is it u.s. of america or u.s. of atheists?

[JakeStarkey]

You can pray in school so long as it (1) does not disrupt the educational process; (2) be intrusive to people near you; and (3) the tax payer's dollar is not supporting your effort.

Some remind me why this is an issue.

 

[jillian]

1) No, the ACLU got that one changed. I may still exist in their constitution but it is of no effect.

2) The government donates money to abortion clinics to kill babies too.

3)Gay marriage isn't allowed because gay's aren't going to ruin marriage for everyone else. They can gladly have their own term.

4) I don't think anyone is "forced" to go to any religious service but if so and they refuse are they sent to jail like Christians who pray in school are?

1. It shouldn't be of any effect. The first amendment prohibits the government sanctioning any religion. I don't think you're correct though. I think there's a provision in the Texas Constitution that says someone running for office can subscribe to any religion so long as he or she subscribes to a belief in a higher being.

2. The Hyde Amendment prohibits the use of Federal Funds to pay for abortion, so you're either uninformed, misinformed or lying. And the concept of a zygote as "baby" is purely a religious debate.

3. No... the gay marriage debate centers around religion.

4. Christians who pray in school are jailed? Really? Do show proof of this. How 'bout this... if you can't not pray for a few hours in public school, you should go to parochial school? Mmmmkay?

 

[paperview]

1) No, the ACLU got that one changed. I may still exist in their constitution but it is of no effect.

2) The government donates money to abortion clinics to kill babies too.

3)Gay marriage isn't allowed because gay's aren't going to ruin marriage for everyone else. They can gladly have their own term.

4) I don't think anyone is "forced" to go to any religious service but if so and they refuse are they sent to jail like Christians who pray in school are?

1. It shouldn't be of any effect. The first amendment prohibits the government sanctioning any religion. I don't think you're correct though. I think there's a provision in the Texas Constitution that says someone running for office can subscribe to any religion so long as he or she subscribes to a belief in a higher being.

2. The Hyde Amendment prohibits the use of Federal Funds to pay for abortion, so you're either uninformed, misinformed or lying. And the concept of a zygote as "baby" is purely a religious debate.

3. No... the gay marriage debate centers around religion.

4. Christians who pray in school are jailed? Really? Do show proof of this. How 'bout this... if you can't not pray for a few hours in public school, you should go to parochial school? Mmmmkay?

Great post.

And that last one: Pray in school and go to jail? WHAT?

I'd really like to see evidence of Christians who were put in jail for praying.

Do some of these moonbats really believe this bullshit?

 

[jillian]

i agree i dont want tax dollars going there either. and i'm all for everyone believing what they will. but, what about prayer in schools and in gov places where's our right. why should that offend you?

because it ISN'T your right. First Amendment says so...

You think Muslims should conduct prayers in public schools?
How about Jews?

oh wait... you only want Christians, the "majority" to be able to do that...

which is EXACTLY why the First Amendment says no...

 

[jillian]

Great post.

And that last one: Pray in school and go to jail? WHAT?

I'd really like to see evidence of Christians who were put in jail for praying.

Do some of these moonbats really believe this bullshit?

Thank you.

I actually found out what he's talking about.

There's a school district in Florida where the principal and a gym teacher were illegally running prayer meetings. After a suit was brought,

Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9, under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events,"

School brass facing prison time for luncheon prayer - CNN.com

They violated the consent decree which has the same weight as a court order, so are in jeopardy of being jailed for CONTEMPT (not for prayer)...

 

[paperview]

Great post.

And that last one: Pray in school and go to jail? WHAT?

I'd really like to see evidence of Christians who were put in jail for praying.

Do some of these moonbats really believe this bullshit?

Thank you.

I actually found out what he's talking about.

There's a school district in Florida where the principal and a gym teacher were illegally running prayer meetings. After a suit was brought,

Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9, under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events,"

School brass facing prison time for luncheon prayer - CNN.com

They violated the consent decree which has the same weight as a court order, so are in jeopardy of being jailed for CONTEMPT (not for prayer)...

I see.
So this one (rare) case, and it's about violating a court order, not being hauled off to prison for praying in school.

Thanks for that Jillian.

 

[jillian]

I see.
So this one (rare) case, and it's about violating a court order, not being hauled off to prison for praying in school.

Thanks for that Jillian.

No worries. You're right, no one is being hauled off to prison for praying.

 

[froggy]

Dozens of athletes prayed after a Friday night ballgame without their coaches, and the criminal defense fund for Frank Lay and Robert Freemen continues to grow.

