Debate Now Is Israel our ally or not?

[High_Gravity]

Well, where to begin...

You can hear the echoes of a blunt object hitting hitting a dead horse somewhere, no doubt, but given how much Israel is in the news lately I hit upon a few observations:

1) The Obama Administration is solely responsible for souring relations between our two countries, specifically by the way they have treated Benjamin Netanyahu. Reference his visit to Congress in a couple of days as an example, and past comments to French President Nicholas Sarkozy.

2) As a result of such treatment, some misconstrue this as souring relations between American and Israeli peoples as a whole. That is not correct.

3) Even as John Kerry says Israel has been safer than it's ever been, Israel sits staring down the barrel of gun being loaded to bear in an already nuclear capable Iran, threats from Palestinian jihadists and ISIS.

4) Even as Israel pleads with the US not to engage in talks with Iran, they are being flatly ignored. It is my belief that if a deal is ever completed, Israel will have no choice but to act on their own by launching preemptive strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

5) The biggest danger to Israel I see now is not from terrorists or a budding nuclear power, but from our own government.

The main question here is:

Is Israel our ally or not?

The rules are as follows:

1. No anti-Semitic remarks.
2. No anti-Palestinian remarks.
3. No mention of specific parties (Republicans, Democrats).
4. No ad hominem (insulting the person instead of their position)
5. The political philosophies of the five people named in this thread (as they relate to Israel only) are open for discussion.
6. The issue is specifically our relationship with Israel currently, or whether they are our ally or not.
7. Arguments should be structured in a way as to agree or disagree, with an explanation as to why.
8. Attempts to derail the thread topic will be actively reported to forum staff.

Yes they are.

 

[dilloduck]

Israel knew what it was getting into when they declared a so called "independent state " in the middle of the Islamic world. It is their destiny. While Israel is wringing it's hands about what it's neighbors might do other countries around the world are dealing with invasions and civil wars. What kind of special treatment do they want ? Some kind of promise that America will protect them from the bogeyman ? There is NO security in the world. It is an illusion.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Israel knew what it was getting into when they declared a so called "independent state " in the middle of the Islamic world. It is their destiny. While Israel is wringing it's hands about what it's neighbors might do other countries around the world are dealing with invasions and civil wars. What kind of special treatment do they want ? Some kind of promise that America will protect them from the bogeyman ? There is NO security in the world. It is an illusion.

Much like Blacks know what they are getting in to when they live in areas filled with Klan.

Of course, people who are intelligent, liberal and compassionate do not indulge in rhetoric that acts to blame the targets of the Klan for the fact the Klan is what it is.

 

[dilloduck]

Worst analogy evah.

 

[Disir]

Israel is not an ally. It is a client state exactly like South Korea is a client state or a buffer state. This is an empire. Israel does not tell the US what to do. The US tells Israel how to proceed. When the scud missiles hit Tel Aviv- Bush told Israel not to retaliate. The release of terrorists from Israel prisons came from Kerry.

If you think that Israel is the only reason that we are in the Middle East then you are sadly mistaken. You don't have to agree with it and you don't have to like it (I don't) but yet it exists. We store munitions there. Watch Israel make their own call and then the reaction from the US.

Bibis come and go exactly like presidents come and go. Pretending that the US relations have soured for the first time ever under Obama is also a mistake.

 

[Coyote]

That makes no sense. We have many allies whom we support. Some of them hate each other. One example - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Treaties are negotiated in our best interest first and formost. Any country is that way. Including Israel.

Then it is useless to call any ally an ally if we support one ally and their enemies, and the other ally and their enemies. Basically we are playing sovereign nations against one another. Tell me how we can call ourselves an ally to them, or them ours.

Yet we do, all the time. It's not a childrens game of "your my friend therefore, you must hate all my enemies". Alliances are crafted over many things - shared economic interests, shared regional interests, mutual defense interests. What I don't like is another nation dictating to us who we can and can not have relationships with.

It is in our self interest to have some sort of relationship with Iran so we have some knowledge of what they are up to, and some sort of working "alliance" to deal with ISIS which imo represents a greater threat to ME stability and to Israel than Iran. Whether you like it or not - with Iraq gone, Iran is now a major regional player and we can't afford to avoid dealing with them if we want to have any sort of influence in the ME.

That doesn't mean we sit back if Iran aggesses on Israel, but frankly - Israel has no right to dictate either our foreign policy or alliances any more than any other country.

The whole point of an alliance in my opinion is that you have multiple allies allied against one common enemy, without in turn engaging in relations with enemies who are in conflict with members in the alliance. That's the whole idea of being in an alliance right? IF the threat is big enough, you'll see current enemies becoming allies, but such alliances are temporary.

I think that's a rather simplistic view. Alliances are much more complicated than that. In the ME, we have Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan as allies. Not much further away Pakistan and India. There are many conflicts amongst them but they are still our allies.

