Debate Now Is Israel our ally or not?

TemplarKormac

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Well, where to begin...

You can hear the echoes of a blunt object hitting hitting a dead horse somewhere, no doubt, but given how much Israel is in the news lately I hit upon a few observations:

1) The Obama Administration is solely responsible for souring relations between our two countries, specifically by the way they have treated Benjamin Netanyahu. Reference his visit to Congress in a couple of days as an example, and past comments to French President Nicholas Sarkozy.

2) As a result of such treatment, some misconstrue this as souring relations between American and Israeli peoples as a whole. That is not correct.

3) Even as John Kerry says Israel has been safer than it's ever been, Israel sits staring down the barrel of gun being loaded to bear in an already nuclear capable Iran, threats from Palestinian jihadists and ISIS.

4) Even as Israel pleads with the US not to engage in talks with Iran, they are being flatly ignored. It is my belief that if a deal is ever completed, Israel will have no choice but to act on their own by launching preemptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

5) The biggest danger to Israel I see now is not from terrorists or a budding nuclear power, but from our own government.

The main question here is:

Is Israel our ally or not?

The rules are as follows:

  1. No anti-Semitic remarks.
  2. No anti-Palestinian remarks.
  3. No mention of specific parties (Republicans, Democrats).
  4. No ad hominem (insulting the person instead of their position)
  5. The political philosophies of the five people named in this thread (as they relate to Israel only) are open for discussion.
  6. The issue is specifically our relationship with Israel currently, or whether they are our ally or not.
  7. Arguments should be structured in a way as to agree or disagree, with an explanation as to why.
  8. Attempts to derail the thread topic will be actively reported to forum staff.
 
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theDoctorisIn

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Bibi is not Israel.

Iran is not the threat to Israel that you think it is.

Israel is our ally, but so is Saudi Arabia. "Allies" does not mean that we put their desires over our own.
 
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TemplarKormac

TemplarKormac

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Bibi is not Israel.

Iran is not the threat to Israel that you think it is.

Israel is our ally, but so is Saudi Arabia. "Allies" does not mean that we put their desires over our own.
1) No, he is not, but he is the man who speaks for them. The way he is treated by our government reflects its views and opinions of him. He took an oath to do whatever it takes to protect Israel.

2) Why not? Iran already sponsors terrorism, shouldn't that represent a threat in an of itself? Also, Iran still hasn't gone back on its desire to destroy Israel

3) That is nothing but an attempt at equivalency. "Allies" means doing more than paying them lip service. I said nothing of putting their desires over our own.
 

sealybobo

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Well, where to begin...

You can hear the echoes of a blunt object hitting hitting a dead horse somewhere, no doubt, but given how much Israel is in the news lately I hit upon a few observations:

1) The Obama Administration is solely responsible for souring relations between our two countries, specifically by the way they have treated Benjamin Netanyahu. Reference his visit to Congress in a couple of days as an example, and past comments to French President Nicholas Sarkozy.

2) As a result of such treatment, some misconstrue this as souring relations between American and Israeli peoples as a whole. That is not correct.

3) Even as John Kerry says Israel has been safer than it's ever been, Israel sits staring down the barrel of gun being loaded to bear in an already nuclear capable Iran, threats from Palestinian jihadists and ISIS.

4) Even as Israel pleads with the US not to engage in talks with Iran, they are being flatly ignored. It is my belief that if a deal is ever completed, Israel will have no choice but to act on their own by launching preemptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

5) The biggest danger to Israel I see now is not from terrorists or a budding nuclear power, but from our own government.

The main question here is:

Is Israel our ally or not?

The rules are as follows:

  1. No anti-Semitic remarks.
  2. No anti-Palestinian remarks.
  3. No mention of specific parties (Republicans, Democrats).
  4. No ad hominem (insulting the person instead of their position)
  5. The political philosophies of the five people named in this thread (as they relate to Israel only) are open for discussion.
  6. The issue is specifically our relationship with Israel currently, or whether they are our ally or not.
  7. Arguments should be structured in a way as to agree or disagree, with an explanation as to why.
  8. Attempts to derail the thread topic will be actively reported to forum staff.
Israel is a pain in our ass and a thorn in our side. I wish Israel was somewhere like Hawaii. No neighbors.
 
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TemplarKormac

TemplarKormac

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Well, where to begin...

