Is America the greatest country in the world?

[Foxfyre]

I've never been real big about comparisons to any other country. I do think it's fair to say we ain't as great as we once were, the generation that went through the depression and won WWII and then went on to build the foundations of the greatest economy the world has ever seen, was a hard act to follow. They had their warts though, social injustice was still the name of the game in many places.

Today we've made serious inroads over that social injustice, but the pendulum may have swung too far to the other way in terms of the so-called safety net that is too large. Personal responsibility and the work ethic are not what they once were, and the current generation doesn't seem to care about the problems they are leaving to posterity. Nothing great about that. We are divided in so many ways, unwilling to agree on which way to go or cooperate to find workable solutions and compromises. Our leadership is insufficient, and we don't seem to be paying much attention. More than we were, the Tea Partys are evidence of that. But nowhere near enough.

I agree that it is foolish to compare the USA, unique among all nations on Earth, to any other country except to note that our founding principles have been superior to those of any other country.

The Tea Party and other movements like it were and are our best hope to regain our former greatness though. The Tea Party is doing its damndest to raise conciousness about those values that made America great--personal freedom/liberty, recognition of unalienable rights, a work ethic thati includes earning what you receive from any source, paying for what we get, fiscal responsibility, personal and government moral integrity that is impossible when controlled by political correctness, and a people who govern themselves free of an authoriarian government who assigns them their rights.

And of course those who want that authoritarian government and the nanny state, and who simply shrug off a sixteen trillion dollar debt and increasing corruption among those who dole out government charity and the recipients of that charity are trashing and demonizing and marginalizing the Tea Party as much as possible. They know they have succeeded when people who think like the Tea Partiers disassociate themselves from the Tea Party or similar groups to avoid the derision and contemptuous comments thrown at them.

The pro nanny state people will not even look at our former greatness, but point to the pockets of social injustice as the sum total of what previous generations were all about. And they shrug off any negatives brought about by their own present ideology as inconsequential.

I am deeply afraid time is running out to restore America to its greatness. After this generation, there will be too few left to speak out for it. And the great experiment will have failed.

Foxfyre, I have some concerns with this statement. While I will agree that there are a number of questions that need answers, the Tea Party seems to have an agenda which is not at all consistent with Constitutional rights. In fact, it's more consistent with corporate rights. Having it's roots based in the machinations of a couple of "robber barons" - brothers by the name of Koch - does nothing to instill a great deal of faith in their long term objective. My greatest fear is that instead of returning us to our post-Revolutionary dogma, the Tea Party is inadvertently (or maybe not) opening the door to corporatism and replacing democracy with plutocracy.

One could argue that the current manipulation of our news media is a necessary first step in establishing control over the people of this country. This was the exact tactic the Soviets used to instill Communism. Although we have the freedom of the press, "grass roots" bodies - which according to many of the documentaries I've watched on the subject - are in fact organized by groups like Americans For Progress, a Koch funded organization. They exert a great deal of influence mainly because they ask the questions that are on everyone's minds but fall short in the answers to those questions. Their main tactic has been to attempt to discredit any idea which is anathema to their positions - and constant ridicule in the press rather than objective examination is not an answer. The main theme, however, is consistently "Being rich is good" - any argument to that statement draws calls of "socialism".

To be fair, the business model of the Tea Party press is sound. Conservative viewership sells products - no doubt about that. In response, other media outlets are attempting to cash in and serve a liberal point of view. It still doesn't make it right, and in the end destroys the objectivity we need to solve the problems we're facing.

There are a number of ways in which we could effect a better economic outlook and save the entitlement programs. The fact is though, that if our system worked the way our models show, entitlements would be minimal on their own even with all the so-called give-aways. One could make the argument that the corporate structure and tax law has shifted in a way which precludes those on the low end of the scale from ever being able to rise above their stations, and that current philosophy will do nothing more than INCREASE the number of people in need. This, to me, is the driving principle behind the Tea Party and has nothing to do with the principles this country began with - where we helped our neighbors to establish themselves all the while knowing that the favor would be repaid in the future.

I'm sorry - this country has lost it's way. But the Tea Party shows me the bleakest possible outcome.

I am a dedicated Tea Partier and I can assure you that though there are those in the Tea Party who have personal social agendas, the vast majority of Tea Party groups do not. The single focus of almost all of the Tea Party is:

1. To restore fiscal integrity in government at all levels.
2. To restore individual liberties as intended by the Constitution.
3. To decrease the size, power, scope, and expense of the Federal government.

