Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?

[admonit]

IMHO:

1. In answer to the thread title's question: NO, of course not.

2. Friend and foe alike agree that the Israelis are extremely intelligent and innovative people.

a. They can certainly find a non-lethal way to stop future border incursions, which Hamas promises to have more of.


3. Hamas scored a public relations bonanza with the death of those 50+ (technically) unarmed protesters.

4. Israel is a democracy, so more such deadly encounters are out of the question.

*****

In 1960 in South Africa in a town called Sharpeville, (Caucasian) authorities killed more than 60 unarmed (black) protesters. Some historians tell us that it was a turning point in the fight against apartheid.

I think that the killing of those 50+ Palestinians (including that baby) may be some kind of turning point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Palestinians in Gaza can dream about pogroms in Israeli towns and villages, but anyone who will try to implement this devilish plan by breaching the border will be shot. Period. There is a general consensus in Israeli society about it.

 

[Billo_Really]

Yeah, actually it does. You live with criminals, you die with criminals.

I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.

The rest of us are not immoral and evil scum like you. Sorry, but you really are a flat out lesser person, than all the good people in this world.

Flat out.... hear it again.... if you are member of a terrorist organization, and you are attempting to break through a boarder on purpose with the intent to kill the people on the other side..... yes. You deserve to die, and I don't care when you do.

It's obvious you don't embrace American values? But you do like being a little Israeli *****! How do you "break through" an undefined border, with a 300 meter buffer zone on your own property?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Yeah, actually it does. You live with criminals, you die with criminals.

I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.

The rest of us are not immoral and evil scum like you. Sorry, but you really are a flat out lesser person, than all the good people in this world.

Flat out.... hear it again.... if you are member of a terrorist organization, and you are attempting to break through a boarder on purpose with the intent to kill the people on the other side..... yes. You deserve to die, and I don't care when you do.

It's obvious you don't embrace American values? But you do like being a little Israeli *****! How do you "break through" an undefined border, with a 300 meter buffer zone on your own property?

Keep dreaming up your excuses, Billo.

They work only in your mind.

 

[Billo_Really]

Because they are not innocent. They are attacking Israeli. They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
There is nothing innocent about that, and shooting people who intend to murder others, is not bad.

It's a good thing, and the Israelis need to keep doing that, until all would-be murderers are dead.

You're a "would-be murderer", should someone shoot you?

 

[Hollie]

Yeah, actually it does. You live with criminals, you die with criminals.

I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.

The rest of us are not immoral and evil scum like you. Sorry, but you really are a flat out lesser person, than all the good people in this world.

Flat out.... hear it again.... if you are member of a terrorist organization, and you are attempting to break through a boarder on purpose with the intent to kill the people on the other side..... yes. You deserve to die, and I don't care when you do.

It's obvious you don't embrace American values? But you do like being a little Israeli *****! How do you "break through" an undefined border, with a 300 meter buffer zone on your own property?

That’s pretty darn funny. Embracing American values is defined by embracing Islamic terrorist values.

Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.

It’s really remarkable how you internet gee-had wannabes are so quick to emulate your hamas terrorist “leadership”. You’re very quick to urge the vacant-minded minions to “take one for your man-god, Muhammud”, but both you and the Hamas leadership are nowhere to be seen when the in-coming starts.

 

[Billo_Really]

The problem I have with your argument is that you keep claiming to support a two state solution, with both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, along the Green Line. But you keep bringing up arguments which align with a rejection of ANY Jewish sovereignty. It makes your argument inconsistent or deliberately deceptive.

How can I be for "both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty" AND reject "any Jewish sovereignty", at the same time? I'll put it another way, how can I reject Jewish sovereignty and be for a two state solution?

Much like your other arguments, this one makes no sense, either.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Because they are not innocent. They are attacking Israeli. They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
There is nothing innocent about that, and shooting people who intend to murder others, is not bad.

It's a good thing, and the Israelis need to keep doing that, until all would-be murderers are dead.

You're a "would-be murderer", should someone shoot you?

Your empty words continue to be meaningless. You live in an alternative world and that is your business, not Israel's.

Israel will continue to do what it needs to protect all of its population from those who want to kill them.

Here is why the added buffer zone exists. Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.
-----

The barrier was largely torn down by Palestinians at the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000, followed by many terror attacks.[6] The barrier was rebuilt between December 2000 and June 2001. A one-kilometer buffer zone was added, in addition to new high technology observation posts. Soldiers were also given new rules of engagement,[6] which, according to Ha'aretz, allow soldiers to fire at anyone seen crawling there at night illegally into Israeli territory.[7] Palestinians attempting to cross the barrier into Israel by stealth have been shot and killed.[8]

The barrier's effectiveness prompted a shift in the tactics of Palestinian militants who commenced firing Qassam rockets and mortars over the barrier.[6][9]

The barrier has been effective in preventing terrorists and suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. Since 1996, virtually all suicide bombers trying to leave Gaza have detonated their charges at the barrier's crossing points and were stopped while trying to cross the barrier elsewhere.[10][11] From 1994 until 2004 a suicide bomber originating from within the Gaza Strip successfully carried out an attack in Israel (the March 14, 2004 attack in Ashdod).[12]

Israel–Gaza barrier - Wikipedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.

