslim community as a whole for the actions of a few? Especially when the rest of the Muslim council, along with police officers were embarrassed to hear his comments? Surely you don't believe that just because he makes some wacko comment, that he speaks for the millions of Muslims around the world...

I can take key sentences and phrases out of context from an article too, and say that all Christians are ignorant fools, who possess delusions of grandeur. Would it be factually correct? No. Would it even make sense? No.

Please, stop bolding sections, expecting your readers to only comprehend the bolded parts, and then leap to wild and baseless accusations about an entire religion as a whole.

 

[Annie]

So again we blame the Muslim community as a whole for the actions of a few? Especially when the rest of the Muslim council, along with police officers were embarrassed to hear his comments? Surely you don't believe that just because he makes some wacko comment, that he speaks for the millions of Muslims around the world...

I can take key sentences and phrases out of context from an article too, and say that all Christians are ignorant fools, who possess delusions of grandeur. Would it be factually correct? No. Would it even make sense? No.

Please, stop bolding sections, expecting your readers to only comprehend the bolded parts, and then leap to wild and baseless accusations about an entire religion as a whole.

Not sure what planet you are visiting from, but I can write my posts however I please, within the rules.

Nothing was out of context, all the content was there!

BTW, where did it say that:

rest of the Muslim council, along with police officers were embarrassed to hear his comments?

What I read was:

a press conference with West Midlands police and Birmingham city council to help calm fears of racial or religious tension after the arrest.

 

[alien21010]

Not sure what planet you are visiting from, but I can write my posts however I please, within the rules.

Nothing was out of context, all the content was there!

BTW, where did it say that:

What I read was:

Right here:

To the obvious embarrassment of council officials and police standing next to him, Mr Naseem said the Government and security services "were not to be relied upon".

Furthermore, I feel that I should notify you that copying and pasting whole articles can be construed as copyright infringement. Unless you like lawsuits, I'd suggest just linking to the article in question, rather than copying and pasting the entire thing. Just heads up.

 

[Annie]

Right here:




Furthermore, I feel that I should notify you that copying and pasting whole articles can be construed as copyright infringement. Unless you like lawsuits, I'd suggest just linking to the article in question, rather than copying and pasting the entire thing. Just heads up.

The 'council officials' refers to the city council members previous listed in the article. There is NO MENTION of the Muslim Council, rather you may be refering to the 'mosque' not council that Mr. Naseem was speaking for?

Total citation of article was given, registered site-but thanks for the warning.

 

[alien21010]

The 'council officials' refers to the city council members previous listed in the article. There is NO MENTION of the Muslim Council, rather you may be refering to the 'mosque' not council that Mr. Naseem was speaking for?

Total citation of article was given, registered site-but thanks for the warning.

Heh, whoops. Looks like I mistakenly put Muslim council where City should have been. Oh well, my point still stands that this guy is clearly quite crazy, and that we should not hold any Muslim outside of himself, responsible for his line of thinking.

 

[Annie]

Heh, whoops. Looks like I mistakenly put Muslim council where City should have been. Oh well, my point still stands that this guy is clearly quite crazy, and that we should not hold any Muslim outside of himself, responsible for his line of thinking.

Ah, but I believe the 'leaders' are elected by the mosque? Again,

most senior Islamic cleric in Birmingham claimed yesterday that Muslims were being unjustly blamed in the war on terrorism and that the eight suspects in the two bombing attacks on London "could have been innocent passengers".

Mohammad Naseem, the chairman of the city's central mosque,

 

[alien21010]

I'm not sure how a Muslim mosque works, in terms of the election (if there is one) of a senior cleric. Suffice to say, there is no where near enough evidence here to support the notion that all muslims believe what this man does.

If you ask me, this man is just as bad as Bill O'Reilly, and dozens of other journalists, commenting on a police investigation. No one knows exactly what the police know, therefore everyone's default assumption should be to wait until the case is made and decided before a court of law. Only then can we proclaim someone guilty or innocent. To say otherwise is ignorance in the highest degree.