That's it. And in my opinion, if the Tea Party was able to get that agenda back into the hearts and minds of the majority, that would restore America's greatness.

 

[Moonglow]

And to start things off, I voted "Yes" and also "No, but it could be again" which of course is yes and no.

For me I would not choose to live anywhere else. It is the greatest country in the world. But I also grieve at what we have lost of our greatness in my lifetime, and how much I hope to live to see us regain that greatness.

playing the First Lady?

 

[Moonglow]

I agree that it is foolish to compare the USA, unique among all nations on Earth, to any other country except to note that our founding principles have been superior to those of any other country.

The Tea Party and other movements like it were and are our best hope to regain our former greatness though. The Tea Party is doing its damndest to raise conciousness about those values that made America great--personal freedom/liberty, recognition of unalienable rights, a work ethic thati includes earning what you receive from any source, paying for what we get, fiscal responsibility, personal and government moral integrity that is impossible when controlled by political correctness, and a people who govern themselves free of an authoriarian government who assigns them their rights.

And of course those who want that authoritarian government and the nanny state, and who simply shrug off a sixteen trillion dollar debt and increasing corruption among those who dole out government charity and the recipients of that charity are trashing and demonizing and marginalizing the Tea Party as much as possible. They know they have succeeded when people who think like the Tea Partiers disassociate themselves from the Tea Party or similar groups to avoid the derision and contemptuous comments thrown at them.

The pro nanny state people will not even look at our former greatness, but point to the pockets of social injustice as the sum total of what previous generations were all about. And they shrug off any negatives brought about by their own present ideology as inconsequential.

I am deeply afraid time is running out to restore America to its greatness. After this generation, there will be too few left to speak out for it. And the great experiment will have failed.

Foxfyre, I have some concerns with this statement. While I will agree that there are a number of questions that need answers, the Tea Party seems to have an agenda which is not at all consistent with Constitutional rights. In fact, it's more consistent with corporate rights. Having it's roots based in the machinations of a couple of "robber barons" - brothers by the name of Koch - does nothing to instill a great deal of faith in their long term objective. My greatest fear is that instead of returning us to our post-Revolutionary dogma, the Tea Party is inadvertently (or maybe not) opening the door to corporatism and replacing democracy with plutocracy.

One could argue that the current manipulation of our news media is a necessary first step in establishing control over the people of this country. This was the exact tactic the Soviets used to instill Communism. Although we have the freedom of the press, "grass roots" bodies - which according to many of the documentaries I've watched on the subject - are in fact organized by groups like Americans For Progress, a Koch funded organization. They exert a great deal of influence mainly because they ask the questions that are on everyone's minds but fall short in the answers to those questions. Their main tactic has been to attempt to discredit any idea which is anathema to their positions - and constant ridicule in the press rather than objective examination is not an answer. The main theme, however, is consistently "Being rich is good" - any argument to that statement draws calls of "socialism".

To be fair, the business model of the Tea Party press is sound. Conservative viewership sells products - no doubt about that. In response, other media outlets are attempting to cash in and serve a liberal point of view. It still doesn't make it right, and in the end destroys the objectivity we need to solve the problems we're facing.

There are a number of ways in which we could effect a better economic outlook and save the entitlement programs. The fact is though, that if our system worked the way our models show, entitlements would be minimal on their own even with all the so-called give-aways. One could make the argument that the corporate structure and tax law has shifted in a way which precludes those on the low end of the scale from ever being able to rise above their stations, and that current philosophy will do nothing more than INCREASE the number of people in need. This, to me, is the driving principle behind the Tea Party and has nothing to do with the principles this country began with - where we helped our neighbors to establish themselves all the while knowing that the favor would be repaid in the future.

I'm sorry - this country has lost it's way. But the Tea Party shows me the bleakest possible outcome.

I am a dedicated Tea Partier and I can assure you that though there are those in the Tea Party who have personal social agendas, the vast majority of Tea Party groups do not. The single focus of almost all of the Tea Party is:

1. To restore fiscal integrity in government at all levels.
2. To restore individual liberties as intended by the Constitution.
3. To decrease the size, power, scope, and expense of the Federal government.

That's it. And in my opinion, if the Tea Party was able to get that agenda back into the hearts and minds of the majority, that would restore America's greatness.

please tell me when in the history of the US has those 3 things ever happened.