Iran is like NK in many respects. We can't afford to let them aquire a nuclear bomb but neither can we afford a military conflict. So we are left with a set of bad choices and the question of which is the least bad?

I support negotiations until they have proven to fail. I do not support an ally of ours trying to force a military confrontation in which we will have no choice but to become involved. Is that truly and ally?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I think that's a rather simplistic view.

Because in a ball game, you don't see one team allying with another in the same game. There has to be a winner and a loser. Simply put, I think that's how it should be in war and military affairs.

Israel is the only country in the ME who faces a risk of annihilation, none of the others do.

That doesn't mean we sit back if Iran aggresses on Israel, but frankly - Israel has no right to dictate either our foreign policy or alliances any more than any other country.

That's the thing, we chose to divest ourselves into the affairs of the Israelis. Our fates are linked now.

It's not a childrens game of "your my friend therefore, you must hate all my enemies".

The whole idea of an alliance is a uniting against a common enemy, or at least so I thought. Not uniting with the enemies of your allies. Pretty much defeats the entire purpose.

It is in our self interest to have some sort of relationship with Iran so we have some knowledge of what they are up to, and some sort of working "alliance" to deal with ISIS which imo represents a greater threat to ME stability and to Israel than Iran.

The fact that Iran has allied with Iraq against ISIS should scare people. Yeah, ISIS must be destroyed, but an enemy of ours becoming an ally of our ally? That line of thought becomes quite arduous after a period of time.

Iran is now a major regional player and we can't afford to avoid dealing with them if we want to have any sort of influence in the ME.

Precisely my point. The sudden appearance of Iran in this conflict doesn't sit well. There must be an ulterior motive, such as Iran trying to expand its influence in the Middle East. Something tells me they are doing so to get closer to Israel and facilitate its destruction. Iran isn't to be trifled with.

 

[Coyote]

I think that's a rather simplistic view.

Because in a ball game, you don't see one team allying with another in the same game. There has to be a winner and a loser. Simply put, I think that's how it should be in war and military affairs.

Israel is the only country in the ME who faces a risk of annihilation, none of the others do.

Global politics is not a ball game - that is where it is simpistic. It's not a one OR the other (all or nothing) dynamic.

And no - there doesn't have to be a "winner" or a "loser". It's not a game and not every confrontation or difference of opinion equals war. The most common outcomes are a win-win situation where everyone comes out with feeling that while they may have not gotten everything they wanted, they at least got something. Often, what ends up is the best of a set of bad choices - the one that gives us the most transparency, oversight and openness for example but may not totally irradicate the problem. Iran for example. We may not be able to put a total halt on their nuclear ambitions but this is the next best thing and it's a heck of a lot better than an outright military conflict and it's also better than shutting down talks and adding more sanctions which would force Iran into a position where it would very likely try to make a bomb, in total secret. That is why I say these things are sometimes choosing the least bad options.

That doesn't mean we sit back if Iran aggresses on Israel, but frankly - Israel has no right to dictate either our foreign policy or alliances any more than any other country.

That's the thing, we chose to divest ourselves into the affairs of the Israelis. Our fates are linked now.

No they aren't - no more than any other ally.

It's not a childrens game of "your my friend therefore, you must hate all my enemies".

The whole idea of an alliance is a uniting against a common enemy, or at least so I thought. Not uniting with the enemies of your allies. Pretty much defeats the entire purpose.

Alliance:

• a union or association formed for mutual benefit, especially between countries or organizations.
• a relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities.

An alliance isn't necessarily military, and it doesn't necessarily mean we attack every enemy of our ally or that we can negotiate with so called "enemies" for peace. Israel wants us to act in a way that is not in our best interest and our best interest comes first. Negotiating for peaceful resolutions to a conflict does not mean we are forsaking an ally.

It is in our self interest to have some sort of relationship with Iran so we have some knowledge of what they are up to, and some sort of working "alliance" to deal with ISIS which imo represents a greater threat to ME stability and to Israel than Iran.

The fact that Iran has allied with Iraq against ISIS should scare people. Yeah, ISIS must be destroyed, but an enemy of ours becoming an ally of our ally? That line of thought becomes quite arduous after a period of time.

Again - this is where things are not so simple. Exactly how would you handle ISIS? We allied with the Soviets in WW2 and without the Soviets, who suffered horrific losses, we might not have won.

Iran is now a major regional player and we can't afford to avoid dealing with them if we want to have any sort of influence in the ME.

Precisely my point. The sudden appearance of Iran in this conflict doesn't sit well. There must be an ulterior motive, such as Iran trying to expand its influence in the Middle East. Something tells me they are doing so to get closer to Israel and facilitate its destruction. Iran isn't to be trifled with.

This isn't a "sudden appearance". Iran has been angling to be a major player in the region for a long time and whether we like it or not, they will be. Israel has been doing it's chicken little thing for a long time now about Iran and nothing has happened beyond a lot of rhetoric. Iran isn't crazy, just like China isn't crazy. North Korea, on the other hand....