 

[Annie]

I'm not sure how a Muslim mosque works, in terms of the election (if there is one) of a senior cleric. Suffice to say, there is no where near enough evidence here to support the notion that all muslims believe what this man does.

If you ask me, this man is just as bad as Bill O'Reilly, and dozens of other journalists, commenting on a police investigation. No one knows exactly what the police know, therefore everyone's default assumption should be to wait until the case is made and decided before a court of law. Only then can we proclaim someone guilty or innocent. To say otherwise is ignorance in the highest degree.

Ok, now that we have agreement that your critique of the article was incorrect, you are speaking of generalizing. I'm not sure if you are trying to paint me or the authors, but in either case, where was the leap made onto the whole of Islam?

Look through my posts, I've been here nearly 2 years. You will not find me a xenophobe or ignorant of world events. I do strongly adhere to the constitution NOT being a suicide pact. I also think the UN is a waste of time, has been for at least 30 years. As for Frankin's quote in your signature, MY emphasis would be on the word ESSENTIAL.

While I'm all for picking apart idiotic posts, I'm getting a bit tired this evening with your projections onto myself. You are the one trying to say that an 'awareness' of the dangers of SOME/MOST Islamic leaders thus far-a fact that even Musharraf in Pakistan, Mubarak in Egypt, and Saudi leaders all over the place are beginning to recognize-pose, should be addressed in PC terms. Sorry, for many open-minded, generally non-prejudiced people, that blanket was removed 9/11. Ok, for some it took Bali, Madrid, and Britain too. Ok, there are some like you, apparently, that may never get it.

Why do I bet you would be the first to respond with some of the 'fatwas' issued within the last few days as being signs of 'Muslim Unity?' Problem is, you would have to overcome those imams in Indonesia, Pakistan, Britain, and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Annie]

Whoops, and another from the US:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/29/AR2005072900478_pf.html

Religion in the News

By MATTHEW BARAKAT
The Associated Press
Friday, July 29, 2005; 7:26 AM

FALLS CHURCH, Va. -- The voice of the new imam at one of the largest mosques on the East Coast rang loud from the pulpit during Friday services: "The call to reform Islam is an alien call."

People who do not understand Islam are the ones seeking to change it, said Shaker Elsayed, the new spiritual leader at the Dar al-Hijrah mosque in the northern Virginia suburbs of Washington. "Ignorance comes from outside circles who know nothing about us."

Though his role as the mosque's religious leader is a new one, Elsayed is well known as a civic activist in a large Muslim community that has been subject to sharp scrutiny ever since the Sept. 11 attacks. His face is a familiar one at the federal courthouse in Alexandria, where he has lent support to area Muslims he sees as victims of a federal witch hunt _ from those prosecuted for immigration violations to soliciting treason.

Elsayed, who assumed duties as imam on June 1, also has served as secretary general of the Muslim American Society. Some federal authorities and U.S. Muslim leaders suspect the advocacy group has links with the Muslim Brotherhood, a seminal anti-Western group that has inspired other hard line Islamic organizations. Elsayed, however, said he is not a member of the Brotherhood.

He has also served as an unofficial spokesman for the family of Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, who is accused of joining al-Qaida while studying overseas and plotting to assassinate President Bush. Abu Ali grew up in Falls Church, and worshipped at Dar al-Hijrah....

 

[alien21010]

Ok, now that we have agreement that your critique of the article was incorrect, you are speaking of generalizing. I'm not sure if you are trying to paint me or the authors, but in either case, where was the leap made onto the whole of Islam?

Look through my posts, I've been here nearly 2 years. You will not find me a xenophobe or ignorant of world events. I do strongly adhere to the constitution NOT being a suicide pact. I also think the UN is a waste of time, has been for at least 30 years. As for Frankin's quote in your signature, MY emphasis would be on the word ESSENTIAL.

