Is Green Industry Collapsing?

[westwall]

Actually, Spain is quite unique. It decided to go hell for leather into the green economy... and destroyed its economy instead. Every 'green job' cost two traditional jobs. Back in Sept 09, the Washington Post was holding Spain up as a shining example of how the green economy could save the planet and the US economy. Fortunately, for Americans, no one listened.

German Environment Ministry has published study
http://www.bmu.de/files/pdfs/allgemein/application/pdf/broschuere_erneuerbar_beschaeftigt_bf.pdf

Jobs in renewable energy
2004 ---- 160.000
2009 ---- 340.000

Sucks to pick countries, which witness financial-economic crisis like Spain and hold renewable-energy subject responsible for economic crisis.
Why don`t you pick Germany, which invests a lot more then Spain into renewable-energy and is still witnessing economic growth and decreasing unemployment rates?

Hmmmm, maybe you should talk to some Germans about how things are going.

BMWi - Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology - Press Releases - The Economic Situation in the Federal Republic of Germany in February 2009 [1]

German unemployment falls for sixth straight month Economic Report - MarketWatch

Industry is down 20% and the only reason why more people aren't out of work is because of government subsidies which allow workers to get 80% of their salaries while only working part time.

 

[westwall]

Is the Green Industry Collapsing the Free Markets around the World???

No, it's not. However, due to fanciful claims, and the lack of good research, an industry that really could have been beneficial will instead be relegated to the back of the bus as far as investment capital is concerned.

If the proponents had just told the truth the people would have put up with a lot more. But, the people don't like being lied to so when the truth got out they were pissed and green industry has been set back at least a decade, if not more, because they just couldn't be bothered to tell the truth.

 

[ekrem]

Spain and jobs in Construction Industry

2005 --- 100 base-points
2007 --- 115
2009 --- 80

The pain in Spain …
… isn’t hard to explain. Spain was basically Florida, with a housing bubble inflated by both resident and holiday purchases, and now the bubble has burst.
The pain in Spain ... - NYTimes.com

Plus, normal industry stagnates in productitivity growth.

 

[ekrem]

Hmmmm, maybe you should talk to some Germans about how things are going.

BMWi - Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology - Press Releases - The Economic Situation in the Federal Republic of Germany in February 2009 [1]

German unemployment falls for sixth straight month Economic Report - MarketWatch

Industry is down 20% and the only reason why more people aren't out of work is because of government subsidies which allow workers to get 80% of their salaries while only working part time.

usmb.com thread about German economy.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/europe/139176-germanys-economy-it-still-goes-upward.html

For first time since re-unification with Eastern-Germany, Germany now has less then 3 Million unemployed. Equals 7 per-cent of workforce.
Exports will grow by 16% in 2010.
Exports in 2011 will breach 1 Trillion Euro barrier.

 

[westwall]

Hmmmm, maybe you should talk to some Germans about how things are going.

BMWi - Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology - Press Releases - The Economic Situation in the Federal Republic of Germany in February 2009 [1]

German unemployment falls for sixth straight month Economic Report - MarketWatch

Industry is down 20% and the only reason why more people aren't out of work is because of government subsidies which allow workers to get 80% of their salaries while only working part time.

usmb.com thread about German economy.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/europe/139176-germanys-economy-it-still-goes-upward.html

For first time since re-unification with Eastern-Germany, Germany now has less then 3 Million unemployed. Equals 7 per-cent of workforce.
Exports will grow by 16% in 2010.
Exports in 2011 will breach 1 Trillion Euro barrier.

And for those of us who can read German is the very pertinent fact..."what is keeping the whole mess afloat is the "short-time" work program that encourages firms to keep workers even if they have to cut back hours. The government subsidizes up to two-thirds of a worker's regular salary, as well as monthly pension and health-care payments. Training for new jobs has also been subsidized and the program has proven more "flexible" (gee I wonder what that means!) than traditional welfare programs." I paraphrased for speed and ease.

So please tell us how wonderful that German economy is again. If the government has to support it it isn't real. It is fiction. The US economy is in the same boat. Eventually Peter will decide he's tired of being robbed to pay Paul and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

 

[uscitizen]

Actually, Spain is quite unique. It decided to go hell for leather into the green economy... and destroyed its economy instead. Every 'green job' cost two traditional jobs. Back in Sept 09, the Washington Post was holding Spain up as a shining example of how the green economy could save the planet and the US economy. Fortunately, for Americans, no one listened.