You can hear the echoes of a blunt object hitting hitting a dead horse somewhere, no doubt, but given how much Israel is in the news lately I hit upon a few observations:

1) The Obama Administration is solely responsible for souring relations between our two countries, specifically by the way they have treated Benjamin Netanyahu. Reference his visit to Congress in a couple of days as an example, and past comments to French President Nicholas Sarkozy.

2) As a result of such treatment, some misconstrue this as souring relations between American and Israeli peoples as a whole. That is not correct.

3) Even as John Kerry says Israel has been safer than it's ever been, Israel sits staring down the barrel of gun being loaded to bear in an already nuclear capable Iran, threats from Palestinian jihadists and ISIS.

4) Even as Israel pleads with the US not to engage in talks with Iran, they are being flatly ignored. It is my belief that if a deal is ever completed, Israel will have no choice but to act on their own by launching preemptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

5) The biggest danger to Israel I see now is not from terrorists or a budding nuclear power, but from our own government.

The main question here is:

Is Israel our ally or not?

The rules are as follows:

  1. No anti-Semitic remarks.
  2. No anti-Palestinian remarks.
  3. No mention of specific parties (Republicans, Democrats).
  4. No ad hominem (insulting the person instead of their position)
  5. The political philosophies of the five people named in this thread (as they relate to Israel only) are open for discussion.
  6. The issue is specifically our relationship with Israel currently, or whether they are our ally or not.
  7. Arguments should be structured in a way as to agree or disagree, with an explanation as to why.
  8. Attempts to derail the thread topic will be actively reported to forum staff.
Israel is a pain in our ass and a thorn in our side. I wish Israel was somewhere like Hawaii. No neighbors.
Care to expound?
 
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TemplarKormac

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When you make a commitment to support an ally, it stands to reason that you don't negotiate treaties with their enemies, correct?
 

Hossfly

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Israel is the most trusted and reliable ally we have. We'll see what the climate is like after Netanyahu's speech to Congress. I am confidant about the outcome. Obama is the instigator of any friction between him and Netanyahu. Purely despicable and uncalled for. The two should have had a conference instead of this juvenile pouting by the annointed one.
 

C_Clayton_Jones

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It's an 'ally' that doesn't act like one.

It's an 'alliance' from which we get very little benefit.

And it's a classic example of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog.
 

MisterBeale

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See, you have it all mixed up. It's either you not following the foreign affairs closely enough, or you are reading propaganda.

The government of the US has TRIED to work in a way that involved the interests of all parties. The problem is, the administration of Israel has been reticent, it lies, and it is self serving. It does not desire peace, and it has an agenda which is called, "Zionism." If you don't know what that means, LOOK IT UP. It isn't a very friendly or inclusive ideology for peoples families that have been living in the region for generations.

Your first point is that this friction is the cause of American Administrations. I really don't know where you have gotten such a misguided notion. If the administration of the present government of Israel hadn't been so intransigent and deceptive, we may not have found ourselves in the position we are in now.

I read that opinion peace by the well known corporate and media elite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Zuckerman.
Try to seek out sources that use facts, not opinions.

Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years
It's a record that members of Congress should ponder on before they leap to applaud for his upcoming address.
Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years Alternet

"But things appear to have changed as he may have finally overplayed his hand. His upcoming address to Congress is being boycotted by nearly 30 Members of Congress; the White House won't be meeting with him, and neither will Secretary of State John Kerry. Additional sanctions on Iran, more or less designed to kill talks with that country, appear to be stalled, and a historic Iran deal appears imminent.

After 20 years of telling tall tales about Iran, Iraq, and the Palestinians, Netanyahu may finally be learning that you can't bluff forever. Eventually, people wise up to the act."

Netanyahu In 2001: 'America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily'
Netanyahu In 2001 America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily
"He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post points out:

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."


Sarkozy, Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic
Sarkozy Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic - CNN.com

"I can't stand him. He's a liar," Sarkozy said of Netanyahu, according to the website.

Obama replied, "You're tired of him; what about me? I have to deal with him every day," the site reported.



If you want someone to blame for destroying relations between America and Israel, look to Netanyahu. Sarkozy is a conservative, like Netanyahu, and HE agrees with Obama. I am sure that Sarkozy has no love for the Palestinians or Iran for that matter. But the actors on the international stage need to deal openly and honestly with each other.
 

Hossfly

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See, you have it all mixed up. It's either you not following the foreign affairs closely enough, or you are reading propaganda.