While I'm all for picking apart idiotic posts, I'm getting a bit tired this evening with your projections onto myself. You are the one trying to say that an 'awareness' of the dangers of SOME/MOST Islamic leaders thus far-a fact that even Musharraf in Pakistan, Mubarak in Egypt, and Saudi leaders all over the place are beginning to recognize-pose, should be addressed in PC terms. Sorry, for many open-minded, generally non-prejudiced people, that blanket was removed 9/11. Ok, for some it took Bali, Madrid, and Britain too. Ok, there are some like you, apparently, that may never get it.

Why do I bet you would be the first to respond with some of the 'fatwas' issued within the last few days as being signs of 'Muslim Unity?' Problem is, you would have to overcome those imams in Indonesia, Pakistan, Britain, and Saudi Arabia.

The only truly open minded people are those who can forgive and forget past transgressions made by a person. But you're right... I can't blame an entire religion for the actions of a few people. It is however, readily apparent that you are trying to slander the Islamic community as a whole.

Come on, do you really have the audacity to continue posting articles that serve no purpose but to slander Muslims, and tell me that you're not generalizing? If so then what purpose do these posts serve? While I truly want to believe that your intentions are sincere, there is more to this than meets the eye...

You're right... There is the sound of eyes opening.

 

[Annie]

The only truly open minded people are those who can forgive and forget past transgressions made by a person. But you're right... I can't blame an entire religion for the actions of a few people. It is however, readily apparent that you are trying to slander the Islamic community as a whole.

Come on, do you really have the audacity to continue posting articles that serve no purpose but to slander Muslims, and tell me that you're not generalizing? If so then what purpose do these posts serve? While I truly want to believe that your intentions are sincere, there is more to this than meets the eye...

You're right... There is the sound of eyes opening.

Well if you are determined to try and pigeon hole me and my posts, good luck. There is a difference between becoming aware that sometimes what we think is the 'fringe', in this case the bombers, may actually be revealing the truth, as they see it.

Whether or not Islam is as hateful as it appears to be, just in the past 30 years or so, remains to be seen. If I see a real change in tone, I'd agree with you. I haven't, as I've already shown.

 

[alien21010]

Well if you are determined to try and pigeon hole me and my posts, good luck. There is a difference between becoming aware that sometimes what we think is the 'fringe', in this case the bombers, may actually be revealing the truth, as they see it.

Whether or not Islam is as hateful as it appears to be, just in the past 30 years or so, remains to be seen. If I see a real change in tone, I'd agree with you. I haven't, as I've already shown.

Thank you for vindicating everything in this thread that I have said about you.

I think that you harbor great resentment for the attacks of 9/11, and that said attacks personally affected you in some manor. I do not mean to pry, but did you know someone who was killed/injured in the attacks?

 

[Annie]

Thank you for vindicating everything in this thread that I have said about you.

I think that you harbor great resentment for the attacks of 9/11, and that said attacks personally affected you in some manor. I do not mean to pry, but did you know someone who was killed/injured in the attacks?

Not quite sure how you get from there to here. (9/11 was nearly 5 years ago. Iranian hostage crisis nearly 30 years ago.)

See here's the problem. The Iranian hostage thing, well that was an act of war. At the same time, the Shah was a bad guy, in many ways, that the US had propped up.

Short version, for many years, at least up to the African bombings/USS Cole, I personally thought it was at least 'partially' our fault. Not with those though, after Bosnia it became more than obvious that it was NOT US prejudice against the Muslims. 9/11 'sealed' the need to act. It's not going to end any time soon, unless the Muslims themselves stop the exporting of terror.

 

[mattskramer]

There is no such thing equivalent to a "Pope" in Islam. Each group has its own leader. Those Muslim groups who advocated terrorism in the past were to Islam what those who participated in the Spanish Inquisition, were to Christianity. They are to Islam today as the deluded Jim Jones and David Koresh followers were to Christianity.