 

[Foxfyre]

Refocusing on America's greatness, the single one thing that made it so was a concept that the federal government would provide a structure in which the various states could function efficiently and effectivelyas one country without doing violence to each other and would recognize and secure the God given unalienable rights of the people. And that is ALL the federal government would do. It would otherwise leave the people alone to live their lives as they chose, to form whatever sort of societies they wished to have, to govern themselves.

And it is that concept that produced the most powerful, innovative, creative, productive, prosperous, and most free nation the world had ever known without suggesting that other countries don't also have redeeming qualities.

And the more some look to the U.S. federal government to order the sort of society they think they want, the less free, less powerful, less innovative, less creative, less productive, and less prosperous we become.

 

[Connery]

The time is not at hand yet to declare the US the greatest country in the world, besides nationalist threads are a bore. I have been to several countries and I went because they were great in their own way. Every country I have studied was great in their own way.

After 250 years and you don't think America is the greatest Country on the planet? Move your god damn ass we or I don't want your faggot ass here.

I am not interested in nationalist nonsense. I am interested in reality where as people we need to coexist if we are to survive on an international level. As far as moving, I served my country proudly, I continue to serve in various capacities which benefit the US. I even support people like you who make statements that do not carry much intelligence, but, undermine the principals that this great nation was built upon.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre, I have some concerns with this statement. While I will agree that there are a number of questions that need answers, the Tea Party seems to have an agenda which is not at all consistent with Constitutional rights. In fact, it's more consistent with corporate rights. Having it's roots based in the machinations of a couple of "robber barons" - brothers by the name of Koch - does nothing to instill a great deal of faith in their long term objective. My greatest fear is that instead of returning us to our post-Revolutionary dogma, the Tea Party is inadvertently (or maybe not) opening the door to corporatism and replacing democracy with plutocracy.

One could argue that the current manipulation of our news media is a necessary first step in establishing control over the people of this country. This was the exact tactic the Soviets used to instill Communism. Although we have the freedom of the press, "grass roots" bodies - which according to many of the documentaries I've watched on the subject - are in fact organized by groups like Americans For Progress, a Koch funded organization. They exert a great deal of influence mainly because they ask the questions that are on everyone's minds but fall short in the answers to those questions. Their main tactic has been to attempt to discredit any idea which is anathema to their positions - and constant ridicule in the press rather than objective examination is not an answer. The main theme, however, is consistently "Being rich is good" - any argument to that statement draws calls of "socialism".

To be fair, the business model of the Tea Party press is sound. Conservative viewership sells products - no doubt about that. In response, other media outlets are attempting to cash in and serve a liberal point of view. It still doesn't make it right, and in the end destroys the objectivity we need to solve the problems we're facing.

There are a number of ways in which we could effect a better economic outlook and save the entitlement programs. The fact is though, that if our system worked the way our models show, entitlements would be minimal on their own even with all the so-called give-aways. One could make the argument that the corporate structure and tax law has shifted in a way which precludes those on the low end of the scale from ever being able to rise above their stations, and that current philosophy will do nothing more than INCREASE the number of people in need. This, to me, is the driving principle behind the Tea Party and has nothing to do with the principles this country began with - where we helped our neighbors to establish themselves all the while knowing that the favor would be repaid in the future.

I'm sorry - this country has lost it's way. But the Tea Party shows me the bleakest possible outcome.

I am a dedicated Tea Partier and I can assure you that though there are those in the Tea Party who have personal social agendas, the vast majority of Tea Party groups do not. The single focus of almost all of the Tea Party is:

1. To restore fiscal integrity in government at all levels.
2. To restore individual liberties as intended by the Constitution.
3. To decrease the size, power, scope, and expense of the Federal government.

That's it. And in my opinion, if the Tea Party was able to get that agenda back into the hearts and minds of the majority, that would restore America's greatness.

please tell me when in the history of the US has those 3 things ever happened.

Those three things existed when the Constitution was ratified and for well over the next hundred years. But when Teddy Roosevelt turned the Constitution on its head, it started the snowball rolling to create an central authoritarian government that would assign the rights we would have and FDR set the forces in motion to create a nanny state along with it. That snowball has been gaining in size and momentum ever since.

If we do not stop it, the USA will never again be the most powerful, most creative, most innovative, most benevolent, most productive, most prosperous nation.

 

[Unkotare]

The time is not at hand yet to declare the US the greatest country in the world, besides nationalist threads are a bore. I have been to several countries and I went because they were great in their own way. Every country I have studied was great in their own way.

Gosh, you're so worldly! Pretentious douche.