The government of the US has TRIED to work in a way that involved the interests of all parties. The problem is, the administration of Israel has been reticent, it lies, and it is self serving. It does not desire peace, and it has an agenda which is called, "Zionism." If you don't know what that means, LOOK IT UP. It isn't a very friendly or inclusive ideology for peoples families that have been living in the region for generations.

Your first point is that this friction is the cause of American Administrations. I really don't know where you have gotten such a misguided notion. If the administration of the present government of Israel hadn't been so intransigent and deceptive, we may not have found ourselves in the position we are in now.

I read that opinion peace by the well known corporate and media elite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Zuckerman.
Try to seek out sources that use facts, not opinions.

Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years
It's a record that members of Congress should ponder on before they leap to applaud for his upcoming address.
Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years Alternet

"But things appear to have changed as he may have finally overplayed his hand. His upcoming address to Congress is being boycotted by nearly 30 Members of Congress; the White House won't be meeting with him, and neither will Secretary of State John Kerry. Additional sanctions on Iran, more or less designed to kill talks with that country, appear to be stalled, and a historic Iran deal appears imminent.

After 20 years of telling tall tales about Iran, Iraq, and the Palestinians, Netanyahu may finally be learning that you can't bluff forever. Eventually, people wise up to the act."

Netanyahu In 2001: 'America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily'
Netanyahu In 2001 America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily
"He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post points out:

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."


Sarkozy, Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic
Sarkozy Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic - CNN.com

"I can't stand him. He's a liar," Sarkozy said of Netanyahu, according to the website.

Obama replied, "You're tired of him; what about me? I have to deal with him every day," the site reported.

If you want someone to blame for destroying relations between America and Israel, look to Netanyahu. Sarkozy is a conservative, like Netanyahu, and HE agrees with Obama. I am sure that Sarkozy has no love for the Palestinians or Iran for that matter. But the actors on the international stage need to deal openly and honestly with each other.
I'll stick by what I said. I don't trust or have any respect for the French or the Muslim Kenyan.
 

skye

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For the Muslim in the White House

for Hussein ...no...Israel is not an ally

Hussein does not like Israel.... scum that he is
 

1stRambo

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Yo, no benefit from Israel Clayton? Check the coffers of the Democrat Party? Nothing but Jew Money!!!

"GTP"
 
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TemplarKormac

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The government of the US has TRIED to work in a way that involved the interests of all parties. The problem is, the administration of Israel has been reticent, it lies, and it is self serving. It does not desire peace, and it has an agenda which is called, "Zionism." If you don't know what that means, LOOK IT UP. It isn't a very friendly or inclusive ideology for peoples families that have been living in the region for generations.
I see. If Israel didn't want peace it would stand to reason they would have crushed Palestine and been on their merry way...

But then again, when you have an ideology that calls for the genocide of the Jewish ethnoreligon, you most likely don't want peace either.

Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years Alternet
Alternet?

Try to seek out sources that use facts, not opinions.
I will note the irony in that post and move on.
 
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TemplarKormac

TemplarKormac

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Netanyahu In 2001: 'America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily'
Netanyahu In 2001 America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily
"He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post points out:

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."
Well, it is pretty asinine for another sovereign government to request that another revert to indefensible borders. That ends any hope of cooperation.


If you want someone to blame for destroying relations between America and Israel, look to Netanyahu.
I'm sorry, but this is purely conjecture.

But the actors on the international stage need to deal openly and honestly with each other.
Works both ways, does it not?
 
Last edited:

MisterBeale

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See, you have it all mixed up. It's either you not following the foreign affairs closely enough, or you are reading propaganda.
Comments like this are not in the spirit of this thread...

No ad hominem if you don't mind.
Not in the spirit of the thread? You have no intention of having a fair and impartial debate with rules "in spirit" of the thread. You want to restrict only those who disagree with your point of view.

For the Muslim in the White House

for Hussein ...no...Israel is not an ally

Hussein does not like Israel.... scum that he is
Racist, bigoted and inflammatory.

See, you have it all mixed up. It's either you not following the foreign affairs closely enough, or you are reading propaganda.

The government of the US has TRIED to work in a way that involved the interests of all parties. The problem is, the administration of Israel has been reticent, it lies, and it is self serving. It does not desire peace, and it has an agenda which is called, "Zionism." If you don't know what that means, LOOK IT UP. It isn't a very friendly or inclusive ideology for peoples families that have been living in the region for generations.

Your first point is that this friction is the cause of American Administrations. I really don't know where you have gotten such a misguided notion. If the administration of the present government of Israel hadn't been so intransigent and deceptive, we may not have found ourselves in the position we are in now.