After last Friday night’s Pace High versus Navarre High School game, football players and cheerleaders from both schools gathered together on the field for prayer. Noticeably absent were the coaches and adult leaders from both schools.


In meantime to the legal defense fund for Lay and Freeman has grown to nearly $38,000. Lay, the Pace High School principal, and Freeman, Pace athletic director, face federal criminal charges for praying before a meal at a field house dedication despite an order against prayer in Santa Rosa County Schools issued in response to an ACLU lawsuit.

Started on Monday, August 3, the fund was at $5,220 by Thursday, August 6. By Monday, the fund balance was at $38,818.57. The funds will be used to pay the legal expenses for Lay and Freeman, and fund organizers say that if there are any funds leftover after all legal fees are paid, they will be donated to the Liberty Counsel. The non-profit Liberty Counsel provides legal services and actively fights the ACLU. The Liberty Counsel was actively involved in the defense of Michelle Winkler, recently by a federal judge on charges she violated the no-prayer order. (Read more here.)

The Farmer’s Opry in Chumuckla will hold a benefit concert and supper on September 10 from 5:30 until. The Saw Mill Band, the Hendersons and Crossroads will perform. The event, which includes a hamburger, french fry and baked bean supper, will begin at 5:30.

A web site set up for the two men, layfreemandefense.com, asks supporters to make donations to the Lay and Freeman Defense Fund at any First National Bank of Florida. The site is also selling t-shirts for $10 and lists other events in support of the fund.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit in federal court almost a year ago against the Santa Rosa School District, Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and then-Santa Rosa Superintendent John Rogers. The suit alleged that Santa Rosa County Schools “persistently and persuasively promote their personal religious beliefs in the public schools and at school events”.

A federal court order earlier this year prohibited, among other things, any prayer in schools, “reading from a sacred text”, “calling upon a deity to offer guidance, assistance or a blessing” and religious services such as baccalaureate services. There are circumstances were student-led prayers are permissible, but school employees are prohibited to participate in the prayer, even prohibited from “a posture or manner that is likely to be perceived as an endorsement of prayer, e.g. bowing their heads, kneeling or folding their hands”.

The ACLU has requested documents from Escambia County Schools, prompting the district to err on the side of caution when it comes to prayer at organized school events.
the movement against atheistism grows stronger we'll not give in.

 

[mskafka]

Sure, I'll concede many of the founders were deists, but they definitely were not pervasively Christians. The author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson was definitely an outspoken critic of Christianity. (Read his "Bible" for example) Not to say Christians should not practice their religion and have the freedom of religion we all should enjoy. However, the US Constitution in the first amendment states:



I am an atheist, but I don't want to shut down churches or prevent parents from teaching their religion to children. I just want to make sure my tax dollars don't go to support your religious institutions and I want the government to remain secular so we all can freely believe whatever we want.

i agree i dont want tax dollars going there either. and i'm all for everyone believing what they will. but, what about prayer in schools and in gov places where's our right. why should that offend you?

why do you want to put your prayer on DISPLAY when the Bible and Christ have taught us how to pray and where it should take place, and in public, for show, IS NOT ONE of them?

and we are allowed to pray in school or anywhere in the public, protected by the first amendment, both the religion clause and the free speech clause covers such.

What is not allowed is for a gvt paid employee, such as a teacher or principle, or football coach leading students in prayer is my understanding of the law and how the SC has interpreted the constitution as of late.

when i was in school we had prayer in the morning before or after the pledge...

care

Yes. Matthew 6:5-8. I was going to mention that and you beat me to it. It is perplexing...these people who feel that they have somehow been cheated. How do you pray? You pray in silence. It seems to me that this is what is pleasing to God.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any who are using the prayer issue for political purposes are displeasing to God.

 

[mskafka]

Froggy, I totally understand your frustration. An ACLU lawsuit was filed the day of my high school graduation, and we were not allowed to have prayer at the graduation. And this was after a school shooting 3 years prior. At the time I was very angry. But then empathy overcame me, and I decided to look deeper into the issue.

On doing some research on Pace, Florida, or Santa Rosa County-I discovered the reason that this lawsuit may have been filed.

At the Association of Religion Data Archives, I found some very telling information. There is a very diverse population.