 

[Connery]

The time is not at hand yet to declare the US the greatest country in the world, besides nationalist threads are a bore. I have been to several countries and I went because they were great in their own way. Every country I have studied was great in their own way.

Gosh, you're so worldly! Pretentious douche.

You do not impress me, rest assured I am not trying to impress you. I spoke my view, if you disagree with my views state why that is so.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, Connery is in no way a pretentious douche. He is intelligent, usually civil, and a good poster. But he is widely travelled and no doubt has different perceptions than those of us who aren't as much. I don't require anybody to see it as I see it or to agree with me. (I always hold out hope that others will see the wisdom of my opinions of course. (j/k))

Somebody mentioned that the Swiss aren't beating down our doors to come to the USA. Well I looked it up and there are more Swiss immigrating here than there are Americans immigrating there, but the numbers are fairly small in both cases. Switzerland, that has always been immigrant friendly, has recently been tighting up its immigration laws and imposing restrictions now as they are experiencing more of the unpleasantries of unassimilated immigrants that some of the rest of us are experiencing.

There was a huge influx of Swiss into the U.S. in the late 19th Century--they were among one of the largest immigrant groups at that time. But that was before we started growing a more authoriatarian federal government and putting more of a nanny state in place, and therefore the USA was a much stronger land of opportunity for everybody.

 

[Julia]

Not the greatest, but by far the most inspirational

George Washington gave hope to many likeminded souls that lived under the oppressive tyranny of the British Empire. He went up against the most lethal military of the time and prevailed, throwing off the chains of servitude to the Crown. Many took comfort from that, and consequently braved the Atlantic to play a part in the New World. But America's inherited a lot of its former master's bad habits.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not the greatest, but by far the most inspirational

George Washington gave hope to many likeminded souls that lived under the oppressive tyranny of the British Empire. He went up against the most lethal military of the time and prevailed, throwing off the chains of servitude to the Crown. Many took comfort from that, and consequently braved the Atlantic to play a part in the New World. But America's inherited a lot of its former master's bad habits.

But those bad habits were not incoporated into the U.S. Constitution. The Founders were determined to create for us a new nation in which the people would have their God given rights acknowledged and protected so that they could have true liberty; i.e. the ability to live their lives as they chose. They would govern themselves and be subject to no monarch or papal authority or feudal lord or dictatorship or any other authoritarian government. And it worked beautifully into the 20th Century. But once the government started taking authority to govern away from the people and appeased them with free stuff, liberty has been gradually giving away to totalitarianism again.

I honestly think this may be the last generation that will have the ability to reverse that.

 

[MikeK]

And to start things off, I voted "Yes" and also "No, but it could be again" which of course is yes and no.

Yes and no is the right answer because an honest answer will depend on individual circumstances.

The most important consideration in contemplating an answer to this question is how much money one has. The average American who is capable of maintaining a middle class income level and is unhappily watching the gradual transformation from democracy to plutocracy would probably like living in one of the socialistic Scandinavian nations, such as Denmark, which is thought to be the happiest country in the world.

For the poor there is no better place to live than the U.S.

As for the rich, they can afford to be based in the U.S. and to live like citizens of the world because they are welcome almost everywhere and are able to enjoy the best of everything no matter where they are. The greatest country in the world for them is where they get the most of what they like best for their money.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The time is not at hand yet to declare the US the greatest country in the world, besides nationalist threads are a bore. I have been to several countries and I went because they were great in their own way. Every country I have studied was great in their own way.

After 250 years and you don't think America is the greatest Country on the planet? Move your god damn ass we or I don't want your faggot ass here.

I am not interested in nationalist nonsense. I am interested in reality where as people we need to coexist if we are to survive on an international level. As far as moving, I served my country proudly, I continue to serve in various capacities which benefit the US. I even support people like you who make statements that do not carry much intelligence, but, undermine the principals that this great nation was built upon.

Horse shit. You don't support me in any fucking way you're a blimp with no high expectations.
Now explain what principals do I undermine?

 

[Foxfyre]

Come on Bigreb. We're usually on the same page on a lot of issues, but this has so far been a pretty decent thread with give and take from several different points of view. Most are being quite civil and I have appreciated that a lot. I really REALLY don't want this to be just another USMB pissing match or food fight. You have expressed that this is the greatest country for you and that's great. If you could expand on that instead of beating up on those who see it differently, I would be pleased to hear your point of view.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Come on Bigreb. We're usually on the same page on a lot of issues, but this has so far been a pretty decent thread with give and take from several different points of view. Most are being quite civil and I have appreciated that a lot. I really REALLY don't want this to be just another USMB pissing match or food fight. You have expressed that this is the greatest country for you and that's great. If you could expand on that instead of beating up on those who see it differently, I would be pleased to hear your point of view.