A line of goons with guns does not make a border.

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, actually it does. You live with criminals, you die with criminals.

I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.

The rest of us are not immoral and evil scum like you. Sorry, but you really are a flat out lesser person, than all the good people in this world.

Flat out.... hear it again.... if you are member of a terrorist organization, and you are attempting to break through a boarder on purpose with the intent to kill the people on the other side..... yes. You deserve to die, and I don't care when you do.

It's obvious you don't embrace American values? But you do like being a little Israeli *****! How do you "break through" an undefined border, with a 300 meter buffer zone on your own property?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

Undefined border.... and yet there is a big fence.... which seems to define a border.

You realize of course, the whole reason there is a border, is because the Gaza people were killing Isrealis.

Let me give your tiny little brain, a theoretical..... do you think if Mexicans were rushing into the US, killing people, that we'd have a wall along the border years, if not decades ago?

Yes we would. And we'd be shooting people who tried to breach the border. Guarantee it.

So why do you have a problem with Israel taking a much more restrained approach? Because your a dirty terrorist supporting trash of a human being. Simple as that.

 

[Andylusion]

Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.

A line of goons with guns does not make a border.

Yeah, well try and cross it, when those goons with guns start shooting you. Sure looks like a border to me.

 

[Andylusion]

Because they are not innocent. They are attacking Israeli. They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
There is nothing innocent about that, and shooting people who intend to murder others, is not bad.

It's a good thing, and the Israelis need to keep doing that, until all would-be murderers are dead.

You're a "would-be murderer", should someone shoot you?

You have the right to be an ignorant fool who is consistently wrong.

As for trying to shoot me, come try it. Fool. If this is the best argument you have for supporting terrorist, then you have no argument. Keep talking fool.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.

Egypt put its buffer on its own side of the border,

Unlike the Israeli freeloaders.

 

[Billo_Really]

Your post amounts to:

Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.

Principle #2 -- Only direct threats to your life permit lethal force.

Principle #3 -- Israel has a policy of shooting all Palestinians based solely on their "Palestinianness".


I agree with your Principle #1. It is the foundation of the moral and legal idea of self-defense. If someone attacks you, you are an idiot not to shoot back. So the dispute we would have is whether or not Israel is "really" being attacked.

You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed. You are not being attacked if your border fence is on someone else's property. You are not being attacked, if you have a buffer zone that is on someone else's property. Burning a tire, is not an attack. A peaceful protest, is not an attack. Throwing a rock, is not a threat to your life, or your fence.

Snipers shooting people in cold blood, is an attack. Drones dropping fire bombs on tents, is an attack. Shooting tear gas at babies, is an attack. Shooting people fishing and farming, is an attack. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people, is an attack.

I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2. I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives. So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.

Wrong! It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible. Making up bullshit reasons to kill people, is just pure evil. You make such a fine German.

There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader. You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier"). Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves. Which is bullshit.

You are not defending yourself when you occupy someone else's property. You are initiating the violence.

Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel. And a blatant rejection of reality. Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.

Is a guy in a wheel chair a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is an 8 month old baby, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is someone fishing or farming, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?

 

[Andylusion]

Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.

Egypt put its buffer on its own side of the border,

Unlike the Israeli freeloaders.

On their side of the border.

Right.... Um... that's Israel's land. There is no other country there. All of it belongs to Israel. All of it.

 

[Andylusion]

Your post amounts to:

Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.

Principle #2 -- Only direct threats to your life permit lethal force.

Principle #3 -- Israel has a policy of shooting all Palestinians based solely on their "Palestinianness".


I agree with your Principle #1. It is the foundation of the moral and legal idea of self-defense. If someone attacks you, you are an idiot not to shoot back. So the dispute we would have is whether or not Israel is "really" being attacked.

You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed. You are not being attacked if your border fence is on someone else's property. You are not being attacked, if you have a buffer zone that is on someone else's property. Burning a tire, is not an attack. A peaceful protest, is not an attack. Throwing a rock, is not a threat to your life, or your fence.

Snipers shooting people in cold blood, is an attack. Drones dropping fire bombs on tents, is an attack. Shooting tear gas at babies, is an attack. Shooting people fishing and farming, is an attack. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people, is an attack.

I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2. I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives. So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.