German Environment Ministry has published study
http://www.bmu.de/files/pdfs/allgemein/application/pdf/broschuere_erneuerbar_beschaeftigt_bf.pdf

Jobs in renewable energy
2004 ---- 160.000
2009 ---- 340.000

Sucks to pick countries, which witness financial-economic crisis like Spain and hold renewable-energy subject responsible for economic crisis.
Why don`t you pick Germany, which invests a lot more then Spain into renewable-energy and is still witnessing economic growth and decreasing unemployment rates?

I am suprised they did not pick Iraq.

 

[ekrem]

And for those of us who can read German is the very pertinent fact...what is keeping the whole mess afloat is the "short-time" work program that encourages firms to keep workers even if they have to cut back hours. The government subsidizes up to two-thirds of a worker's regular salary, as well as monthly pension and health-care payments. Training for new jobs has also been subsidized and the program has proven more "flexible" (gee I wonder what that means!) than traditional welfare programs.

So please tell us how wonderful that German economy is again. If the government has to support it it isn't real. It is fiction. The US economy is in the same boat. Eventually Peter will decide he's tired of being robbed to pay Paul and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

Not again you...

191.000 jobs are reduced-time jobs.
That means, that the German Government equals the wage for those 191.000 workers to pre-crisis levels, where they worked full-time.
Konjunktur: Arbeitslosenzahl sinkt auf 2,93 Millionen | Wirtschaft | ZEIT ONLINE


Germany has about 40 million active jobs and 43 million people who can work.
The short-work program to the benefit of workers is a very small program, 191.000 persons mainly low-wage jobs.

You are implying, that Germany would subsidy jobs significantly in quantity, which is not the case. If it were, Germany would be bankrupt.

 

[HUGGY]

Westwall you either stupid or a liar..or..you don't do your homework ...I find that odd in a pilot..If you really are a pilot.

Spain was the hardest hit of all the European countries in the collapse we started. Harder than both Greece and Ireland.

They are cutting back on EVERYTHING! What REALLY did not perform for them or any one else were our fraudulently rated bonds.

Huggy,

Spain has had a very bad experience with green business.

Feeling the pain in Spain | jobs, green, state - Opinion - The Orange County Register

Is just one example of what occured. 2.2 jobs lost for every one claimed to have been generated is math that doesn't compute no matter how you try and twist it. Yes I am a pilot (private not commercial) and attention to detail is what keeps me alive. I have amassed a goodly number of hours based on teh old pilots addage that there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots (with one exception being Bob Hoover) and I use that maxim in pretty much everything I do.

Whenever a business requires massive subsidy to exhist (whether it is an oil company or a car maker) it is dead...it just doesn't know it yet.

I am a pilot as well and beat the odds and the wise addage as I did most of my flying in the first 5 years moving pot out of Colombia and the Carribean. I should be dead several times over. But enough about me.

I have also started several businesses and what you said about "subsidies" does not hold true. Almost every successful business losses money for the first few years. Starting from scratch and clawing your way just is not possible any more. It takes massive investment to prototype, tool up for manufacturing and penetrate markets just in invention to manufacturing which is my nitch. The same business model is absolutely needed in most start ups these days. Take Fox for instance. Murdoch invested many millions over the first ten years before he saw a dime of profit. There is no gaurantee an idea or business model will make it no matter what it is. Two thirds fail for a wide variety of reasons. When It comes to green ..there is no choice...within 40 years it must be viable or we are all fucked. If I had several million extra dollars I would put it in green technology. That is the sector that WILL succeed because there is no alternative..

 

[ekrem]

Germany has about 40 million active jobs and 43 million people who can work.
The short-work program to the benefit of workers is a very small program, 191.000 persons mainly low-wage jobs.

That means, that roughly 0.47 per-cent of German jobs currently receive subsidy from German State.
Companies coping with the crisis, reduced jobs to short-work.

So Government pays them the rest, so they can live as in pre-crisis.
Social responsibility, as those workers have to feed families and have to pay bills.

 

[bag]

It appears to be so. Spain has recently scaled back its subsidy programs for wind and solar (because they weren't performing as advertised) and France and Germany are following suit. Ontario Canada may be next in line as the renewable energy industry continues to fail to meet expectations.