Don't jump on me for defending myself.
I want to know what principals I undermine

 

[Foxfyre]

And to start things off, I voted "Yes" and also "No, but it could be again" which of course is yes and no.

Yes and no is the right answer because an honest answer will depend on individual circumstances.

The most important consideration in contemplating an answer to this question is how much money one has. The average American who is capable of maintaining a middle class income level and is unhappily watching the gradual transformation from democracy to plutocracy would probably like living in one of the socialistic Scandinavian nations, such as Denmark, which is thought to be the happiest country in the world.

For the poor there is no better place to live than the U.S.

As for the rich, they can afford to be based in the U.S. and to live like citizens of the world because they are welcome almost everywhere and are able to enjoy the best of everything no matter where they are. The greatest country in the world for them is where they get the most of what they like best for their money.

It is true that the USA is one of the best places in the world to be poor. Our poor live like kings and queens compared to most of the world's poor. And the very rich can choose pretty much where they will live and, in my opinion, we are blessed that so many choose to live here.

I think most or at least many Americans would find Denmark not all that happy a place and would miss the variety and opportunity and generally higher standard of living they enjoy here. But good for the good people of Denmark who like living in Denmark.

The reason that the nation that the Founders envisioned and risked a great deal of blood and treasure to give us is so great is that Americans are not tied to their circumstances. Those who do not take advantage of the opportunities provided them, who make poor choices, who resign themselves to being less than they can be will not prosper. But in our classless society, we all have the right to seize opportunities, to profit from them, to make good choices, and to aspire to prosper as much as we are able. And in a free society without barriers and restrictions, the goals can be as big and ambitious as we can envision.

 

[MikeK]

I dont think the swiss are beating the door down to get in

Or the Danes. I've never met a Danish immigrant. Or a Swiss. Or an Icelandic.

There's gotta be a reason.

 

[Foxfyre]

Come on Bigreb. We're usually on the same page on a lot of issues, but this has so far been a pretty decent thread with give and take from several different points of view. Most are being quite civil and I have appreciated that a lot. I really REALLY don't want this to be just another USMB pissing match or food fight. You have expressed that this is the greatest country for you and that's great. If you could expand on that instead of beating up on those who see it differently, I would be pleased to hear your point of view.

Don't jump on me for defending myself.
I want to know what principals I undermine

I understand but you did jump on him first.

So ask that. What principles do you undermine? (And I'm guessing that it is jumping on somebody for expressing a conviction that you don't hold. I don't hold it either, but I want to know why somebody holds a different opinion rather than object to them holding it.) Nevertheless, our free speech allows us to speak our mind even if that is objecting to somebody else's opinion. But it also strongly pushes us to attack the opinion rather than the person.

 

[Foxfyre]

I dont think the swiss are beating the door down to get in

Or the Danes. I've never met a Danish immigrant. Or a Swiss. Or an Icelandic.

There's gotta be a reason.

For the second time in this thread we don't get a lot of western European immigrants here at least since reconstruction after WWII and since the Iron Curtain came down. But we still have more western Europeans including Danes and Swiss moving here than we have Americans moving there. And there was a huge influx of Swiss immigration into the USA in the late 19th century. You don't have to hunt real hard to find the descendants of those folks all over the place.

 

[Connery]

After 250 years and you don't think America is the greatest Country on the planet? Move your god damn ass we or I don't want your faggot ass here.

I am not interested in nationalist nonsense. I am interested in reality where as people we need to coexist if we are to survive on an international level. As far as moving, I served my country proudly, I continue to serve in various capacities which benefit the US. I even support people like you who make statements that do not carry much intelligence, but, undermine the principals that this great nation was built upon.

Horse shit. You don't support me in any fucking way you're a blimp with no high expectations.
Now explain what principals do I undermine?

"Now explain what principals do I undermine?" Freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of association.


"Horse shit. You don't support me in any fucking way you're a blimp with no high expectations. " This garbage that you have spewed is the product of a thought process that has fostered ignorance, spread fear, leads to an intellectual imprisonment which takes any society down the path of self destruction. I do not take you seriously, your type of ignorance is a dangerous brand which keeps people in the dark as to what true freedom and democracy is all about.