I read that opinion peace by the well known corporate and media elite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Zuckerman.
Try to seek out sources that use facts, not opinions.

Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years
It's a record that members of Congress should ponder on before they leap to applaud for his upcoming address.
Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years Alternet

"But things appear to have changed as he may have finally overplayed his hand. His upcoming address to Congress is being boycotted by nearly 30 Members of Congress; the White House won't be meeting with him, and neither will Secretary of State John Kerry. Additional sanctions on Iran, more or less designed to kill talks with that country, appear to be stalled, and a historic Iran deal appears imminent.

After 20 years of telling tall tales about Iran, Iraq, and the Palestinians, Netanyahu may finally be learning that you can't bluff forever. Eventually, people wise up to the act."

Netanyahu In 2001: 'America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily'
Netanyahu In 2001 America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily
"He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post points out:

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."


Sarkozy, Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic
Sarkozy Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic - CNN.com

"I can't stand him. He's a liar," Sarkozy said of Netanyahu, according to the website.

Obama replied, "You're tired of him; what about me? I have to deal with him every day," the site reported.

If you want someone to blame for destroying relations between America and Israel, look to Netanyahu. Sarkozy is a conservative, like Netanyahu, and HE agrees with Obama. I am sure that Sarkozy has no love for the Palestinians or Iran for that matter. But the actors on the international stage need to deal openly and honestly with each other.
I'll stick by what I said. I don't trust or have any respect for the French or the Muslim Kenyan.
Zionist, Supremacist, Bigoted, and inflammatory.

Yo, no benefit from Israel Clayton? Check the coffers of the Democrat Party? Nothing but Jew Money!!!

"GTP"
Anti-Semitic, bigoted, and inflammatory.




Whereas, my post was the TRUTH. You read AN opinion piece. Click your own link. It says opinion right at the top of it! It uses as references ruling class journalism and media estate journalism from the Council on Foreign Affairs, and media from Israel. Hardly sources I'd call unbiased. If you aren't aware of the agenda from these sites, you aren't aware of what propaganda is or the definition of what propaganda is. I was making a factual statement. Free your mind and educate yourself to the facts.


Has Iran Really Pursued Nukes?
Gareth Porter's new book challenges years of the West's claims about Tehran's nuclear program.
Has Iran Really Pursued Nukes The American Conservative
"TAC: Are the laptop documents the ‘smoking gun’ for those claiming Iran is seeking nuclear weapons?


Porter: That was their smoking gun from 2005 roughly to 2011, especially 2008 to 2011, because that is when the IAEA started putting out their reports emphasizing the documents. Then there was a second offensive, which the Israelis mounted, beginning in 2008, and going roughly through 2009. They turned over a whole new tranch of documents and intelligence reports to the IAEA. They did it openly—that was different from the laptop documents the MEK turned over in 2004. This new round of intelligence was that Iran had tested nuclear weapons design in Parchin, in a large steel bomb test chamber, an explosives containment chamber.


First, the Iranians would have never allowed the IAEA to visit and inspect five sites of their own choice in any of the four quadrants in Parchin, as they did, if they had such a chamber there. Any site that the IAEA was interested in [could] have been inspected, and samples taken.


The second point is [that] the IAEA itself acquired a lot of the satellite photos from 2005 to Feb. 2012—a seven year period—of that same locale, that specific site, and upon inspection of those photos they found there was … no activity at that site at any time suggesting Iran had done something to change the site, hide anything that might be done if you were concerned about some future IAEA inspection. That covers the first three months after the IAEA reported the containment bomb facility.


TAC: How complicit is the media in maintaining this false narrative?


Porter: On a scale of one to 10 with 10 being as complicit as Pravda was in the Soviet Union? Nine and a half.


Maybe nine and half doesn’t do them justice—it should be 10. The media has never questioned the false narrative of the Iranian nuclear issue. Indeed there is more than one case where the media has anticipated or gone beyond the official line. I would cite the New York Times coverage on the Iran nuclear issue—David Sanger—who’s hammered away, every chance he’s gotten, at the idea that the NIE in 2007 was wrong to say the Iranians were not working on developing nuclear weapons. A pattern of coverage that insists that this has to be wrong, that’s what the Israeli government believes. But we know that Israeli Intelligence has, at least in the last few years, agreed with the U.S. intelligence that Iran has not made decision to go for nuclear weapons.


TAC: Is the real narrative that Iran is engaging a “hedging strategy”?