Wrong! It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible. Making up bullshit reasons to kill people, is just pure evil. You make such a fine German.

There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader. You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier"). Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves. Which is bullshit.

You are not defending yourself when you occupy someone else's property. You are initiating the violence.

Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel. And a blatant rejection of reality. Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.

Is a guy in a wheel chair a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is an 8 month old baby, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is someone fishing or farming, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?

Just shut up. You are so full of crap. We've pointed out a dozen times, if you are stupid enough to bring a child into a military area, where people are throwing pipe bombs, then it's you. No excuses. Sorry, keep talking and keep being wrong.

Even rodents take their young away from danger, not towards it. If you have less morals than a rodent, then you deserve to die.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.

Egypt put its buffer on its own side of the border,

Unlike the Israeli freeloaders.

Egypt is not attacked the way Israel. And Gaza knows that Egypt will not think twice about putting an end to Hamas and what is going on in Gaza.

Egypt did put an end to all the tunnels going into Gaza, and would not hesitate to shoot to kill anyone from Gaza with explosives, molotov, even rocks being hurled at their soldiers.
Their orders would be to shoot and kill each and everyone, unlike what Israel has been doing.

Keep crying about the "buffer zone" and not Hamas which keep them starving and wanting to leave.

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh, be clear, I'm not suggesting the Green Line has any current validity. I'm just pointing out Billo_Really's inconsistent argument where he claims only Israeli "occupation" over the Green Line, but makes constant arguments to a 1948 "occupation".

When you lie about what others say, you don't really have an argument to speak of.

 

[Billo_Really]

You have the right to be wrong, Trash boy.

I thought I was Trash boy? ****, man!

 

[Hollie]

Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.

A line of goons with guns does not make a border.

Regarding the Gaza mini-caliphate, I would agree. That terrorist mob was little more than a..... you know...... Islamic terrorist mob which did more damage to Gaza infrastructure, and to themselves, than to Israel.

In Gaza, setting fire to their own gas lines to fuel the flames of protest

How cute that you flail your Pom Poms in celebration of abject incompetence and stupidity.

However, we need to remember that the professional military defending the Israeli border selectively culled Hamas terrorists (your Islamic terrorist heroes), from large crowds of Islamic terrorist yutes.

We cull bad bulls from the herd. Why should islamic terrorists be treated differently?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Your post amounts to:

Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.

Principle #2 -- Only direct threats to your life permit lethal force.

Principle #3 -- Israel has a policy of shooting all Palestinians based solely on their "Palestinianness".


I agree with your Principle #1. It is the foundation of the moral and legal idea of self-defense. If someone attacks you, you are an idiot not to shoot back. So the dispute we would have is whether or not Israel is "really" being attacked.

You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed. You are not being attacked if your border fence is on someone else's property. You are not being attacked, if you have a buffer zone that is on someone else's property. Burning a tire, is not an attack. A peaceful protest, is not an attack. Throwing a rock, is not a threat to your life, or your fence.

Snipers shooting people in cold blood, is an attack. Drones dropping fire bombs on tents, is an attack. Shooting tear gas at babies, is an attack. Shooting people fishing and farming, is an attack. Collectively punishing 1.5 million people, is an attack.

I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2. I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives. So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.

Wrong! It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible. Making up bullshit reasons to kill people, is just pure evil. You make such a fine German.

There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader. You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier"). Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves. Which is bullshit.

You are not defending yourself when you occupy someone else's property. You are initiating the violence.

Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel. And a blatant rejection of reality. Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.

Is a guy in a wheel chair a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is an 8 month old baby, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty? Is someone fishing or farming, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?

You are a nutcase who only repeats the Hamas side of it.

You have proven that you do not care who these people are, why they went to the protest, how they came to die, etc.

You can bring up the wheelchair bound man who wanted to die for martyrdom (Islam is all about keeping land or becoming a Martyr, at least the Palestinians have been since the Jews recreated their ancient homeland Nation. Never did it against the Ottoman Turkish Muslims. One wonders why ),
or the 8 month old, who should not have been brought to the protest and Gaza doctors themselves say they do not know what it died of, as it had a health issue to begin with......ALL you want.

You are totally against any Israel defense against anyone attacking its sovereignty, so you latch on to all of these excuses of people who are not doing what they have been doing as first announced. Protest peacefully.


Peaceful protest do not require the police or army to do anything, because the people are just marching, singing, dancing, holding signs, etc.


Violent protests (which is what Hamas planned as they took over the March) is hurling rocks, molotov cocktails, plant explosives, breach the fence and enter a country's sovereign territory carrying machetes and other weapons.

Play all of the cards you like.

Israel will continue to protect its borders the best way it knows how. And all the decent people in the world know that Israeli soldiers to not shoot at will.