In the 2000 census, there were roughly 117,000 citizens living in Santa Rosa County. Here is the breakdown of religions and faiths from the website that I cited:

68,802-"unclaimed"
29,843-Evangelical Protestant
6,230- Catholic
1,581- other (Bahai's, Church of Christ Scientist, Latter-Day Saints, Jains, Jewish, Unitarian Universalist)
11,237- Mainline Protestant

Some Catholics feel that Protestant prayers are inadequate, and irreverant (to God as they understand Him).
Imagine yourself in a big room, and a Rabbi starts a Ma'ariv. (ackward)
Would you feel comfortable if a Jainist began to preach on karma?

We may be a primarily Christian nation, but the original citizens of this country as you know, were not Christians. My maternal ancestors were Chickasaw. You probably have Native American ancestry as well. I'm not sure which church or faith you belong to. But we cannot force other people to worship as we do. You know...many of them are like you. They would feel uncomfortable, and feel as if they were being disrespectful to their lord or god if they were forced to stand in silence as if they were agreeing with the prayer.

Okay, done.

 

[froggy]

so what about the dieing soldier the chaplin doesn't get to pray with him because the atheist beside him doesn't want to hear it wheres his right ?

 

[THE LIGHT]

1) No, the ACLU got that one changed. I may still exist in their constitution but it is of no effect.

2) The government donates money to abortion clinics to kill babies too.

3)Gay marriage isn't allowed because gay's aren't going to ruin marriage for everyone else. They can gladly have their own term.

4) I don't think anyone is "forced" to go to any religious service but if so and they refuse are they sent to jail like Christians who pray in school are?

1. It shouldn't be of any effect. The first amendment prohibits the government sanctioning any religion. I don't think you're correct though. I think there's a provision in the Texas Constitution that says someone running for office can subscribe to any religion so long as he or she subscribes to a belief in a higher being.

2. The Hyde Amendment prohibits the use of Federal Funds to pay for abortion, so you're either uninformed, misinformed or lying. And the concept of a zygote as "baby" is purely a religious debate.

3. No... the gay marriage debate centers around religion.

4. Christians who pray in school are jailed? Really? Do show proof of this. How 'bout this... if you can't not pray for a few hours in public school, you should go to parochial school? Mmmmkay?

1) The Constitution is in place to limit what the government does to the people. Therefore the First Amendment limits the government from establishing a mandated State or Federal Religion but has nothing to do with limiting government from imposing restrictions on itself. The founding fathers saw the example of a morally corrupt Rome and realized that a Christian government would have a greater chance of moral restraint from tyranny but also noted that a federal government with to much power would not be a good idea. Thus they left it up to the states to draft more specific constitutions with the limitations they saw fit. Again these constitutions though requiring government to recognize the Christian God were still in agreement with the First Amendment since they did not establish a mandated government on the people. If you knew your history of why the Founding Fathers came to America you would know why the Constitution says what it says, but since you do not know your history you are perfectly clueless.

2) Planned Parenthood gets over $100 million dollars annually to kill babies so quit being ignorant mmmmkay? And yes it is a purly religious debate. That's what this whole friggin thread was about in case you weren't paying attention.

3) Yes it does. Religious Gays trying to destroy the sanctity of "marriage."

4) How bout this, if you can't stand hearing someone pray to themselves during their lunch break, mind your own business. And can you please provide me an instance where someone got thrown in jail for not attending church while in the army? How about if you are so offended by it you don't join?

 

[THE LIGHT]

when did it change to we the atheist? what happened to majority rules.

Wake me up when we elect an athiest President.

But wait, isn't this a atheistic country? With the overwhelming majority of Atheists founding this country you would have thought they could have scrapped up at least one atheistic bigot to run for pres.

 

[THE LIGHT]

<snip>

The federal government donates money to religious groups and reduce funding to nonreligious groups. This forces athesists who could be on down times, have a drug problem, etc. to go to a church.

<snip>

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God forbid they actually have to courteously ask me for my money and risk getting my philosophy that goes with it. Why not let them steal my money so they don't have to hear the word God. Novel idea.

Notice no atheist would give a friggin dime unless they were forced to. O yeah, that's why the Founding Fathers said Christianity was a good thing.

Here is an idea. Being such that compassionate and concerned individual that you are, why don't you go help those people out with your own money so they don't have to go to church? You have the power to do it. The thing is you don't really care about them. You just hate Christianity.

 

[mskafka]

so what about the dieing soldier the chaplin doesn't get to pray with him because the atheist beside him doesn't want to hear it wheres his right ?

Do you know of an instance of this happening? Last rites and other final prayers (whatever they are called) are usually somewhat personal, if family is not there. Seriously, tell me about it if this has happened.

 

[Shogun]

First Amendment, dogma junkie. Deal with it.