Lawrence Solomon: Green collapse | FP Comment | Financial Post

ENDS Europe | France to halt subsidies for new solar projects

PV developers head for exits after new French moratorium - Politics - Renewable energy news - Recharge - wind, solar, biomass, wave/tidal/hydro and geothermal

west,

you don't need to post green links, recommendations, and solutions.

a plethora of *&^^%$^^( will obviously post the opposite side, and quote many a""holes whom know absotutely nothing about the subject. "boing"

 

[westwall]

Westwall you either stupid or a liar..or..you don't do your homework ...I find that odd in a pilot..If you really are a pilot.

Spain was the hardest hit of all the European countries in the collapse we started. Harder than both Greece and Ireland.

They are cutting back on EVERYTHING! What REALLY did not perform for them or any one else were our fraudulently rated bonds.

Huggy,

Spain has had a very bad experience with green business.

Feeling the pain in Spain | jobs, green, state - Opinion - The Orange County Register

Is just one example of what occured. 2.2 jobs lost for every one claimed to have been generated is math that doesn't compute no matter how you try and twist it. Yes I am a pilot (private not commercial) and attention to detail is what keeps me alive. I have amassed a goodly number of hours based on teh old pilots addage that there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots (with one exception being Bob Hoover) and I use that maxim in pretty much everything I do.

Whenever a business requires massive subsidy to exhist (whether it is an oil company or a car maker) it is dead...it just doesn't know it yet.

I am a pilot as well and beat the odds and the wise addage as I did most of my flying in the first 5 years moving pot out of Colombia and the Carribean. I should be dead several times over. But enough about me.

I have also started several businesses and what you said about "subsidies" does not hold true. Almost every successful business losses money for the first few years. Starting from scratch and clawing your way just is not possible any more. It takes massive investment to prototype, tool up for manufacturing and penetrate markets just in invention to manufacturing which is my nitch. The same business model is absolutely needed in most start ups these days. Take Fox for instance. Murdoch invested many millions over the first ten years before he saw a dime of profit. There is no gaurantee an idea or business model will make it no matter what it is. Two thirds fail for a wide variety of reasons. When It comes to green ..there is no choice...within 40 years it must be viable or we are all fucked. If I had several million extra dollars I would put it in green technology. That is the sector that WILL succeed because there is no alternative..

I can agree with you to a point Huggy, but I just can't follow you all the way down the hill.
It is true that most business's don't survive 5 years. That is a simple fact. A good friend of mine is an IB and he spends roughly 60 million a year on businesses he thinks will be a go. I was an angel investor in a couple of businesses he said might have a chance, both went bust sadly but that's life.

However, instead of making things worse by pouring good money after bad, he and I pulled out when it became obvious that the businesses were not going to make it. Germany on the other hand is pouring money down a very deep hole that someone is going to have to pay for at some point in the future. I really suggest you read the Spiegel
report in its entirety as they call into question the practice of maintaining the program. They point out that the politicians love it because it makes them look good but what happens when the end comes?

So on another note what's the coolest A/C you've piloted? Mine is a turbo Porter.

 

[westwall]

And for those of us who can read German is the very pertinent fact...what is keeping the whole mess afloat is the "short-time" work program that encourages firms to keep workers even if they have to cut back hours. The government subsidizes up to two-thirds of a worker's regular salary, as well as monthly pension and health-care payments. Training for new jobs has also been subsidized and the program has proven more "flexible" (gee I wonder what that means!) than traditional welfare programs.

So please tell us how wonderful that German economy is again. If the government has to support it it isn't real. It is fiction. The US economy is in the same boat. Eventually Peter will decide he's tired of being robbed to pay Paul and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

Not again you...

191.000 jobs are reduced-time jobs.
That means, that the German Government equals the wage for those 191.000 workers to pre-crisis levels, where they worked full-time.
Konjunktur: Arbeitslosenzahl sinkt auf 2,93 Millionen | Wirtschaft | ZEIT ONLINE


Germany has about 40 million active jobs and 43 million people who can work.
The short-work program to the benefit of workers is a very small program, 191.000 persons mainly low-wage jobs.

You are implying, that Germany would subsidy jobs significantly in quantity, which is not the case. If it were, Germany would be bankrupt.