 

[alien21010]

Not quite sure how you get from there to here. (9/11 was nearly 5 years ago. Iranian hostage crisis nearly 30 years ago.)

See here's the problem. The Iranian hostage thing, well that was an act of war. At the same time, the Shah was a bad guy, in many ways, that the US had propped up.

Short version, for many years, at least up to the African bombings/USS Cole, I personally thought it was at least 'partially' our fault. Not with those though, after Bosnia it became more than obvious that it was NOT US prejudice against the Muslims. 9/11 'sealed' the need to act. It's not going to end any time soon, unless the Muslims themselves stop the exporting of terror.

Which is not the only time the US has propped up a dictator for short term gains. *cough* Saddam Hussein *cough*

The fundamentalist Muslims dont hate us without reason. Removing our unconditional support for Israel, and taking more of an objective position... Would go far in the eyes of the Palestinians and other Arabs.

I personally don't blame the Arabs for mistrusting the United States. Look at what we have done to the region since we started meddling in the area. Not only have we routinely tried to enact pro-American leaderships (the vast majority of which have failed miserably), but we continually provide them fuel for their growing flame. Bush labelling Iran a member of the "axis of the evil" only inflammed their growing hatred for the United States.

This is very much a war for hearts and minds. I can tell you right now, that we are losing this war with the people who are most susceptible to becoming terrorists.

 

[Annie]

There is no such thing equivalent to a "Pope" in Islam. Each group has its own leader. Those Muslim groups who advocated terrorism in the past were to Islam what those who participated in the Spanish Inquisition, were to Christianity. They are to Islam today as the deluded Jim Jones and David Koresh followers were to Christianity.

Matts, what are you responding to?

 

[Annie]

Which is not the only time the US has propped up a dictator for short term gains. *cough* Saddam Hussein *cough*

OK.

The fundamentalist Muslims dont hate us without reason. Removing our unconditional support for Israel, and taking more of an objective position... Would go far in the eyes of the Palestinians and other Arabs.

prove that. We have given millions upon millions to the Palestinians and Egyptians. Or do you mean that we should agree with the anhilation of Israel?

I personally don't blame the Arabs for mistrusting the United States. Look at what we have done to the region since we started meddling in the area. Not only have we routinely tried to enact pro-American leaderships (the vast majority of which have failed miserably), but we continually provide them fuel for their growing flame. Bush labelling Iran a member of the "axis of the evil" only inflammed their growing hatred for the United States.

What is one to do with this? Already stated a gimme for Saddam and the Shah, but never as unequivocal as many would have one believe. Yeah, we backed Sadat. So? Can't be wrong all the time. Now who killed him? Which of our Presidents won a Noble Prize, along with a terrorist from the Palestinian region? (Whoops).

In all honesty, the 'growing flame' is losing me. Is it an analogy? A metaphor? What?

This is very much a war for hearts and minds. I can tell you right now, that we are losing this war with the people who are most susceptible to becoming terrorists.

And if we weren't doing what we are doing, what would be your vision of an outcome?

 

[mattskramer]

Matts, what are you responding to?

Oooops. I need remember to take each person here as an individual. I briefly made the mistake that at least one person here had about me - At first glance I though that you were like those who would take one person's comment and conclude that he speaks for everyone within his group on all issues. Nevermind. I retract my last post.

 

[alien21010]

prove that. We have given millions upon millions to the Palestinians and Egyptians. Or do you mean that we should agree with the anhilation of Israel?

Here's an article that I think you should take a look at:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20020520ftr.html

What is one to do with this? Already stated a gimme for Saddam and the Shah, but never as unequivocal as many would have one believe. Yeah, we backed Sadat. So? Can't be wrong all the time. Now who killed him? Which of our Presidents won a Noble Prize, along with a terrorist from the Palestinian region? (Whoops).

In all honesty, the 'growing flame' is losing me. Is it an analogy? A metaphor? What?

Iran-Contra? Care to do some research on that one, or is old Ollie North too much for you to handle?

Try a metaphor on for size.