 

[Smartt33]

Name an atheist that has been elected to public office. A prominent office.

Name a few who have tried to be elected, and should by experience and plan be elected.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

1) The Constitution is in place to limit what the government does to the people. Therefore the First Amendment limits the government from establishing a mandated State or Federal Religion but has nothing to do with limiting government from imposing restrictions on itself. The founding fathers saw the example of a morally corrupt Rome and realized that a Christian government would have a greater chance of moral restraint from tyranny but also noted that a federal government with to much power would not be a good idea. Thus they left it up to the states to draft more specific constitutions with the limitations they saw fit. Again these constitutions though requiring government to recognize the Christian God were still in agreement with the First Amendment since they did not establish a mandated government on the people. If you knew your history of why the Founding Fathers came to America you would know why the Constitution says what it says, but since you do not know your history you are perfectly clueless.[/FONT][/COLOR]

2) Planned Parenthood gets over $100 million dollars annually to kill babies so quit being ignorant mmmmkay? And yes it is a purly religious debate. That's what this whole friggin thread was about in case you weren't paying attention.

3) Yes it does. Religious Gays trying to destroy the sanctity of "marriage."

4) How bout this, if you can't stand hearing someone pray to themselves during their lunch break, mind your own business. And can you please provide me an instance where someone got thrown in jail for not attending church while in the army? How about if you are so offended by it you don't join?

1. The establishment clause seems to be clear in that no religion should dictate public policy. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." That extends far beyond the government merely establishing a official state religion. Yeah, many of the bill of rights protections, including the first amendments establishment clause, were not applied to the states until the 14th Amendment and then the idea of complete incorporation in the early to mid twentieth century. At this point those constitutions became unconstitutional and rightfully so. And alot of people came to america for religious freedom so long as you believed and practiced religion as they did... Puritans and many other such early american settlers were not in favor of diversity of religion.

2. We live in a secular democracy so religion shouldnt realy matter in public policy debate. Laws are made pursuant to the constitution not the bible. Our government isnt a christian government at all.

3. Heteroxeual christians have already done their part and helped to destroy the "sancity of marriage." And marriage isnt exclusive to or originally christian. So christians do not have a monopoly on the word or concept of marriage.

 

[THE LIGHT]

1) The Constitution is in place to limit what the government does to the people. Therefore the First Amendment limits the government from establishing a mandated State or Federal Religion but has nothing to do with limiting government from imposing restrictions on itself. The founding fathers saw the example of a morally corrupt Rome and realized that a Christian government would have a greater chance of moral restraint from tyranny but also noted that a federal government with to much power would not be a good idea. Thus they left it up to the states to draft more specific constitutions with the limitations they saw fit. Again these constitutions though requiring government to recognize the Christian God were still in agreement with the First Amendment since they did not establish a mandated government on the people. If you knew your history of why the Founding Fathers came to America you would know why the Constitution says what it says, but since you do not know your history you are perfectly clueless.[/font][/color]

2) Planned Parenthood gets over $100 million dollars annually to kill babies so quit being ignorant mmmmkay? And yes it is a purly religious debate. That's what this whole friggin thread was about in case you weren't paying attention.

3) Yes it does. Religious Gays trying to destroy the sanctity of "marriage."

4) How bout this, if you can't stand hearing someone pray to themselves during their lunch break, mind your own business. And can you please provide me an instance where someone got thrown in jail for not attending church while in the army? How about if you are so offended by it you don't join?

1. The establishment clause seems to be clear in that no religion should dictate public policy. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." That extends far beyond the government merely establishing a official state religion. Yeah, many of the bill of rights protections, including the first amendments establishment clause, were not applied to the states until the 14th Amendment and then the idea of complete incorporation in the early to mid twentieth century. At this point those constitutions became unconstitutional and rightfully so. And alot of people came to america for religious freedom so long as you believed and practiced religion as they did... Puritans and many other such early american settlers were not in favor of diversity of religion.

2. We live in a secular democracy so religion shouldnt realy matter in public policy debate. Laws are made pursuant to the constitution not the bible. Our government isnt a christian government at all.

3. Heteroxeual christians have already done their part and helped to destroy the "sancity of marriage." And marriage isnt exclusive to or originally christian. So christians do not have a monopoly on the word or concept of marriage.

1) Where do you find the words Congress shall not restrict government from being Christian?

1) What does that have to do with point number 2 at all?

3) It is exclusively heterosexual. Um... What is that thingy (also known as a person) that conducts the ceremony? No ... no ... definitly not Christian.