Yes, that is my point. Jobs that are subsidized are not really jobs now are they? If the companies had their druthers they would let the superfluous workers go but the governement says no. The taxpayers are footing the bill. It's kind of like how GM claimed they had paid the loan back early but when you actually looked at where they got the money from to pay it they had gotten it from teh TARP funds, so the funds used to pay back the government...came from the government.....verstehen sie?

 

[HUGGY]

Huggy,

Spain has had a very bad experience with green business.

Feeling the pain in Spain | jobs, green, state - Opinion - The Orange County Register

Is just one example of what occured. 2.2 jobs lost for every one claimed to have been generated is math that doesn't compute no matter how you try and twist it. Yes I am a pilot (private not commercial) and attention to detail is what keeps me alive. I have amassed a goodly number of hours based on teh old pilots addage that there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots (with one exception being Bob Hoover) and I use that maxim in pretty much everything I do.

Whenever a business requires massive subsidy to exhist (whether it is an oil company or a car maker) it is dead...it just doesn't know it yet.

I am a pilot as well and beat the odds and the wise addage as I did most of my flying in the first 5 years moving pot out of Colombia and the Carribean. I should be dead several times over. But enough about me.

I have also started several businesses and what you said about "subsidies" does not hold true. Almost every successful business losses money for the first few years. Starting from scratch and clawing your way just is not possible any more. It takes massive investment to prototype, tool up for manufacturing and penetrate markets just in invention to manufacturing which is my nitch. The same business model is absolutely needed in most start ups these days. Take Fox for instance. Murdoch invested many millions over the first ten years before he saw a dime of profit. There is no gaurantee an idea or business model will make it no matter what it is. Two thirds fail for a wide variety of reasons. When It comes to green ..there is no choice...within 40 years it must be viable or we are all fucked. If I had several million extra dollars I would put it in green technology. That is the sector that WILL succeed because there is no alternative..

I can agree with you to a point Huggy, but I just can't follow you all the way down the hill.
It is true that most business's don't survive 5 years. That is a simple fact. A good friend of mine is an IB and he spends roughly 60 million a year on businesses he thinks will be a go. I was an angel investor in a couple of businesses he said might have a chance, both went bust sadly but that's life.

However, instead of making things worse by pouring good money after bad, he and I pulled out when it became obvious that the businesses were not going to make it. Germany on the other hand is pouring money down a very deep hole that someone is going to have to pay for at some point in the future. I really suggest you read the Spiegel
report in its entirety as they call into question the practice of maintaining the program. They point out that the politicians love it because it makes them look good but what happens when the end comes?

So on another note what's the coolest A/C you've piloted? Mine is a turbo Porter.

File:C402C N247GS SJU 7-14-08.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Revere]

Nobody with several million extra dollars is investing in green energy, unless its viability is completely at the mercy of government subsidies.

No entrepreneurship whatsoever, unlike every mass market innovation that has been accepted by consumers.

 

[HUGGY]

Nobody with several million extra dollars is investing in green energy, unless its viability is completely at the mercy of government subsidies.

No entrepreneurship whatsoever, unlike every mass market innovation that has been accepted by consumers.

There are thousands of ways to make money in green tech. I can think of several right off the cuff. Meters and switches for home use that reverse power back on the grid for one. Green charging systems for your up coming electric cars and trucks. Battery rebuilding and recycling for electric cars and trucks... just a few..

 

[Revere]

Only on the teat of government subsidies.

T. Boone Pickens got out as soon as government did.

 

[HUGGY]

Only on the teat of government subsidies.

T. Boone Pickens got out as soon as government did.

Pickens is a corporate raider. Pickens is in it for Pickens in the short term. Pickens made a play and it didn't pan out. What he does or does not do doesn't interest me. That doesn't change the fact that there will have to be an alternative for much of what petroleum does now.

 

[Revere]

Only if someone can make something and sell something people want, not on the backs of a government handout.

 

[HUGGY]

Only if someone can make something and sell something people want, not on the backs of a government handout.

You are obsessed with "government handouts". The thread is about the Green Industry Collapsing. That is not going to be the outcome. We WILL have to find OTHER ways to do some of the things we take for granted now. Whether the government gets involved or not is of little consequence. There WILL be a need and there WILL be products developed to fill those needs.

 

[Revere]

Green energy is no more viable than any government's busted budget.

That's not entrepreneurship.