Porter: That goes with the concept of latent deterrence capability, which means that by simply having the capability to enrich uranium, that in itself has a latent deterrent effect, and as I point out in the book, [George W. Bush CIA Director] Michael Hayden had discussed the possible use of force against Iran and decided if we did that it would cause the Iranians to go over the line and build nuclear weapons. That is the latent deterrent effect these countries have in mind, to let it be known they have the capability."


So the end result? Israel lies to manipulate American foreign policy.


In effect, we are done here. You don't want an open honest debate. You want to have the peanut gallery take pot shot and snipes, while your silly little rules are to be enforced unequally because you can't hack it or debate on equal terms. I don't even want to start schooling you on all the fallacies you have already committed because you haven't had anything beyond a high school or community college education and haven't a clue about how to think logically with out using rhetoric. I can't blame you though, rhetoric is all you see on TV or hear on the radio.

NOT WORTH MY TIME.
 

Foxfyre

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See, you have it all mixed up. It's either you not following the foreign affairs closely enough, or you are reading propaganda.

The government of the US has TRIED to work in a way that involved the interests of all parties. The problem is, the administration of Israel has been reticent, it lies, and it is self serving. It does not desire peace, and it has an agenda which is called, "Zionism." If you don't know what that means, LOOK IT UP. It isn't a very friendly or inclusive ideology for peoples families that have been living in the region for generations.

Your first point is that this friction is the cause of American Administrations. I really don't know where you have gotten such a misguided notion. If the administration of the present government of Israel hadn't been so intransigent and deceptive, we may not have found ourselves in the position we are in now.

I read that opinion peace by the well known corporate and media elite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Zuckerman.
Try to seek out sources that use facts, not opinions.

Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years
It's a record that members of Congress should ponder on before they leap to applaud for his upcoming address.
Benjamin Netanyahu Has Been Lying to Americans For 20 Years Alternet

"But things appear to have changed as he may have finally overplayed his hand. His upcoming address to Congress is being boycotted by nearly 30 Members of Congress; the White House won't be meeting with him, and neither will Secretary of State John Kerry. Additional sanctions on Iran, more or less designed to kill talks with that country, appear to be stalled, and a historic Iran deal appears imminent.

After 20 years of telling tall tales about Iran, Iraq, and the Palestinians, Netanyahu may finally be learning that you can't bluff forever. Eventually, people wise up to the act."

Netanyahu In 2001: 'America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily'
Netanyahu In 2001 America Is A Thing You Can Move Very Easily
"He also boasts of manipulating the U.S. in the ongoing peace process, as the Washington Post points out:

"They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."


Sarkozy, Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic
Sarkozy Obama bemoan Netanyahu over open mic - CNN.com

"I can't stand him. He's a liar," Sarkozy said of Netanyahu, according to the website.

Obama replied, "You're tired of him; what about me? I have to deal with him every day," the site reported.
If you want someone to blame for destroying relations between America and Israel, look to Netanyahu. Sarkozy is a conservative, like Netanyahu, and HE agrees with Obama. I am sure that Sarkozy has no love for the Palestinians or Iran for that matter. But the actors on the international stage need to deal openly and honestly with each other.
Sarkozy is considered a conservative in France which would be defined 'liberal' in America. But he is extreme in neither ideology having promoted a mixture of both depending on specific issues. But there is no love lost between Sarkozy and Netanyahu as Sarkozy has been squarely in the Palestinian camp and has been in favor of Israel making all the concessions and the Palestinians none.

And yet when you really analyze it, Netanyahu, though definitely not willing to go along to get along on every issue, has been the one willing to compromise. Abbas, leader of the Palestinians, not at all.

I have seen no evidence that Netanyahu is anything but an ally of the USA and the west. I have seen plenty of evidence that gives me the impression that Obama seems to have a deep seated dislike, if not hatred, for Israel and that he definitely sides with the Palestinians in everything.

Why do Sarkozy and Obama hate Netanyahu - PostPartisan - The Washington Post
 
Last edited:

1stRambo

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Yo, go back through the years of Israel Prime Ministers, you will see who gave in and who lied about given in!!!
There was Yasser Arafat, the biggest two-face leader the Palestinians ever had, and did a disservice for the people! Israel gave them everything, and they would turnaround and destroy it, either by not accepting the terms, or start bombing Israel, the truth is something the Haters in this Country can`t take, simple as that!!!

"GTP"
2f3a20c2d46d9f096f0f6a706700d430.jpg
 

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